What's the next fuel-saver vehicle coming down the line?

[StageLeft]

Is any company rolling out a bunch of new hybrids or anything? I see that GM has the volt coming out two years from now, which is nothing more than existing hybrid technology with a larger battery pack and larger motor enough to go completely electric for 40 miles. Its currently-slated cost is too high to make it a pragmatic purchase, though, and given the current gas climate I am shocked they still need another two years (how about advancing that schedule, guys!).

I could see toyota or honda coming out with a successor to what they have. Are they planning on it?

 

[PricklyPete]

The Volt is not "existing hybrid technology"

1) The modular layout is not used in any current production car. The electric motors drive the car ALL the time. An engine of any type can be used recharge the batteries when they are exhausted. This can include a gas engine (Volt show car), a diesel (Opel show car), or even a fuel cell in future applications.

2) No car has successfully used the amount of battery power that GM is trying to fit in the Volt. I believe GM is working with Lithium Polymer batteries (used in iPhones and other new electronics) which have the size and power benefits of Lithium Ion batteries without the heat/explosive behaviors. I may be corrected on this as they may be still attempting it with Lithium Ion...but either way...getting the amount of battery power GM is attempting will be a first in a production car at that price (I believe the Tesla Roadster has actually even more...but lets be honest...that isn't practical for anyone...and isn't a hybrid).

And to say that GM is dragging their feet is a bit harsh. They are working with systems that have never been implemented and the normal gestation of a car is several years at a minimum and GM has only been working on the Volt for a couple years now. Slow to react...maybe...but not slow to develop.

All that being said...I'm positive that Honda and Toyota will have competitive products to the Volt when it finally does come out. Honda has already said they will be placing hybrid's across their line and Toyota has also stated that they have been working on the successor of the current gen Prius for a while.

Just give the industry a couple more years and I think we'll all be impressed with what comes out.

 

[PricklyPete]

Also...with regard to the Volt. I'd much rather them set realistic deadlines for the car and actually come out with something decent instead of rushing and coming out with a mess. GM has a pretty good track record with new cars lately (Malibu, CTS, G8, etc) ... so I actually have hope for this thing.

GM has also annouced a new higher MPG gas engine...although it will not be in cars till just before the Volt in 2010...but will likely be much easier to obtain:

http://www.edmunds.com/insidel.../News/articleId=126613

This may not seem like much of an accomplishment based on old cars like the Geo Metro that was able to get crazy gas mileage...but with modern safety and convenience features plus our general liking for more powerful engines...a car that gets 40+ MPG on the new EPA standards is pretty impressive (as you are likely to be able to get well over that 40mpg mark if you drive carefully).

I'm positive that Honda and Toyota will come out with some equally impressive motors/solutions. And don't count out BMW/Audi/Merc...I think they have finally gotten over their horsepower wars and are on the wagon...

 

[StageLeft]

Thanks for the posts. The volt will indeed use some lithium chemistry. I just find it strange that hobbyists in their garage have already done great things with a prius and at not a massive cost. Safety may be different and they may not be reliable, but still, a giant like GM it seems should be able to move things along.

In any case i was shocked on that article about the fact that a Cobalt gets 22 mpg in the city for the "fast" version. I confirmed it at autobytel. It has 50 less horsepower and is lighter than my 2000 maxima and yet gets the exact same city mileage. That is disgustingly bad!

 

[iamwiz82]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Thanks for the posts. The volt will indeed use some lithium chemistry. I just find it strange that hobbyists in their garage have already done great things with a prius and at not a massive cost. Safety may be different and they may not be reliable, but still, a giant like GM it seems should be able to move things along.

In any case i was shocked on that article about the fact that a Cobalt gets 22 mpg in the city for the "fast" version. I confirmed it at autobytel. It has 50 less horsepower and is lighter than my 2000 maxima and yet gets the exact same city mileage. That is disgustingly bad!

The cost of making something with 99.9% reliability over an 8 year lifespan (or whatever quality target they shoot for) is many factors higher than getting something to 80% reliability over a 4 year lifespan.

