What's with the new retail PC game packaging?

[shadowfaX]

<< The other thing that confuses me is why companies don't support DVD-ROM on PC games. I've noticed only very few games in the past that went to this format, and now it's been discontinued. DVD-ROM drives can be had for the same price as regular CD-ROM drives, with the added benefit of watching DVD movies too. I've had a dvd-rom drive in the past two systems I've owned, and I'm putting one in my new system! I'm sure I'm not the only one that doesn't have DVD-ROM. What makes this even more stupid, is the new double density CD format that they want to support. Why create a new data format, when we already have the capable DVD-ROM format? >>



yup, BGate had a DVD version. i think most the reason for the companies not putting games on dvd is that dvd roms aren't quite standard on everyone's computer and his cousin's. keeping games on cd-rom is cheaper to produce and people with minimum requirements don't have to upgrade (for multi-cd games that have low requirements). but of course dvd-rom drives and all aren't that expensive nowadays... *shrug* of course whatever i'm saying is arguable since i haven't really read up on game news extensively for awhile due to school and all.

 

[Mucman]

DefRef - You use way too many generalizations to be taken seriously.

 

[CTho9305]

personally, i think they should just let me download an ISO and never deal with any packaging

 

[Mark R]

<< The new small boxes are 5-1/4" x 7-1/2" x 1-1/4" (WxHxD) for 49.21875 cu. in of space >>



That's interesting - I had initially thought that this thread was about DVD style packaging - which seems to be the norm for new games.

Certainly, every new game I've bought recently (in the UK) has been packaged in DVD boxes: it's not just 'budget' titles either, like 'Theme hospital', but the new releases, e.g. 'Return to Castle Wolfenstein' and 'Jedi Knight II'. The majority of new games seem to be supplied in DVD style boxes, although there are a few that use the old style large format boxes.

 

[Mem]

I do prefer the old big PC boxes,you get a nice big manual and map etc,the new ones(DVD style) I`ve noticed don`t always come with a printed manual,you pay full price for a game and get this silly little box with nothing in it ,I can get use to the size if they stick a decent manual in there since I always play RPG type games and a decent manual is a must,I hate those PDF ones you get in the CD.

Also reading the title in the stores is harder,the print is smaller and the stores I go in you get glare off the plastic cases from the lights, so it makes it even harder to read the title of the game case.

 

[Saltin]

For me, it depends on the game. Something like Civ 3 or a Flight Sim, I want a fat manual. The game demands it.

If it's something like Dungeon Siege (which I bought last week and came in a small box), then I could care a less about a manual.

It just seems to me, that alot of the games making it to the shelves these days are geared toward ease of use and intuitive interfaces (eg, Black and White, The Sims, Dungeon Seige). They almost negate a manual by thier very design.

 

[Nefrodite]

they've been under pressure by enviromentalists for a while.. generally games are big boxes with almost nothing inside. sure maybe a few games out of the batch require huge manuals, but they are not the rule. frankly i'd rather they come in dvd cases for many of the games that don't need manuals.

 

[MrCoyote]

<< they've been under pressure by enviromentalists for a while.. >>



Ha...enviromentalists. If some organization or individual REALLY cared about our environment they would do something about oil and gas companies and your car's automobile engine. The gas engine is so OLD and no matter what kind of filter you put on your car, there will always be noxious emmissions polluting our environment. Yet, we have the technology and other forms of clean energy that could run our cars, and no one does s**t about it. Everyone just opens their mouth and talks about how this could be better.....blah blah blah. People in the future, our grandchildren and great-great-great-great grandchildren are going to think our society was just plain damn stupid. The year 2002 and we still burn polluting fuel. At least some car companies had the guts to come out with hybrid electric/gas models this year.

Besides, most cardboard today has some recycled material in it, so it isn't wasting as much as it would if non-recycled. Even game boxes are recycled paper.

