Whats the curve in your class?

[gopunk]

Originally posted by: TallBill

Originally posted by: gopunk

In the real world their are no curves, you get paid to do a job at your best ability, not riding along(some do this and can last awhile, but eventually it will catch up to you).

no... the whole f*cking world is one big giant curve.

No, the whole learning process is just a sham. Unfortunatly there is no way to accuratly read someones competence, knowledge, and ability. Hence, test scores.

this has nothing to do with the learning process. everything is curved in the real world, even more so than in school. even more insiduously, since they don't tell you the mean or anything, you have to judge everything yourself.

 

[TallBill]

I'd call it a series of plateaus. Who cares though, the real world is silly.

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: TallBill

rereading..wth kind of school and major do you have if you've never had a curve? Are you studying Philosophy of Religion or Elementary Education or something?

Why knock other majors? Are they not as demanding? Thats opposite logic. A less demanding major would have a curve. Your "tough" physics class shouldn't have one. Hey, 20% would have passed. They must have been doing something right. Sucks for the rest.

You're kidding, right? I majored in math, but had a minor in education. It took effort NOT to get an A in some of the education classes. One prof believed (and to a degree, he may be right), that the best way to do it was have students sign a contract: "I will do this and this and this..." If work wasn't A caliber on the first try, students were allowed to try again and again until they could meet the expectations for an A. Thus, if you did everything you were supposed to, and fixed your errors and resubmitted stuff, you got an A.

However, I still think there's something wrong when you're making insanely difficult tests and having to curve the grades. In the physics example above, you can't just cover the basic principles and then expect students to figure out how to apply them to much more complicated problems... and, you don't have enough time in class to cover those complicated problems. There should, however, be the expectation that the student do at least 2 hours of work outside of class for each hour in class. The professor should be responsible for providing materials that will help the students learn the insight necessary to solve those more complicated problems.

 

[gopunk]

However, I still think there's something wrong when you're making insanely difficult tests and having to curve the grades. In the physics example above, you can't just cover the basic principles and then expect students to figure out how to apply them to much more complicated problems... and, you don't have enough time in class to cover those complicated problems. There should, however, be the expectation that the student do at least 2 hours of work outside of class for each hour in class. The professor should be responsible for providing materials that will help the students learn the insight necessary to solve those more complicated problems.

i dunno, i don't think there is any easy solutions to a problem like this. you can make the tests easier, but then you have really really bright and innovative people getting the same grades as people that just memorize the material or something. personally, i think that when profs make tests abnormally hard, it is because they want to distinguish between these two types of people.

no matter how you do it, there will be some degree of injustice, unfortunately

 

[TallBill]

Like i said before

Hehe, i guess i've had the opposite experience then.

But, retaking assignments is on the easy path, which i personally associate curves with. I understand that its not the same with insanely hard tests, but i agree that those are kinda silly.

 

[gopunk]

Originally posted by: TallBill
I'd call it a series of plateaus.

hahaha lame

 

[TallBill]

Gopunk, thats why i've seen some professors toss in 3 or 4 bonus or "extra credit" problems that are just insane.. They really are not there for the extra points. Its just a test to see who the REALLY knows there stuff.

 

[beer]

Originally posted by: TallBill
Gopunk, thats why i've seen some professors toss in 3 or 4 bonus or "extra credit" problems that are just insane.. They really are not there for the extra points. Its just a test to see who the REALLY knows there stuff.

But most professors don't do that. Most professors curve. What is the difference between your example and my physics example?

 

[TallBill]

The difference is that if you really know yer crap, you get a 110%, which by logic is a super grade. If you know it damn well and get a 95%, thats still an A.

With the curves, if you really know yer crap, you get a 90% which is an A. If you just know it damn well you get an 80%, which is curved to an A.

In both cases, both people deserve an A, but with the extra credit or whatever, they both actually got above 90%. It just makes more sense. (to me)

edit - Im not saying any way is wrong or better, any major is better or worse, or any school is great/bad. I dont give a crap about any of that. Im just giving my opinions, which is all we can really do here anyways right?

