What's the story with Bush and Hydrogen Cars?

[flavio]

What do you suppose the story is with the Bush hydrogen car plan? Hydrogen cars sound like a great idea, but do you suppose this is better technology than electric cars?

Here's an excerpt from a Wired article:

In January, the Bush administration scrapped a $1.5 billion Clinton-era program to develop an 80-mpg car by 2004. Instead, the White House launched FreedomCAR (the "CAR" stands for cooperative automotive research), promising $125 million next year plus more later to help automakers in pre-competitive hydrogen power research. The initiative set no hard goal or deadline for producing an H2-powered car, so environmentalists see it as a Big Oil/Big Three/GOP plot to distract the public from the need to mandate immediate, radical increases in fuel efficiency. The New York Times wrote that the only freedom that FreedomCAR will bestow is on "the manufacturers, now relieved of the obligation (absent strong new fuel economy standards) to produce serious breakthroughs in the next few years."

From here.

 

[AU Tiger]

BMW already has a prototype 7 series that runs on Hydrogen. If the US manufacturers don't catch up with BMW on the hydrogen powered automobile they may be left behind. Automobile companies are giving up on electrical power because of cost and limitations of electrical power.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Potentially much better. You could go further and faster in a fuel cell car than a battery, and if you do it right you do not add to the carbon load. I dont know how giving 125 million to auto makers for this is going to help much, but were going to see.

 

[Armitage]

Hydrogen cars are not a great idea, except in the limited sense that the will tend to move polution out of city centers.
Hydrogen is not an energy source, it is an energy storage medium. I suspect that, as is the case for electric cars, you will produce more polution overall, unless you use a clean source of power (solar, wind, nuclear, etc.) to produce the hydrogen (or electricity) in the first place.

 

[BatmanNate]

IMHO this is just an appeasal to draw fire from scrapping plans for the '04 car and funneling the funds to more important ventures. (important being entirely relative to the state of mind of the administration, mind you)

 

[Ferocious]

lol.

Not to long ago, Bush was blasting Gore for his desire to get rid of the internal combustion engine.

 

[exp]

What's the story with Bush and Hydrogen Cars?

Well, he claims the first car driven by a child born today will be hydrogen-powered, so I assume he's planning on raising the driving age to 60.

 

[flavio]

But the changeover to so called hydrogen age will be a bit more costly. In fact, Argonne Laboratory, a U.S. Department of Energy research lab operated by the University of Chicago, recently estimated that a network of national hydrogen filling stations allowing fuel cell cars drivers convenient fuel access will cost between $100 billion to $600 billion, depending on hydrogen demand.

"There's something in our industry called the chicken and egg dilemma, and that is, you can't get the vehicles on the road without the infrastructure, but no one's going to build the infrastructure without the vehicles," said James Winebrake, Science and Technology professor at James Madison University in Virginia.

From here

It sounds like 125 Million may be a drop in the bucket.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: ergeorge
Hydrogen cars are not a great idea, except in the limited sense that the will tend to move polution out of city centers. Hydrogen is not an energy source, it is an energy storage medium. I suspect that, as is the case for electric cars, you will produce more polution overall, unless you use a clean source of power (solar, wind, nuclear, etc.) to produce the hydrogen (or electricity) in the first place.

Thats why I say 125 mil isnt going to cut it. Much need to be done on the production side, then there is infrastructure. Something like when we developed he Interstates may be needed.

 

[Queasy]

Hydrogen cars work and are much cleaner than any other alternative plus has the added bonus of relieving the US dependency on foreign oil. The main hold up in the process is extracting hydrogen to be used for the fuel. Hydrogen is found everywhere in nature but not by itself. Currently, the process of extracting hydrogen is costly.

I read an article on this today but I can't remember where now

 

Another point that needs to be made, Hydrogen powered vehicles emit pollution as well, don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

Our atmosphere contains large amounts of nitrogen, when this nitrogen is exposed to high pressures and temperatures it breaks down and combines with other elelments to form nitrogen oxides which is a major pollutant.

 

[rudder]

Originally posted by: ergeorge
Hydrogen cars are not a great idea, except in the limited sense that the will tend to move polution out of city centers.
Hydrogen is not an energy source, it is an energy storage medium. I suspect that, as is the case for electric cars, you will produce more polution overall, unless you use a clean source of power (solar, wind, nuclear, etc.) to produce the hydrogen (or electricity) in the first place.