 

[MrCoyote]

I noticed some of you are from the UK saying that games there come in DVD packaging. I orignally meant this thread to talk about the newly small boxes showing up in the USA market. These boxes are not DVD plastic boxes. They are small cardboard boxes. Where has creative freedom gone? If companies are forced to use small boxes, than all manuals for all upcoming games are essentially going to look the same. There will be no originality and no artistic freedom to show. I personally liked the Baldur's Gate II, and other games manuals. Some games just wouldn't be the same without a good manual and other extras thrown into the box. Diablo II Collector's Edition couldn't have been released in the smaller boxes. It included 3 cdroms, 1 DVD, 1 audio cd, plus other stuff. So I still think special editions of games will come in larger boxes.

Now for those people complaining about having to use 20 keys to play a game... Don't buy the game. It's that easy. Go play some human simulation game(Do I dare mention the title? S*M's) or some dumbed down game, if you don't have the reflexes to use more than a few buttons on a console gamepad.

 

[Nefrodite]

Where has creative freedom gone? If companies are forced to use small boxes, than all manuals for all upcoming games are essentially going to look the same. There will be no originality and no artistic freedom to show. I personally liked the Baldur's Gate II, and other games manuals. Some games just wouldn't be the same without a good manual and other extras thrown into the box. Diablo II Collector's Edition couldn't have been released in the smaller boxes. It included 3 cdroms, 1 DVD, 1 audio cd, plus other stuff. So I still think special editions of games will come in larger boxes.

you cited two examples where small boxes wouldn't work. but many games like fps don't require huge manuals, they used to come in big boxes that were mostly empty. its not a law or anything, its just that a company has finally done the rational thing. sure, you can still make your game box garish to get peoples attention, but generally it doesn't mean your going to sell anymore people aren't stupid.

 

[Sunner]

I miss the old times when most games were actually pretty clever, and had good manuals that were worth the paper they were printed on.

But I agree with DefRef, most games these days dont require a manual, I cant remember the last time I played I game that I needed a manual for.
Well actually I can, Jagged Alliance 2, figuring out the basic gameplay was easy, but really learning it required quite a bit of peaking in the manual.
And the manual mostly had the answers as well, now thats a good manual, for a kickss game

 

[Mem]

<< I noticed some of you are from the UK saying that games there come in DVD packaging. I orignally meant this thread to talk about the newly small boxes showing up in the USA market. These boxes are not DVD plastic boxes. They are small cardboard boxes >>



You mean like Might & Magic 9 box? Well even in Europe we are getting stiffed on that as well,the European version of that game does not come with a manual ,I read from other RPG forums the US version of that game does ,as to the box size it`s not bad & better then the DVD style ones but still no included manual for RPG games like MM9 for we Europeans,I hope Morrowind has a manual.

 

[GrumpyMan]

If they can spend less on packaging and keep the price the same then that means more profit.

 

[skace]

-----
Common occurance:

Games come out. I go to Compusa/BestBuy/Online/Wherever and buy 2-3 games. I bring these games home and dump them out of the box. I now stack the manuals in a pile, the CDs in a pile, and throw out all the extra cards, certificates, offers, and boxes in the trash. I then go through the manuals and see which ones are even worth keeping, then I throw the others away. I usually end up with 0 manuals and 3 game CDs. Thats right, I started with 3 giant boxes and ended with 3 CDs.
------

Now, are there games out there that do use up the entirity of a large box? Yea, a few of them: some sims, some large RPGS, etc. Are they the norm or the exception to the norm? The exception. The fact is most games that come out end up being a giant air-filled box. I would MUCH MUCH MUCH rather buy games in DVD cases. The booklette side of a DVD case can hold a very decent sized manual (20 pages at least) with enough room for 99% of the games out there. What can the exceptions do? Ever heard of bundled software? Ever buy a book on a C++ language and a get a CD with it? If a flight sim has a 600 page manual, put the manual on the outside and attach the dvd case to the cover! Why does every game need to be this big?!!? Why must I empty my trashcan everytime I buy a new game?!

Now, what I havn't even touched on is the fact that 90% of the time, the manual is OUTA DATE! Ever go into the readme.txt in a new game and read the "manual updates". Most games have online / html manuals now that are updated constantly as well as a FAQ. This ends up being much more useful because the developers realize that they didn't explain something as well as it needed to be and they have the chance to reword it.