 

[beer]

Originally posted by: TallBill
The difference is that if you really know yer crap, you get a 110%, which by logic is a super grade. If you know it damn well and get a 95%, thats still an A.

With the curves, if you really know yer crap, you get a 90% which is an A. If you just know it damn well you get an 80%, which is curved to an A.

In both cases, both people deserve an A, but with the extra credit or whatever, they both actually got above 90%. It just makes more sense. (to me)

It's the same end result. it doesn't matter the means to achieve the ends.

An A is an A is an A...whether it is curved up from a 70% or not.

My theory is that 15-20% of a class should get As, 30% should get Bs, 35% make Cs, and 15% either drop or fail. if you eliminate about 15% each year...by the time of graduation, less than half of those that started actually finish that major. Of course, this is engineering.....I'm assuming most other majors don't strive to eliminate half their freshman class.

 

[brunswickite]

alot of you guys fail to realize that the curve is more of a way to differntiate students
alot of you argue "Curves are stupid, 90-100 percent should be A, 80-89 B,...." Basically, difficulty is the key word here, most of my profs will give VERY hard exams where the highest grade would be ~95 percent out of 100 in a class of 140 people, but the avg will be ~60 which will be a C+.
If no curve was used the exams would be easier and the avg will be higher, and the highest grade will be close to 100 percent and class avg will be ~75 percent. but it will do little to differentiate the best students and the mediocre students.

one more time
If exam is easy, highest student will get ~100 percent, class avg will be 75 percent

If exam is HARD, highset student will get ~95 percent, class avg will be 55 percent

this will differentiate the classes students

 

[TallBill]

so doing 25 points better then the average is not good enough? maxing out and getting 100% isnt good enough? well i feel jaded then about all the standardized tests i've ever done. 99th percentile is NOT high enough. I demand en exact placement.

 

[yoda291]

the TA was this cute brunette with curly hair and a voice that drove shivers up my spine...she had some nice curves.

 

[beer]

I love having a class with a hot TA. Too bad it's only happened once. but damn, its motivation to go to class

 

It's about 34-24-36

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: Elemental007
My theory is that 15-20% of a class should get As, 30% should get Bs, 35% make Cs, and 15% either drop or fail. if you eliminate about 15% each year...by the time of graduation, less than half of those that started actually finish that major. Of course, this is engineering.....I'm assuming most other majors don't strive to eliminate half their freshman class.

Actually, if you eliminate 15% each year, you'll be left with 52.2% (if you include eliminating 15% at the end of the 4th year). (similar problem... 20% off a shirt that's already marked off 25% doesn't equal 45% off)
In case anyone misses the math, start with 400 freshman... that results in 360 sophomores, a drop of 15% or 60 students. Losing 15% of the sophomores only decreases the number by 51 students, not 60....
Quickly, 400*.85^4=209 students graduate out of 400. More than 50%

I like TallBill's suggestion: Extra credit problems. But it doesn't have to be solely extra credit. Make the test challenging, but a good student should be able to get a B. Toss on just 1 or 2 really hard questions to make the difference between an A and a B. (And, a couple of more difficult questions to distinguish between a B and a C) An entire test doesn't have to be hard to separate the students. Students should know what the teacher's expectations are and what they are expected to know. Also, I'd like to question, who assumes the students in classes follow a normal distribution as far as ability, effort, and intelligence are concerned? And, who assumes that every class has the same range of abilities? I teach, and let me tell you, I've had classes where only 5% deserved A's, and with the exact same materials, curriculum, etc., I've had classes where 40% deserved A's. Give 'em what they deserve and quit curving because you can't make a fair test that accurately tests the objectives you expect the students to learn.

 

[Electric Amish]

Originally posted by: bolinger
You guys are just going to have to face the reality that Weber State is the best school in the country and that all those Top 50 schools that have curved courses are doing things all wrong.