Exactly right now it takes more energy to make hydrogen fuel than you will get back. Plus we already have cars that can get 60-70 mpg.

 

[Armitage]

Originally posted by: Queasy
Hydrogen cars work and are much cleaner than any other alternative plus has the added bonus of relieving the US dependency on foreign oil. The main hold up in the process is extracting hydrogen to be used for the fuel. Hydrogen is found everywhere in nature but not by itself. Currently, the process of extracting hydrogen is costly.

I read an article on this today but I can't remember where now

Not really. IIRC, the current prefered method for producing hydrogen is by cracking hydrocarbons, methane in particular.

 

[spyordie007]

Originally posted by: Roger
Another point that needs to be made, Hydrogen powered vehicles emit pollution as well, don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

Our atmosphere contains large amounts of nitrogen, when this nitrogen is exposed to high pressures and temperatures it breaks down and combines with other elelments to form nitrogen oxides which is a major pollutant.

The exaust out of an internal combustion engine running on Hydrogen is CLEANER than the air that enters the engine. Yes you are correct in that some of the Nitrogen in the air can form nitrogen oxides (just like gasoline) but burning hydrgogen in an internal combustion breaks down existing polutants so the exaust you get is technically cleaner than the air that comes into the engine. We have done tests to prove this.

Fuel-cell powered cars do not "burn" hydrogen and do not produce any oxides of nitrogen.

Hydrogen cars are not a great idea, except in the limited sense that the will tend to move polution out of city centers.
Hydrogen is not an energy source, it is an energy storage medium. I suspect that, as is the case for electric cars, you will produce more polution overall, unless you use a clean source of power (solar, wind, nuclear, etc.) to produce the hydrogen (or electricity) in the first place.

Exactly right now it takes more energy to make hydrogen fuel than you will get back. Plus we already have cars that can get 60-70 mpg.

You are right in that Hydrogen is not an engergy source, it is mearly an energy storage medium. The reason for persuing hydrogen as the storage medium rather than batteries (remember that a fuel-cell car is just an electric car that has a fuel cell that provides the electricity) is that you get better energy density, it weighs less, recharging is essentially instant, and the "fuel" lasts forever (whereas a rechargable battery will lose its charge over time). The great thing about persuing this (as far as the Bush administration is concerned) is it allows us to still have our mobility while reducing our need for middle east oil (energy). The energy supply can come from anywhere, I personally would like to see it come from renewable resources as that would give us a virtually unlimited energy supply...

If you have further questions please visit our website:
American Hydrogen Association (us)
American Hydrogen Association (Arizona)
Or post your questions on our forum
(I wince hoping the bandwidth will hold )

-Spy

 

The exaust out of an internal combustion engine running on Hydrogen is CLEANER than the air that enters the engine. Yes you are correct in that some of the Nitrogen in the air can form nitrogen oxides (just like gasoline) but burning hydrgogen in an internal combustion breaks down existing polutants so the exaust you get is technically cleaner than the air that comes into the engine. We have done tests to prove this.

Please explain to me in detail where the oxides of nitrogen are going ?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Originally posted by: Roger
Another point that needs to be made, Hydrogen powered vehicles emit pollution as well, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Our atmosphere contains large amounts of nitrogen, when this nitrogen is exposed to high pressures and temperatures it breaks down and combines with other elelments to form nitrogen oxides which is a major pollutant.

I am not sure where this happens in fuel cells.

 

[spyordie007]

Originally posted by: Roger

The exaust out of an internal combustion engine running on Hydrogen is CLEANER than the air that enters the engine. Yes you are correct in that some of the Nitrogen in the air can form nitrogen oxides (just like gasoline) but burning hydrgogen in an internal combustion breaks down existing polutants so the exaust you get is technically cleaner than the air that comes into the engine. We have done tests to prove this.

Please explain to me in detail where the oxides of nitrogen are going ?

The oxides of nitrogen are not going anywhere, however things such as carbon monoxide and other polluntants get broken down at those high pressures and temperatures. I'm not arguing that the oxides of nitrogen are not created as a byproduct I'm just saying that those are created when burning gasoline also and that if you are going to use an internal combustion engine hydrogen is much cleaner.

