What's in YOUR wallet? (hint: it is not money) UPDATE: INTERVIEW WITH AUTHOR

[TuxDave]

Originally posted by: OS

Originally posted by: XZeroII

Originally posted by: shazbot
heres a simple question, why do you value and trust "gold"? if you can answer that, then you've answered the question on trust.

I can tell you why I value and trust it more than nothing. It is rare, it has substance, it can't be counterfit, it is more difficult to lie about.

Gold does have fixed scarcity, but lets say the apocalypse comes (which is more or less what it would take to destroy the US gov), how exactly will having gold, or any other non basic necessity, be useful to you?

If you go to ANY other kind of nonbarter system, you have the same problem where the "money" doesn't have any worth outside the context of the society.

Society as we know it is based on the respect of property ownership, which requires a strong government, which is what our money is based on, faith in the strength of our government. In a complete anarchy, it would be a free for all, not even gold would have consistent value.

Exactly. So as you were saying XZeroII, gold has value in our society. We all believe it will hold a decent amount of value and purchasing power. But if gold turned out to be something that no one wanted (for whatever reason), people would end up exchanging as much gold as they can to something else that holds value making gold useless as a currency.

 

[waggy]

are we poorer then people were in the 50's (ignoring inflation etc)? No.

But we are farther in debt. People today have to have everything NOW. My grandparents were able to save and buy what the needed in cash. They were also able to SAVE enough to retire.

 

[XZeroII]

Originally posted by: z0mb13

Originally posted by: XZeroII

Originally posted by: z0mb13

Originally posted by: XZeroII
I'm sorry if you have explained this before, but could you explain this, 'trust'. I know what a trust is and such, but could you explain it to me in a very simple way so that I can grasp the concept you are trying to say. I don't see how replacing pig feathers with trust could help anything.

wow.. hmm how do I explain trust..
ok trust is like good will. lets say that you and I are good friends. I lend you money, and I TRUST you to return it to me in the future. Is it possible that you will not return the money? yes it is, but why did I lend the money to you in the first place? Its simply because I TRUST you. If I dont trust you, I will not lend you the money.

The case is similar to the greenback. All of the users of the dollar (both americans and also international entities) trust that the dollar will be good for trading, and also good for keeping value. If these people does not trust the dollar, they will simply not use it.

An example where the general public lose trust to a currency is the argentinian currency. Even argentina people didnt have trust in the currecny, and as a result, the argentinian peso (is it peso?) devalued greatly. well the starting cause is because of hyperinflation since the argentinian gov is printing money like a mofo

Alright. But how is that just as good as, or better than pig feathers? IMO, that is significantly worse. We just trust that our money is has value and that our gov't is being responsible. We have no way of actually verifying that this true. With that system, the value of our money is 100% arbitrary and 100% controlled by our gov't (actually the federal reserve). If they decide that our money is worth too much, they will start printing more. If it's not worth enough, they print less. But who decides this? Are they elected(rhetorical)? What reason do we actually have to trust that they are making these decisions with our best interests in mind? If these are rich people making these decisions, woudn't it make sense that they would always keep the little people down, like history has shown happens?

Again, please don't think that I am arguing for a gold standard.

Summary of my questions that I would like answered (the rest were pretty much rhetorical):
How is that just as good as, or better than pig feathers?
What reason do we actually have to trust that they are making these decisions with our best interests in mind?

its better and worse in some ways.

Why did they put so much trust into pig feathers in the first place?

not using pig feathers is advantegous in some ways: the overhead cost of transferring, buying, selling pig feathers (not including storing em). Also increasing or decreasing money supply cannot be done instantly

disadvantage: its all now based on trust. If this trust is gone, the currency is kaput.

They put their trust into pig feathers because it was valuable to everyone at the time, most likely because it was rare, so it could not be counterfit easily.

I completely understand your advantages and agree. However, I still think that the whole system is highly unstable for the reasons I mentioned. The federal reserve answers to no one and we have no real control over them. They have complete control over our economy. Rather than supply/demand governing our monetary supply, it's in the hands of potentially power hungry individuals.