Yes, that was exactly my point. I'm glad some deviant asshat like you could phrase it in a much more succint manner than I.


Dumbass!

amish

 

[Electric Amish]

Originally posted by: brunswickite
alot of you guys fail to realize that the curve is more of a way to differntiate students
alot of you argue "Curves are stupid, 90-100 percent should be A, 80-89 B,...." Basically, difficulty is the key word here, most of my profs will give VERY hard exams where the highest grade would be ~95 percent out of 100 in a class of 140 people, but the avg will be ~60 which will be a C+.
If no curve was used the exams would be easier and the avg will be higher, and the highest grade will be close to 100 percent and class avg will be ~75 percent. but it will do little to differentiate the best students and the mediocre students.

one more time
If exam is easy, highest student will get ~100 percent, class avg will be 75 percent

If exam is HARD, highset student will get ~95 percent, class avg will be 55 percent

this will differentiate the classes students

I don't see why an exam would be any different whether or not a curve is being used.

My theory is that 15-20% of a class should get As, 30% should get Bs, 35% make Cs, and 15% either drop or fail. if you eliminate about 15% each year...by the time of graduation, less than half of those that started actually finish that major. Of course, this is engineering.....I'm assuming most other majors don't strive to eliminate half their freshman class.

Why does it have to be certain percentages at any given section?

amish

 

[Mears]

Me

 

[Spac3d]

Originally posted by: Mears
Me

OMG YOU HAVE A DD 9515!&@!#&!&@%&!%!@^@!^%!@

You sir, are my hero

 

[beer]

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Originally posted by: Elemental007
My theory is that 15-20% of a class should get As, 30% should get Bs, 35% make Cs, and 15% either drop or fail. if you eliminate about 15% each year...by the time of graduation, less than half of those that started actually finish that major. Of course, this is engineering.....I'm assuming most other majors don't strive to eliminate half their freshman class.

Actually, if you eliminate 15% each year, you'll be left with 52.2% (if you include eliminating 15% at the end of the 4th year). (similar problem... 20% off a shirt that's already marked off 25% doesn't equal 45% off)
In case anyone misses the math, start with 400 freshman... that results in 360 sophomores, a drop of 15% or 60 students. Losing 15% of the sophomores only decreases the number by 51 students, not 60....
Quickly, 400*.85^4=209 students graduate out of 400. More than 50%

I like TallBill's suggestion: Extra credit problems. But it doesn't have to be solely extra credit. Make the test challenging, but a good student should be able to get a B. Toss on just 1 or 2 really hard questions to make the difference between an A and a B. (And, a couple of more difficult questions to distinguish between a B and a C) An entire test doesn't have to be hard to separate the students. Students should know what the teacher's expectations are and what they are expected to know. Also, I'd like to question, who assumes the students in classes follow a normal distribution as far as ability, effort, and intelligence are concerned? And, who assumes that every class has the same range of abilities? I teach, and let me tell you, I've had classes where only 5% deserved A's, and with the exact same materials, curriculum, etc., I've had classes where 40% deserved A's. Give 'em what they deserve and quit curving because you can't make a fair test that accurately tests the objectives you expect the students to learn.

you're forgetting that students take more than one class a year.

 

[Mears]

I've since sold it to my brother since I'm a poor college student. Great sub. He replaced my ESX Q4751 with a MMATS DD300HC, which did it a little more justice.

 

[beer]

Originally posted by: Electric Amish

Why does it have to be certain percentages at any given section?

amish

By your logic and "reasoning," by the time students graduated, there wouldn't be any students left in the class. No one I have ever met in our EE program comes close to making a 70% in each and every class they make. Professors make different tests, some harder than others, and by forcing each professor to have so many As, so many Bs, etc etc, you can identify your good students from students that just had an easy professor.

And no, professors will not "standardize" tests. This isn't high school again.

 

[WhiteKnight]

Here at Johns Hopkins most of the engineering courses are curved to a C.

 

[Anubis]

no curve at my school.

it punishes the dumb