What's the next fuel-saver vehicle coming down the line?

[Ktulu]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: iamwiz82

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Thanks for the posts. The volt will indeed use some lithium chemistry. I just find it strange that hobbyists in their garage have already done great things with a prius and at not a massive cost. Safety may be different and they may not be reliable, but still, a giant like GM it seems should be able to move things along.

In any case i was shocked on that article about the fact that a Cobalt gets 22 mpg in the city for the "fast" version. I confirmed it at autobytel. It has 50 less horsepower and is lighter than my 2000 maxima and yet gets the exact same city mileage. That is disgustingly bad!

The cost of making something with 99.9% reliability over an 8 year lifespan (or whatever quality target they shoot for) is many factors higher than getting something to 80% reliability over a 4 year lifespan.

EDIT: I forgot to mention safety too. cannot have the Volt blow up when it gets rearended by a Hummer, you know.

That would be a first for GM with any vehicle.

As much as I hate to admit it this is true. They can never get the complete package going. It's either a reliable drivetrain but shitty interior or solid interior and so so drivetrain. I want to say the new batch of vehicles that have been coming out are any different but it's really too early to tell if they'll hold up for a good 8+ years.

 

[AdamK47]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

Originally posted by: iamwiz82

Originally posted by: Skoorb
Thanks for the posts. The volt will indeed use some lithium chemistry. I just find it strange that hobbyists in their garage have already done great things with a prius and at not a massive cost. Safety may be different and they may not be reliable, but still, a giant like GM it seems should be able to move things along.

In any case i was shocked on that article about the fact that a Cobalt gets 22 mpg in the city for the "fast" version. I confirmed it at autobytel. It has 50 less horsepower and is lighter than my 2000 maxima and yet gets the exact same city mileage. That is disgustingly bad!

The cost of making something with 99.9% reliability over an 8 year lifespan (or whatever quality target they shoot for) is many factors higher than getting something to 80% reliability over a 4 year lifespan.

EDIT: I forgot to mention safety too. cannot have the Volt blow up when it gets rearended by a Hummer, you know.

That would be a first for GM with any vehicle.

I've been successfull in more than 999 trips out of 1000 from point A to point B in a single GM vehicle in a reliable manner. That should fit the detailed requirement outlined above.

 

[LTC8K6]

Prickly Pete, according to wiki, the XFE has the same 2.2L Ecotec engine. They just managed to get better FE out of the manual tranny version and badged them XFE. So the XFE has 148 hp and 152lbft of torque and is still rated at 25/36mpg.

"2008: The 2.4L naturally aspirated, high-output SS coupe and SS sedan were renamed to "Sport Coupe" and "Sport Sedan" respectively. The new Cobalt SS features a 260 hp (194 kW) turbocharged engine, replacing the Supercharged engine which was offered from 2005-2007. At mid-year, the fuel economy was increased to 25 city, 36 highway MPG on the LS and 1LT, coupe and sedan models with manual transmission; now labeled with XFE badging (X-tra Fuel Economy). Regular Cobalts also get a facelift, with a new grille from the former Cobalt SS. XM Radio, side-impact air bags for improved safety, and MP3 player are now standard instead of optional. StabiliTrak stability control system is introduced. Other changes include the adding and removal of several exterior and interior colors. The new SS (turbocharged) coupe launched near the end of May 2008. A sedan version is expected for the 2009 model year."

2.2L Ecotec:

http://www.chevrolet.com/pop/c...008/2_2L_engine_en.jsp

 

[potato28]

Originally posted by: radioouman

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: radioouman
Honda FCX

fuel cells are nothing more than a pipe dream for the forseeable future, thogh.

Reality in southern California, if you can afford $600 per month.
http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/

Looks good, but there's also some infrastructure for sustaining a fuel cell powered car in So-cal because they're on the green edge. Really looks promising though, I'd try one if they had similar fueling stations and such in my area.

 

[PingSpike]

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
The GM's EV1 160 mile range was VERY generous.

I don't doubt that...but what does VERY generous mean? That is four times the potentially pie in the sky distance GM is currently saying the volt will get. And it was using older types of batteries?

I'm not saying there aren't perfectly good reasons, I can think of some. More accurate measurement of distance, not relying on special tires, realistic estimates for colder climates...but it sure seems like they could do something more impressive after all this time.

 

[thomsbrain]

Honda has confirmed two new hybrids for 2009, both priced below $20,000:

-- The amazing-looking CR-Z sports-oriented hatchback. This is billed as the spiritual successor to the CRX, with super-high economy paired with engaging sports handling. The concept is the best-looking small car I have ever seen, period. I'll have a deposit down on it as soon as dealers are taking them.

-- An as-yet unnamed 4-door hatch dedicated hybrid compact, similar in size to the Fit, Civic, or FCX fuel-cell car. This should give them their Prius-fighter for the fashion-crowd.