EDIT: I forgot to mention safety too. cannot have the Volt blow up when it gets rearended by a Hummer, you know.

 

[PricklyPete]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

In any case i was shocked on that article about the fact that a Cobalt gets 22 mpg in the city for the "fast" version. I confirmed it at autobytel. It has 50 less horsepower and is lighter than my 2000 maxima and yet gets the exact same city mileage. That is disgustingly bad!

Actually your car is rated at 18 or 19 city depending on transmission according to fueleconomy.gov.

And for a reference point..the Chevy cobalt gets 22 or 24 city depending on transmission. So in reality there is a 4-5 MPG difference depending on what combination you select.

 

[PricklyPete]

Originally posted by: PricklyPete

Originally posted by: Skoorb

In any case i was shocked on that article about the fact that a Cobalt gets 22 mpg in the city for the "fast" version. I confirmed it at autobytel. It has 50 less horsepower and is lighter than my 2000 maxima and yet gets the exact same city mileage. That is disgustingly bad!

Actually your car is rated at 18 or 19 city depending on transmission according to fueleconomy.gov.

And for a reference point..the Chevy cobalt gets 22 or 24 city depending on transmission. So in reality there is a 4-5 MPG difference depending on what combination you select.

Oh yeah...and for highway driving...your car is rated 25-26MPG based on transmission...while the Cobalt has 32-34MPG based on transmission...so that is a 7-8 MPG difference on the highway. I'd say that's fairly reasonable considering the cobalt is reasonably engaging to drive and is a reasonably safe car.

 

[LTC8K6]

Well, the Cobalt XFE would be Chevy's leader, wouldn't it? That's rated 36mpg highway, so nine more than that would be 45mpg.

 

[PricklyPete]

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
Well, the Cobalt XFE would be Chevy's leader, wouldn't it? That's rated 36mpg highway, so nine more than that would be 45mpg.

Yes...you are correct...the XFE is rated at 25-36...so it would be the leader...but I am not as familiar with this car and what engine it contains. I test drove the cobalt a couple of years ago with my little sister when she was looking for a new car and while it pailed in comparison to the Civic, Mazda3, and Scion Tc in quality of car...it was not a slouch either.

 

[CptCrunch]

Finally GM is looking at putting a small engine with a turbo for achieving good fuel economy. I have been wondering when they were going to bring this technology to the states. I keep thinking of the Jetta TDI with the 1.9L turbo that gets 40-50mpg (yes, it's a diesel but not the point). The turbo is a good way to add some umph when needed, but still achieve good gas mileage with the 1.4L gas engine.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: PricklyPete

Originally posted by: Skoorb

In any case i was shocked on that article about the fact that a Cobalt gets 22 mpg in the city for the "fast" version. I confirmed it at autobytel. It has 50 less horsepower and is lighter than my 2000 maxima and yet gets the exact same city mileage. That is disgustingly bad!

Actually your car is rated at 18 or 19 city depending on transmission according to fueleconomy.gov.

And for a reference point..the Chevy cobalt gets 22 or 24 city depending on transmission. So in reality there is a 4-5 MPG difference depending on what combination you select.

I just know that EPA rates the cobalt at 22 and when I bought mine, EPA rated it at 22, too, which is what I've found it gets in my actual use. Cobalt is better on the highway. I've gotten 27-28, though, at above-speed limit speeds with AC on.

 

[PricklyPete]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: PricklyPete

Originally posted by: Skoorb

In any case i was shocked on that article about the fact that a Cobalt gets 22 mpg in the city for the "fast" version. I confirmed it at autobytel. It has 50 less horsepower and is lighter than my 2000 maxima and yet gets the exact same city mileage. That is disgustingly bad!

Actually your car is rated at 18 or 19 city depending on transmission according to fueleconomy.gov.

And for a reference point..the Chevy cobalt gets 22 or 24 city depending on transmission. So in reality there is a 4-5 MPG difference depending on what combination you select.