In the end, I will rejoice when I can buy my pc games on DVDcases like I can my PS2 collection and my movie collection. It would be nice to throw them all on the same shelf and sort them. Right now I have 2 3-ring binders for PC games, I chuck the CD case and throw the cd in the binder.

My trashcan thanks the smaller cases.

 

[JellyBaby]

<< Thats right, I started with 3 giant boxes and ended with 3 CDs. >>

So what? For someone who plays simulations, rpgs and wargames it would be 3 for 3.

<< Are they the norm or the exception to the norm? >>

Unfortunately they are now the exception because of the dumbing down of PC games over the last decade.

<< If a flight sim has a 600 page manual, put the manual on the outside and attach the dvd case to the cover! >>

Publishers may not have the option to deliver larger form-factors. It may not be their decision.

<< Now, what I havn't even touched on is the fact that 90% of the time, the manual is OUTA DATE! >>

Prematurely released games is another topic.

My major gripe is that the small box size will eventually devolve into the even smaller DVD case format. Games will cost the same, no savings will be passed onto us. Game design may or may not improve to give us the in-game help we will desperately need for those "complex" games some of us still enjoy. Heck they may even stick to making games that don't need manuals like nearly all FPS. More dumbing down of games, just what we need.

 

[skace]

First off, your assumption is that I don't play sims, rpgs, or wargames. I've got a logitech force feedback joystick, I like space sims (not so many regular plane sims), and I also like RPGs. I've got a level 67 master in Dungeon Siege. I've got 3 level 50+ characters in Everquest. I have avatars in several muds (Realms of Despair, Gargoyles Tower). I have the Ultima collectors edition. I had a lumberjack GM in UO and owned a house. I just beat Wizardry 8 and also played some of the very first ones as a child on my dad's 286. I got pretty damn far in Moria as a kid (want to bring up first generation PC games?). I beat BG1, BG1 Exp, BG2, BG for PS2 and have my char saved to a backup directory for importing in to NeverWinter Night. I beat stonekeep. I still have my quest for glory character saved to a floppy disk from the old QfG games. Did I mention I like RPGs? Well, you get the point.

"Unfortunately they are now the exception because of the dumbing down of PC games over the last decade."

I don't think games are dumbing down because of the "nintendo kiddies" or any other lame factor. I think games are dumbing down because the focus has shifted. Where you once had a poorly graphical single player game that relied largly on its plot / depth / character developement you now have vast multiplayer worlds with amazing graphics that no longer rely on those things. Game developers choose to focus more on these multiplayer worlds because character interaction is much more powerful in a real operating world. This focus has already started to end though, as games are shifting back towards strong singleplayer plots / etc. Morrowind will prove that comment.

"Publishers may not have the option to deliver larger form-factors. It may not be their decision."

Then that would change my view. My view is based on the fact that if a game really requires a 900 page manual then it can add one.

"My major gripe is that the small box size will eventually devolve into the even smaller DVD case format. Games will cost the same, no savings will be passed onto us."

I would PAY MORE for the convience of having my games in a DVD case. Frankly, I tire of throwing all that crap away and then emptying my trashcan.

And if I was going to point to an RPG that required a book more than anything, I would say Everquest. Nobody uses a manual in Everquest because they rely on each other, as a community, to figure things out. Everquest also has a decent /help feature and an ingame tutorial to help you with understanding things. But as a multiplayer world with many commands added all the time, tons of maps, and huge websites dedicated to the documenting of the game I think it would easily take the cake.

 

[giocopiano]

CDs cost VIRTUALLY NOTHING to manufacturer now. What is the average re-released game? A cheap CD, a little plastic box, a small sheet of cover paper to show what you're buying. This does not cost the publisher more than $1. Prove me wrong if you have access to large scale trade prices. Selling games without the financial commitment of paper manuals has meant publishers clutter up the store shelves with "low-rent" smaller form factor boxes in the budget market. Except that the software wasn't actually very cheap, and wasn't usually very good, and not necessarily much use without a manual. Now the typically ignorant management of the average chainstore has realised games can come in smaller boxes, he pressurises publishers to do so all the time so he can maximise his shop space return. Genius. So now new games will often be forced to cut back on the manual even if they want to print a full one.

