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What's the story with Bush and Hydrogen Cars?

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No offense, but why are you talking about doing exactly that ?
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Originally posted by: Roger
Another point that needs to be made, Hydrogen powered vehicles emit pollution as well, don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

Our atmosphere contains large amounts of nitrogen, when this nitrogen is exposed to high pressures and temperatures it breaks down and combines with other elelments to form nitrogen oxides which is a major pollutant.
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Please explain to me in detail where the oxides of nitrogen are going ?
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Because you specifically said that "Hydrogen powered vehicles emit pollution" so I thought I would bring some new information to the table.

-Spy
 
Exactly right now it takes more energy to make hydrogen fuel than you will get back. Plus we already have cars that can get 60-70 mpg.
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We do? What kind of car is that, and who do you know that drives one?
 
Because you specifically said that "Hydrogen powered vehicles emit pollution" so I thought I would bring some new information to the table.
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Checkmate 🙂
 
Well, he claims the first car driven by a child born today will be hydrogen-powered, so I assume he's planning on raising the driving age to 60.
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LOL . . . it is curious why Bush would float such a Spruce Goose considering the domestic automakers have finally conceded that the hybrid market is worth investment. If Bush had subsidized the domestics they might have been encouraged to move products to market. Life is so bad at GM that they bought a couple hundred thousand engines from Honda (or Toyota) instead of invest the money in improving in-house engine design.
 
Originally posted by: a2k
Exactly right now it takes more energy to make hydrogen fuel than you will get back. Plus we already have cars that can get 60-70 mpg.
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We do? What kind of car is that, and who do you know that drives one?
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Well actually we do, there is the electric/gasoline hybrind by Honda called the Inspiron that can get up to 70MPG on the freeway. I think they are going to come out with a hybrid Civic as well. The problem with these vehicles is that we still are in a position where we need oil to run them (even if it is less).

I saw an interesting article a few months back (wish I had bookmarked it) stating that the average MPG of all the new cars sold last year was actually lower than the average MPG 10 years ago (damn SUVs and trucks).

-Spy
 
If the US corporate types had sense, they would realize that playing catch up with the Japanese and Germans is useless. They are too far behind the curve. Instead, they could invest heavily in R&D for fuel cells and associated technologies. The spin offs alone would be worth a fortune. "Want to be patriotic? By a technology advanced AMERICAN car. No polution and it frees us from the stranglehold of evil empires"...and such. Too forward thinking though. I remember the game of changing the trim for a new model year, because they knew that what the people wanted and needed.
 
Originally posted by: spyordie007
Originally posted by: a2k
Exactly right now it takes more energy to make hydrogen fuel than you will get back. Plus we already have cars that can get 60-70 mpg.
Click to expand...
We do? What kind of car is that, and who do you know that drives one?
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Well actually we do, there is the electric/gasoline hybrind by Honda called the Inspiron that can get up to 70MPG on the freeway. I think they are going to come out with a hybrid Civic as well. The problem with these vehicles is that we still are in a position where we need oil to run them (even if it is less).

I saw an interesting article a few months back (wish I had bookmarked it) stating that the average MPG of all the new cars sold last year was actually lower than the average MPG 10 years ago (damn SUVs and trucks).

-Spy
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The Honda you referring to is the Insight, which is a small 2-seat coupe and has been for sale since 2000... I believe. The Civic Hybrid has been on the market since early 2002.
 
Life is so bad at GM that they bought a couple hundred thousand engines from Honda (or Toyota) instead of invest the money in improving in-house engine design.
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LOL Your GM bashing is starting to sound like Hagbard's US bashing.

Humor me: Tell me which GM cars these Honda (or Toyota) engines will be installed in.



You kinow its ironic that life must be so bad at Mazda that they have to purchase engines from Ford (for the new 6) instead of investing that money in improving in-house engine design.