For 2010 or 2011, they have confirmed a hybrid version of the Fit will join the ranks of the Civic and the two models mentioned above. Honda is touting their plan to get the IMA system below $2000 per car, significantly reducing the price premium we currently pay for hybrid models.

Don't forget about the Civic GX natural-gas model, currently on sale. It comes with a home filling station.

I'm also very excited about the Chevy Volt, but rumors are that it will cost more than $30,000, and that makes it a lot less attractive.

 

[desy]

They may have got the mileage out of the ole EV! but the batteries wouldn't hold up in the cold, discharge recharge cycles, and slow recharge times, I'd also question safety and what did it actually cost to build even if they did mass produce them.
Any auto manufacturer wants to do better

 

[mcturkey]

The Volt is so far removed from current hybrid technology it shouldn't even be called one. At no time does it operate off the gasoline engine. It is driven purely by the electric motor, which draws from the batteries. Only when those batteries are low does the gasoline (or diesel) engine kick in, and only to recharge those batteries. An internal combustion engine operating at a constant RPM can be extremely efficient in generating electricity, and will thus provide plenty of recharging power with very little gasoline usage.

I'll be looking to buy a new car in the next couple of years, and fuel economy is certainly a huge issue with gas at $4/gal. But by 2010 when I'm ready to purchase, gas might well be $6/gal. And by the time I'd be ready to buy a car to replace that one, gas could easily be $10/gal or more. While 25-30mpg might be acceptable at current prices (even then, it hurts), it's not ok at $10/gal. While I certainly hope that it won't be this expensive, I'm not willing to bank on gas staying at current levels for the next ten years. And since the Volt will support AC recharging as well, it could easily be that the gasoline engine would only ever have to be fired up for those times when you have to take a longer trip. Heck, you'd have to worry about the gas going stale in the tank at that point.

 

[Xyclone]

Originally posted by: PingSpike

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth
Anyway...according to the wikipedia entry...for whatever its worth...the GM EV-1 had an electric range of 160 miles. If that is correct, why, 10 years later, with new battery technology, is GM only advertising their as of yet not even being produced car as having an electric range of only 40 miles? I acknowledge I know nothing much about the process...but that seems lame to me.

Who Killed the Electric Car?! Conspiracy!!1one

 

[PricklyPete]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

That would be a first for GM with any vehicle.

Oh please Jules...don't show your blatant bias or anything. I'm no blanket fan of GM...I do like a few of their new cars...but they have had several very reliable cars over the years...and they've gotten a lot better in the last decade.

 

[PricklyPete]

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
Prickly Pete, according to wiki, the XFE has the same 2.2L Ecotec engine. They just managed to get better FE out of the manual tranny version and badged them XFE. So the XFE has 148 hp and 152lbft of torque and is still rated at 25/36mpg.

"2008: The 2.4L naturally aspirated, high-output SS coupe and SS sedan were renamed to "Sport Coupe" and "Sport Sedan" respectively. The new Cobalt SS features a 260 hp (194 kW) turbocharged engine, replacing the Supercharged engine which was offered from 2005-2007. At mid-year, the fuel economy was increased to 25 city, 36 highway MPG on the LS and 1LT, coupe and sedan models with manual transmission; now labeled with XFE badging (X-tra Fuel Economy). Regular Cobalts also get a facelift, with a new grille from the former Cobalt SS. XM Radio, side-impact air bags for improved safety, and MP3 player are now standard instead of optional. StabiliTrak stability control system is introduced. Other changes include the adding and removal of several exterior and interior colors. The new SS (turbocharged) coupe launched near the end of May 2008. A sedan version is expected for the 2009 model year."

2.2L Ecotec:

http://www.chevrolet.com/pop/c...008/2_2L_engine_en.jsp

Thanks for the info...very interesting. So the gearing has likely been spaced to give a little less peppy ride...but good gas mileage. Not to my tastes...but should satisfy a lot of current requirements of people buying such vehicles with the price of gas where it is. 36 MPG using current EPA standards for that car is actually pretty impressive in my opinion.

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: radioouman

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: radioouman
Honda FCX

fuel cells are nothing more than a pipe dream for the forseeable future, thogh.

Reality in southern California, if you can afford $600 per month.
http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/

Honda, I am sure, is taking a huge loss on those. The infrastructure and cost reality of fuel cells is a fantasy for years to come. Only those in small pilot programs will be able to use these!

I didn't realize the volt is, at all times, powered 100% by electric motors, like a locomotive using the gasoline only to charge batteries, so it is as prickly said a pretty big overhaul over hybrid. Pretty damn cool, actually! I hope it works out for them.

Honda has confirmed two new hybrids for 2009, both priced below $20,000:

I hope they're right, but sub 20k hybrid in this climate, I'll believe it when I see it.

The CR-Z appears to be a prototype/concept, which in the real world means a minimum of several years before production.