 

[Nefrodite]

well, the cost of creating a game has gone up. we now expect a lot more, professional voice actors, nice music tracks, actual plot lol i think it takes more people to actually make games now or atleast longer.

 

[ObiDon]

<< I tire of throwing all that crap away and then emptying my trashcan. >>


Throw it into the fireplace! Watching stuff burn is more fun than playing the game itself!

It never ceases to amaze me just how much whiners there are here at AT. Any minor aspect of life changes and suddenly you have everybody screaming about how their basic human rights have been violated and how corporations shouldn't be allowed to turn a profit.
Calm down, guys, it's just a friggin box! Don't worry, The Man will figure out how to compensate for the lack of a small or nonexistent manual by building it into the game. Maybe he'll even think of using a larger box when absolutely necessary. What a novel idea! :Q Manuals were previously required because computers had less memory and hard drive space. Now, with all those extra resources, better player interfaces can be designed. Such as the little help pop-ups you see when you hold the pointer over an item, area, or icon.
Of course, when that happens, everyone will be in here bitching about bloatware :|

 

[JellyBaby]

The cost of making games has gone way up, no doubt about it. That, plus the greed inhierent in our new system means no cost savings will be passed on to us.

That doesn't bother me too much. Every day it seems there's consolidation or layoffs in PC gaming. Just yesterday I heard that 2/3 of the New World (Might and Magic, Heroes, etc.) staff were laid off because of 3DO's "misfortunes". So I don't feel entitled to any cost savings I should get because of cheaper manufacturing costs. I would be nice, though.

Btw, Nefrodite, another reason for increased production costs is Nvidia and ATI pushing so hard with new video stuff. Supporting that...all the design work and artwork...adds a huge amount to the overall cost. I just think it sucks future games might only be able to hold 1 or 2 discs worth of that great art....simply because of a stupid packaging size restriction.

 

[Heraclitus]

I'd be overjoyed if I could download games and .pdf manuals, and pay online with my credit card. Retail stores, and their oh-so-contentious box-size changes, are parasitic and do not, to my mind, add any value to my purchases.

 

[MustPost]

I like it. It isn't even about saving trees. Its about saving shelf space. This saves stores more money and possibly allows them to have a better selection.

 

[DefRef]

It's absolutely ASTOUNDING how incredibly OBTUSE (look it up!) some of you INSIST on being. When I clearly say that MOST boxes are way too big, but that certain game may require larger manuals and packaging and that would be fine, you frigging crybabies just howl again, "WE WANT BIG BOXES WITH PRETTY PICTURES!!!! WAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!"

You've also REFUSED to answer my question: Considering you've NEVER received more than a jewel case with your PSX and DC games and a DVD case with your XBox and PS2 games and they cost $50, WHY THE HELL IS IT A SIGN OF EVIL CORPORATE GREED WHEN PC GAME MAKERS CUT DOWN ON THE EXCESS PACKAGING?!?!?!?!?!?!?

CDs and DVD and console games sell just fine with their small packages, but for some reason, PC games require that they be packed in a GIANT BOX OF AIR that will be thrown away by 90% of consumers within 10 minutes of getting in the house! (At least according to this thread's crybabies.) MADNESS!!!!:|

Whenever I see the word "greed" around ATF, I can tell that it's someone who's probably younger than 20 and/or never had to pay taxes or work for a LIVING. They believe that making a profit is EVIL for corporations, but they'd like a raise (if they work) from the boss. How does ANY business stay in business? By making a PROFIT. No profits, no business and no business means no JOBS and no job means no money to buy ANY games, regardless of the size of the box!!!

Grow the hell up!!!!:|

 

[Heraclitus]

Yeesh.

Try this. I hear it evens out one's mood.

 

[Mucman]

DefRef - Who the heck are you talking to?