Finding examples of auto companies purchasing engines that are manufactured by their competitors is a common occurance--and have nothing to do with "life being bad", it is a simple matter of weighing development and production costs .vs the availability and pricing offered by another manufacturer for a specific application. GM manufactures very little of the componentry of the vehicles they market themselves--as do most other manufacturers. Tell me, is life so sad at Honda that they have to purchase radio speakers from Bose, or restraint systems from Takata?
rolleye.gif
 
GM bashing by the Washington Post

General Motors Corp. yesterday said it would buy low-emission V-6 engines and transmissions from Honda Motor Co. as part of a new "worldwide partnership" with the Japanese automaker that will allow GM to meet California's tough new emission standards.

So far, Honda is considered to be leading the race to meet the new standards, with its V-6 Ultra Low Emission Vehicle engines.

In exchange for Honda's engines, GM will provide the Japanese automaker with diesel engines for sale primarily in Europe. The engines will be produced by GM's joint venture with Isuzu Motors Ltd. in Canada.

 
Originally posted by: spyordie007
Originally posted by: a2k
Exactly right now it takes more energy to make hydrogen fuel than you will get back. Plus we already have cars that can get 60-70 mpg.
Click to expand...

We do? What kind of car is that, and who do you know that drives one?
Click to expand...
Well actually we do, there is the electric/gasoline hybrind by Honda called the Inspiron that can get up to 70MPG on the freeway. I think they are going to come out with a hybrid Civic as well. The problem with these vehicles is that we still are in a position where we need oil to run them (even if it is less).

I saw an interesting article a few months back (wish I had bookmarked it) stating that the average MPG of all the new cars sold last year was actually lower than the average MPG 10 years ago (damn SUVs and trucks).

-Spy
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Okay, so we do. Actually, *we* don't (at least I don't, and I don't know anyone who does), but we could. It seems like the auto manufactures are targeting the currenct hybrids at people who want to be radical and want to feel like they are sacrificing for the economy. They emphasize "no back seat!", "ugly futuristic design!", "no acceleration!", "short driving range!" so people that own them can really feel like they're giving something up for the environment.

When are they gonna have a 60+ mpg car for the mass market that people we know actually own and drive? I think your point about the average MPG dropping proves the point that even though there are super-efficient cars out there, nobody's driving them.
 
Originally posted by: Corn
Life is so bad at GM that they bought a couple hundred thousand engines from Honda (or Toyota) instead of invest the money in improving in-house engine design.
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LOL Your GM bashing is starting to sound like Hagbard's US bashing.

Humor me: Tell me which GM cars these Honda (or Toyota) engines will be installed in.
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Well, Lutz realized that because there is a dearth of resources for R&D in the US division in comparison to the need of such a large corporation... he prolly figured why waste the resources we have overseas. Holden has been making great sports sedans and sport coupes with various small blocks for a long time. Use it for a real Pontiac (GTO). Toyota is partnered directly with GM on the Vibe since GM needed something for the young active buyer. GM is also involved with Toyota on the new Sunfire/Cavalier iirc.

Back on topic... I figure it would be easier to move toward gas/electric hybrids and diesel power as an intermediate step before full electric and hydrogen powered cars. I'm not sure too many companies are looking at H power other than BMW.
 
Originally posted by: spyordie007
Originally posted by: Roger
Another point that needs to be made, Hydrogen powered vehicles emit pollution as well, don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

Our atmosphere contains large amounts of nitrogen, when this nitrogen is exposed to high pressures and temperatures it breaks down and combines with other elelments to form nitrogen oxides which is a major pollutant.
Click to expand...
The exaust out of an internal combustion engine running on Hydrogen is CLEANER than the air that enters the engine. Yes you are correct in that some of the Nitrogen in the air can form nitrogen oxides (just like gasoline) but burning hydrgogen in an internal combustion breaks down existing polutants so the exaust you get is technically cleaner than the air that comes into the engine. We have done tests to prove this.