I just know that EPA rates the cobalt at 22 and when I bought mine, EPA rated it at 22, too, which is what I've found it gets in my actual use. Cobalt is better on the highway. I've gotten 27-28, though, at above-speed limit speeds with AC on.

The EPA has changed it's methods for rating cars. Fueleconomy.gov is the EPA and they have adjusted your car to how they rate the cars now. So just like you see better numbers than the EPA does (22 vs. 18)...the Cobalt is likely to see better numbers for its 22 MPG.

And as I said..if you are comparing a manual Maxima to a Manual Cobalt on todays EPA ratings...then the difference is 18 to 24...so that is substantial.

I.E. I'm attempting to discredit your attempt at making it look like no progress has been made whatsoever

 

[PricklyPete]

Originally posted by: CptCrunch
Finally GM is looking at putting a small engine with a turbo for achieving good fuel economy. I have been wondering when they were going to bring this technology to the states. I keep thinking of the Jetta TDI with the 1.9L turbo that gets 40-50mpg (yes, it's a diesel but not the point). The turbo is a good way to add some umph when needed, but still achieve good gas mileage with the 1.4L gas engine.

I'm looking forward to see how this engine pans out as well. GM has actually shown a decent amount of competence with turbos as the engine in the Sky Redline and the Solstice GXP is quite a peach. I have hopes for this engine...but I expect a lot of similarly capable engines coming from companies like Honda (now that they've jumped on the turbo wagon) and VW (who has always had a talent with this sort of engine).

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: CptCrunch
Finally GM is looking at putting a small engine with a turbo for achieving good fuel economy. I have been wondering when they were going to bring this technology to the states. I keep thinking of the Jetta TDI with the 1.9L turbo that gets 40-50mpg (yes, it's a diesel but not the point). The turbo is a good way to add some umph when needed, but still achieve good gas mileage with the 1.4L gas engine.

ex's turbo jetta got cruddy mileage

 

[iamwiz82]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: CptCrunch
Finally GM is looking at putting a small engine with a turbo for achieving good fuel economy. I have been wondering when they were going to bring this technology to the states. I keep thinking of the Jetta TDI with the 1.9L turbo that gets 40-50mpg (yes, it's a diesel but not the point). The turbo is a good way to add some umph when needed, but still achieve good gas mileage with the 1.4L gas engine.

ex's turbo jetta got cruddy mileage

Turbo diesel or turbo gasoline?

 

[Demon-Xanth]

If GM were to make a new car, using existing drivetrains and just a different body, it would take a few years. Hell, it took a couple years to bring the GTO to the US, and it was already a Monaro. The Volt is an all new car. And as far as the crazy things people have been doing with Prius's, many of the things they do wouldn't work well in a mass market or on a mass production type of environment. But for the individuals, there's no issue there.

 

[radioouman]

Honda FCX

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: radioouman
Honda FCX

fuel cells are nothing more than a pipe dream for the forseeable future, thogh.

 

[radioouman]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: radioouman
Honda FCX

fuel cells are nothing more than a pipe dream for the forseeable future, thogh.

Reality in southern California, if you can afford $600 per month.
http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/

 

[PingSpike]

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
If GM were to make a new car, using existing drivetrains and just a different body, it would take a few years. Hell, it took a couple years to bring the GTO to the US, and it was already a Monaro. The Volt is an all new car. And as far as the crazy things people have been doing with Prius's, many of the things they do wouldn't work well in a mass market or on a mass production type of environment. But for the individuals, there's no issue there.

I'm not familiar with the modifications people made to their priuses...but I fail to see why economies of scale wouldn't apply here. Anything a hobbyist can do to their car, the automaker should be able to do themselves, cheaper, faster and better. A hobbyist can't buy in bulk, use machines for manufactoring or make use of large amounts of statistical data that only come from making large numbers of something.

It is true that they can circumvent safety standards and don't have regulatory hurdles I suppose.