-Spy

 

[spyordie007]

Originally posted by: Hayabusarider

Originally posted by: Roger
Another point that needs to be made, Hydrogen powered vehicles emit pollution as well, don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Our atmosphere contains large amounts of nitrogen, when this nitrogen is exposed to high pressures and temperatures it breaks down and combines with other elelments to form nitrogen oxides which is a major pollutant.

I am not sure where this happens in fuel cells.

it doesnt, fuel cells operate by means of proton or electron exchange at low temperatures. The only exaust of a fuel-cell running on hydrogen is water.

-Spy

 

[feralkid]

Originally posted by: Roger

The exaust out of an internal combustion engine running on Hydrogen is CLEANER than the air that enters the engine. Yes you are correct in that some of the Nitrogen in the air can form nitrogen oxides (just like gasoline) but burning hydrgogen in an internal combustion breaks down existing polutants so the exaust you get is technically cleaner than the air that comes into the engine. We have done tests to prove this.

Please explain to me in detail where the oxides of nitrogen are going ?

Fuel cells......

What's this "burning" of hydrogen in internal combustion engines you are on about?

 

[feralkid]

Originally posted by: flavio
What do you suppose the story is with the Bush hydrogen car plan? Hydrogen cars sound like a great idea, but do you suppose this is better technology than electric cars?

Here's an excerpt from a Wired article:

In January, the Bush administration scrapped a $1.5 billion Clinton-era program to develop an 80-mpg car by 2004. Instead, the White House launched FreedomCAR (the "CAR" stands for cooperative automotive research), promising $125 million next year plus more later to help automakers in pre-competitive hydrogen power research. The initiative set no hard goal or deadline for producing an H2-powered car, so environmentalists see it as a Big Oil/Big Three/GOP plot to distract the public from the need to mandate immediate, radical increases in fuel efficiency. The New York Times wrote that the only freedom that FreedomCAR will bestow is on "the manufacturers, now relieved of the obligation (absent strong new fuel economy standards) to produce serious breakthroughs in the next few years."

From here.

A fuel cell car IS an electric car.

 

[spyordie007]

Fuel cells......

What's this "burning" of hydrogen in internal combustion engines you are on about?

You can burn hydrogen in an internal combustion engine (most cars on the road) just like you can with natural gas.

-Spy

 

I am speaking about burning Hydrogen fuel in a internal combustion engine, not in a fuel cell.

The oxides of nitrogen are not going anywhere, however things such as carbon monoxide and other polluntants get broken down at those high pressures and temperatures. I'm not arguing that the oxides of nitrogen are not created as a byproduct I'm just saying that those are created when burning gasoline also and that if you are going to use an internal combustion engine hydrogen is much cleaner.

Nitrogen is in our atmosphere in great quantities, this nitrogen is inducted into the engine where it is exposed to high heat and pressure creating nitrogen oxides, this occurs no matter what kind of fuel is burned in a internal combustion engine.

 

[feralkid]

Originally posted by: spyordie007

Fuel cells......

What's this "burning" of hydrogen in internal combustion engines you are on about?

You can burn hydrogen in an internal combustion engine (most cars on the road) just like you can with natural gas.

-Spy

But that's not what this is about...it's about fuel cells.

 

[spyordie007]

Originally posted by: Roger
I am speaking about burning Hydrogen fuel in a internal combustion engine, not in a fuel cell.

The oxides of nitrogen are not going anywhere, however things such as carbon monoxide and other polluntants get broken down at those high pressures and temperatures. I'm not arguing that the oxides of nitrogen are not created as a byproduct I'm just saying that those are created when burning gasoline also and that if you are going to use an internal combustion engine hydrogen is much cleaner.

Nitrogen is in our atmosphere in great quantities, this nitrogen is inducted into the engine where it is exposed to high heat and pressure creating nitrogen oxides, this occurs no matter what kind of fuel is burned in a internal combustion engine.

Yes you are right, this happens in all internal combustion engines.

Originally posted by: feralkid
But that's not what this is about...it's about fuel cells.

-Spy

 

No offense, but why are you talking about doing exactly that ? .[/quote]

The oxides of nitrogen are not going anywhere, however things such as carbon monoxide and other polluntants get broken down at those high pressures and temperatures. I'm not arguing that the oxides of nitrogen are not created as a byproduct I'm just saying that those are created when burning gasoline also and that if you are going to use an internal combustion engine hydrogen is much cleaner