Fuel-cell powered cars do not "burn" hydrogen and do not produce any oxides of nitrogen.
Hydrogen cars are not a great idea, except in the limited sense that the will tend to move polution out of city centers.
Hydrogen is not an energy source, it is an energy storage medium. I suspect that, as is the case for electric cars, you will produce more polution overall, unless you use a clean source of power (solar, wind, nuclear, etc.) to produce the hydrogen (or electricity) in the first place.
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Exactly right now it takes more energy to make hydrogen fuel than you will get back. Plus we already have cars that can get 60-70 mpg.
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You are right in that Hydrogen is not an engergy source, it is mearly an energy storage medium. The reason for persuing hydrogen as the storage medium rather than batteries (remember that a fuel-cell car is just an electric car that has a fuel cell that provides the electricity) is that you get better energy density, it weighs less, recharging is essentially instant, and the "fuel" lasts forever (whereas a rechargable battery will lose its charge over time). The great thing about persuing this (as far as the Bush administration is concerned) is it allows us to still have our mobility while reducing our need for middle east oil (energy). The energy supply can come from anywhere, I personally would like to see it come from renewable resources as that would give us a virtually unlimited energy supply...

If you have further questions please visit our website:
American Hydrogen Association (us)
American Hydrogen Association (Arizona)
Or post your questions on our forum
(I wince hoping the bandwidth will hold 😀)

-Spy
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Again, where are you getting your hydrogen from?
At this time, you get the vast majority of it by cracking methane, ie. natural gas. So, you're really just adding an expensive processing step into our use of fossil fuels. There are some promising ideas regarding organic or nuclear production of hydrogen, but unless those pan out, I don't see the point..

Here's a good link on Hydrogen Production
 
Being that the Bush Administration is so staunchly against any tightening of higher standards posed on the Auto industry, I find this announcement as quite confusing.

I can only contribute this little tidbid from his State of the Union address as directed towards other countries (much like his AIDS agenda) to show that the US is not interested in Iraq because of its oil.
 
Also from that article:

GM President G. Richard Wagoner Jr. said in a statement that the new partnership reflects GM's strategy of using its global reach to bring new products to market quickly. "We have tremendous respect for Honda's technical heritage. Together we can strengthen our abilities to develop future technologies," Wagoner said.

The new alliance also appears to answer questions about Honda's ability to remain independent.

Hiroyuki Yoshino, president of Honda Motor Co., said in a statement that "Honda is firmly committed to an independent path. This relationship will strengthen our ability to maintain this course."

Arvin Mueller, the group vice president in charge of GM's powertrain operations, said the deal announced last night has been in the works for seven or eight months. He called the agreement the start of a "long-term relationship" between the two companies to work on several powertrain projects."

Mueller, like Honda, denied that this might be the first step toward a merger with Honda.

Precise details of how the engine agreement would work were not available last night. Mueller said the two companies have agreed in principle on the partnership but still must work out specifics.

He said it was not clear whether the V-6 engines would be manufactured at company plants in the United States or in Japan.

Honda and General Motors presidents Hiroyuki Yoshino, left, and G. Richard Wagoner Jr. said that no merger lies ahead.
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Wow, Life is so bad at Honda that they bought a couple hundred thousand engines from GM instead of investing the money in improving in-house diesel engine design. At least they can now stay "independent" thanks to GM's diesel engine expertise.........

That article doesn't "bash" GM in any way, your ignorant commentary on the other hand.......
 
American car companies are behind in hybrid vehicle production and technology, so maybe Bush is trying to ensure the US won't be asleep on Hydrogen too!
 
Originally posted by: spyordie007
Okay, if you want more hybrid info I went and looked it up:
Honda Civic hybrid, 51MPG gasoline/electric hybrid
Honda Insight hybrid, 61/68MPG gasoline/electric Hybrid
Both start at about $20,000
Toyota Prius, 51MPG gasoline/electric hybrid
Starts at about $20,500
Ford Escape, 30-40MPG gasoline/electric hybrid (mini)SUV
Wont be released until late this year, est. starting price $30,000

-Spy
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That Ford Escape seems pretty cool. Now where's the hybrid accord?
 
Originally posted by: Roger
I am speaking about burning Hydrogen fuel in a internal combustion engine, not in a fuel cell.