Anyway...according to the wikipedia entry...for whatever its worth...the GM EV-1 had an electric range of 160 miles. If that is correct, why, 10 years later, with new battery technology, is GM only advertising their as of yet not even being produced car as having an electric range of only 40 miles? I acknowledge I know nothing much about the process...but that seems lame to me.

 

[Ktulu]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
In any case i was shocked on that article about the fact that a Cobalt gets 22 mpg in the city for the "fast" version. I confirmed it at autobytel. It has 50 less horsepower and is lighter than my 2000 maxima and yet gets the exact same city mileage. That is disgustingly bad!

What do you mean the "fast" version? I you referring to the SS? If so why is that surprising? the Civic SI's w/ 2.0L rating is 21/29 and the S2000's w/2.0L are 18/25. If you think about it Cobalt is actually extremely competitive in regards to mileage.

 

[Demon-Xanth]

Originally posted by: PingSpike

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
If GM were to make a new car, using existing drivetrains and just a different body, it would take a few years. Hell, it took a couple years to bring the GTO to the US, and it was already a Monaro. The Volt is an all new car. And as far as the crazy things people have been doing with Prius's, many of the things they do wouldn't work well in a mass market or on a mass production type of environment. But for the individuals, there's no issue there.

I'm not familiar with the modifications people made to their priuses...but I fail to see why economies of scale wouldn't apply here. Anything a hobbyist can do to their car, the automaker should be able to do themselves, cheaper, faster and better. A hobbyist can't buy in bulk, use machines for manufactoring or make use of large amounts of statistical data that only come from making large numbers of something.

It is true that they can circumvent safety standards and don't have regulatory hurdles I suppose.

Anyway...according to the wikipedia entry...for whatever its worth...the GM EV-1 had an electric range of 160 miles. If that is correct, why, 10 years later, with new battery technology, is GM only advertising their as of yet not even being produced car as having an electric range of only 40 miles? I acknowledge I know nothing much about the process...but that seems lame to me.

The GM's EV1 160 mile range was VERY generous. As far as what they can do in their garage vs. what Toyota could do it's like saying that someone overclocked their CPU to 4GHz using dry ice so why can't Dell sell a system like that?

 

[Thump553]

The next model Prius is supposed to be a plug in hybrid, and supposed to be out in April, 2009 from what I've read.

 

[AdamK47]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: PricklyPete

Originally posted by: Skoorb

In any case i was shocked on that article about the fact that a Cobalt gets 22 mpg in the city for the "fast" version. I confirmed it at autobytel. It has 50 less horsepower and is lighter than my 2000 maxima and yet gets the exact same city mileage. That is disgustingly bad!

Actually your car is rated at 18 or 19 city depending on transmission according to fueleconomy.gov.

And for a reference point..the Chevy cobalt gets 22 or 24 city depending on transmission. So in reality there is a 4-5 MPG difference depending on what combination you select.

I just know that EPA rates the cobalt at 22 and when I bought mine, EPA rated it at 22, too, which is what I've found it gets in my actual use. Cobalt is better on the highway. I've gotten 27-28, though, at above-speed limit speeds with AC on.

That logic can work in reverse too. Someone with a Cobalt can compare what they get to what they see on paper for your car. It's really pointless.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Originally posted by: iamwiz82

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Thanks for the posts. The volt will indeed use some lithium chemistry. I just find it strange that hobbyists in their garage have already done great things with a prius and at not a massive cost. Safety may be different and they may not be reliable, but still, a giant like GM it seems should be able to move things along.

In any case i was shocked on that article about the fact that a Cobalt gets 22 mpg in the city for the "fast" version. I confirmed it at autobytel. It has 50 less horsepower and is lighter than my 2000 maxima and yet gets the exact same city mileage. That is disgustingly bad!

The cost of making something with 99.9% reliability over an 8 year lifespan (or whatever quality target they shoot for) is many factors higher than getting something to 80% reliability over a 4 year lifespan.

EDIT: I forgot to mention safety too. cannot have the Volt blow up when it gets rearended by a Hummer, you know.

That would be a first for GM with any vehicle.