Chevy Volt, but rumors are that it will cost more than $30,000

Yes, it will be above $40k, honestly it's likely to be as close to 50k as 40k once it's actually out the door. Apparently it's costing them $48k to make with current tech, IIRC.

And by the time I'd be ready to buy a car to replace that one, gas could easily be $10/gal or more.

Possible but unlikely. I bet that in two years gas is actually less than it is now.

 

[SearchMaster]

Originally posted by: thomsbrain
Honda has confirmed two new hybrids for 2009, both priced below $20,000:

-- The amazing-looking CR-Z sports-oriented hatchback. This is billed as the spiritual successor to the CRX, with super-high economy paired with engaging sports handling. The concept is the best-looking small car I have ever seen, period. I'll have a deposit down on it as soon as dealers are taking them.

-- An as-yet unnamed 4-door hatch dedicated hybrid compact, similar in size to the Fit, Civic, or FCX fuel-cell car. This should give them their Prius-fighter for the fashion-crowd.

For 2010 or 2011, they have confirmed a hybrid version of the Fit will join the ranks of the Civic and the two models mentioned above. Honda is touting their plan to get the IMA system below $2000 per car, significantly reducing the price premium we currently pay for hybrid models.

Don't forget about the Civic GX natural-gas model, currently on sale. It comes with a home filling station.

I'm also very excited about the Chevy Volt, but rumors are that it will cost more than $30,000, and that makes it a lot less attractive.

I very well might buy a CR-Z as well, but last I saw it has not been verified for the US market yet .

 

[kalrith]

Originally posted by: SearchMaster

Originally posted by: thomsbrain
Honda has confirmed two new hybrids for 2009, both priced below $20,000:

-- The amazing-looking CR-Z sports-oriented hatchback. This is billed as the spiritual successor to the CRX, with super-high economy paired with engaging sports handling. The concept is the best-looking small car I have ever seen, period. I'll have a deposit down on it as soon as dealers are taking them.

-- An as-yet unnamed 4-door hatch dedicated hybrid compact, similar in size to the Fit, Civic, or FCX fuel-cell car. This should give them their Prius-fighter for the fashion-crowd.

For 2010 or 2011, they have confirmed a hybrid version of the Fit will join the ranks of the Civic and the two models mentioned above. Honda is touting their plan to get the IMA system below $2000 per car, significantly reducing the price premium we currently pay for hybrid models.

Don't forget about the Civic GX natural-gas model, currently on sale. It comes with a home filling station.

I'm also very excited about the Chevy Volt, but rumors are that it will cost more than $30,000, and that makes it a lot less attractive.

I very well might buy a CR-Z as well, but last I saw it has not been verified for the US market yet .

This article starts off with the following line: "Making its North American debut, the CR-Z..."

 

[kalrith]

Originally posted by: PricklyPete

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus

That would be a first for GM with any vehicle.

Oh please Jules...don't show your blatant bias or anything. I'm no blanket fan of GM...I do like a few of their new cars...but they have had several very reliable cars over the years...and they've gotten a lot better in the last decade.

My '79 Monte Carlo is still running strong.

 

[Demon-Xanth]

Originally posted by: kalrith

Originally posted by: SearchMaster

Originally posted by: thomsbrain
Honda has confirmed two new hybrids for 2009, both priced below $20,000:

-- The amazing-looking CR-Z sports-oriented hatchback. This is billed as the spiritual successor to the CRX, with super-high economy paired with engaging sports handling. The concept is the best-looking small car I have ever seen, period. I'll have a deposit down on it as soon as dealers are taking them.

-- An as-yet unnamed 4-door hatch dedicated hybrid compact, similar in size to the Fit, Civic, or FCX fuel-cell car. This should give them their Prius-fighter for the fashion-crowd.

For 2010 or 2011, they have confirmed a hybrid version of the Fit will join the ranks of the Civic and the two models mentioned above. Honda is touting their plan to get the IMA system below $2000 per car, significantly reducing the price premium we currently pay for hybrid models.

Don't forget about the Civic GX natural-gas model, currently on sale. It comes with a home filling station.

I'm also very excited about the Chevy Volt, but rumors are that it will cost more than $30,000, and that makes it a lot less attractive.

I very well might buy a CR-Z as well, but last I saw it has not been verified for the US market yet .

This article starts off with the following line: "Making its North American debut, the CR-Z is a next-generation lightweight sports car concept"

FIXED FOR CRITICALLY MISSING INFORMATION

 

[thomsbrain]

Skoorb, after checking the news about the CR-Z, I have to admit I can't find anything more specific than that it will "make production," with some sources saying 2009, some saying 2010. But just keep in mind that Honda doesn't generally show concept cars that are intended for production unless they will be releasing those cars fairly soon. They play their cards very close to their hands when it comes to protecting sales off their current line-up.

Anyway, we'll just have to wait and see what the industry manages to deliver, and when. It will be an interesting time, especially since we've been in such a horsepower war for so long. I'm willing to be it will be better than the CAFE 70's and 80's, though.