The oxides of nitrogen are not going anywhere, however things such as carbon monoxide and other polluntants get broken down at those high pressures and temperatures. I'm not arguing that the oxides of nitrogen are not created as a byproduct I'm just saying that those are created when burning gasoline also and that if you are going to use an internal combustion engine hydrogen is much cleaner.
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Nitrogen is in our atmosphere in great quantities, this nitrogen is inducted into the engine where it is exposed to high heat and pressure creating nitrogen oxides, this occurs no matter what kind of fuel is burned in a internal combustion engine.
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So long as it's creating N2O, instead of NO2, I'll be happy.
 
Wow, such hostility . . . do you need a hug? My take would be that Honda didn't buy a diesel (from the Europeans) b/c Honda didn't have anything the Europeans needed. GM desperately needed a low emission engine, hence the deal made sense for both parties. If President Bush truly cares about a clean future, he would start by cleaning up the present. Domestic automakers (and their congressional allies like Dingle) sabotaged legitmate efforts during the 90s to develop better vehicles. GM's engine purchase is indicative of their lack of environmental vision . . . that and they are a little gun shy after their electric car bombed.
 
Originally posted by: Corn
Also from that article:
GM President G. Richard Wagoner Jr. said in a statement that the new partnership reflects GM's strategy of using its global reach to bring new products to market quickly. "We have tremendous respect for Honda's technical heritage. Together we can strengthen our abilities to develop future technologies," Wagoner said. The new alliance also appears to answer questions about Honda's ability to remain independent. Hiroyuki Yoshino, president of Honda Motor Co., said in a statement that "Honda is firmly committed to an independent path. This relationship will strengthen our ability to maintain this course." Arvin Mueller, the group vice president in charge of GM's powertrain operations, said the deal announced last night has been in the works for seven or eight months. He called the agreement the start of a "long-term relationship" between the two companies to work on several powertrain projects." Mueller, like Honda, denied that this might be the first step toward a merger with Honda. Precise details of how the engine agreement would work were not available last night. Mueller said the two companies have agreed in principle on the partnership but still must work out specifics. He said it was not clear whether the V-6 engines would be manufactured at company plants in the United States or in Japan. Honda and General Motors presidents Hiroyuki Yoshino, left, and G. Richard Wagoner Jr. said that no merger lies ahead.
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Wow, Life is so bad at Honda that they bought a couple hundred thousand engines from GM instead of investing the money in improving in-house diesel engine design. At least they can now stay "independent" thanks to GM's diesel engine expertise......... That article doesn't "bash" GM in any way, your ignorant commentary on the other hand.......
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Bashing is fun, but it hardly useful. There is a need and an opportunity. Instead I think we will see jockying for sales positions and attempts at mergers.
 
Again, hwere are you getting your hydrogen from?
At this time, you get the vast majority of it by cracking methane, ie. natural gas. So, you're really just adding an expensive processing step into our use of fossil fuels. There are some promising idea regarding organic or nuclear production of hydrogen, but unless those pan out, I don't see the point..
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Right now we have a single electrolyzer that runs off of several solar panels, it's not enough to run our 4 hydrogen-powered vehicles so you are absolutly right in your sceptacism as for getting it right now.
The two ways we advocate obtainin hydrogen are:
[*]Electrolosys (with the electricity coming from a renewable source)
[*]biomass (methane reformation from bio-waste, with solid carbon and fertilizer as your byproducts).

There are a few commercial hydrogen refueling stations in California and I'm not sure where they get their hydrogen from, however we (humankind) will hopfully take unused power from the grid and put it into storage by means of electrolyzing water (hydrogen and oxygen). We could than run our "on demand" needs from hydrogen (automobiles, stoves, etc.).

-Spy
 
That article doesn't "bash" GM in any way, your ignorant commentary on the other hand.......
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Sorry I forgot the
rolleye.gif
after the link. My commentary would be ignorant if I lacked insight into the topic. Clearly, my insight goes far beyond b/c indeed GM lacks the expertise to make low emission vehicles economically. I think you were searching for some term like idiotic . . . implying I lack the mental capability to properly evaluate facts at hand.
 
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