 

[StageLeft]

Um, So?

 

[shazbot]

Originally posted by: TuxDave

Gold does have fixed scarcity, but lets say the apocalypse comes (which is more or less what it would take to destroy the US gov), how exactly will having gold, or any other non basic necessity, be useful to you?

If you go to ANY other kind of nonbarter system, you have the same problem where the "money" doesn't have any worth outside the context of the society.

Society as we know it is based on the respect of property ownership, which requires a strong government, which is what our money is based on, faith in the strength of our government. In a complete anarchy, it would be a free for all, not even gold would have consistent value.

Exactly. So as you were saying XZeroII, gold has value in our society. We all believe it will hold a decent amount of value and purchasing power. But if gold turned out to be something that no one wanted (for whatever reason), people would end up exchanging as much gold as they can to something else that holds value making gold useless as a currency.[/quote]


which makes gold exactly like fiat money. Its all in the head. The only thing moving to a gold standard would do is to limit budgets. Thats it.

 

[shazbot]

jesus christ, the US dollar is backed up not by gold, but by the GOODS, SERVICES, and GOODWILL of the U.S, just like every other currency. there is no fundamental reason to value gold over the goodwill of a country, unless you're a douche, in which case then I guess its okay.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: TuxDave

Originally posted by: OS

Originally posted by: XZeroII

Originally posted by: shazbot
heres a simple question, why do you value and trust "gold"? if you can answer that, then you've answered the question on trust.

I can tell you why I value and trust it more than nothing. It is rare, it has substance, it can't be counterfit, it is more difficult to lie about.

Gold does have fixed scarcity, but lets say the apocalypse comes (which is more or less what it would take to destroy the US gov), how exactly will having gold, or any other non basic necessity, be useful to you?

If you go to ANY other kind of nonbarter system, you have the same problem where the "money" doesn't have any worth outside the context of the society.

Society as we know it is based on the respect of property ownership, which requires a strong government, which is what our money is based on, faith in the strength of our government. In a complete anarchy, it would be a free for all, not even gold would have consistent value.

Exactly. So as you were saying XZeroII, gold has value in our society. We all believe it will hold a decent amount of value and purchasing power. But if gold turned out to be something that no one wanted (for whatever reason), people would end up exchanging as much gold as they can to something else that holds value making gold useless as a currency.

That could happen but that is irrelevant. If gold start to fall out of fashion for whatever reason, another commodity with intrinsic value would be used in its place. One can only guess what that would be, for what the future holds cannot be predicted, and what intrinsic value would be in the future cannot be predicted as well. It just happens that as of today gold and silver are the best backing of a currency. Pick whatever you want as a currency, just make sure that is backed by a viable commodity that has intrinsic value.

 

[Eli]

Originally posted by: shazbot
jesus christ, the US dollar is backed up not by gold, but by the GOODS, SERVICES, and GOODWILL of the U.S, just like every other currency. there is no fundamental reason to value gold over the goodwill of a country, unless you're a douche, in which case then I guess its okay.

pwn3d.

 

[Balthazar]

From the sounds of it this book should come with 50 HUGE glossy prints of tinfoil hats....

 

[sxr7171]

quote:
At law, a pay-back agreement is called a Note only when it has four essential parts or elements. If a written instrument does not have all four of these elements, it is not a Note. What, then, are the four elements needed in a written instrument for it to be a Note at law?

The first element needed is the identity of the document's maker, or who originated it. In the case of your Note to the bank, you would be the maker.

The second element needed is the name of the party which is to receive payment.

The third element needed is the due-date, a specific date when each periodic payment is due and payable, or the date the Note is to be paid by a single payment (as in a ninety-day Note).

The fourth and last element needed is the Dollar-amount of the loan or pay-back.


As for the second, third and fourth stipulations:

2nd: A dollar bill clearly states that the holder is to receive the payment.

3rd: There is no date as you are entitled to receive payment at any time.

4th: The dollar amount is written where it says "one dollar" on a one dollar note.



Also whoever said interest rates do not keep up with inflation needs to take Econ 101, and pay attention during the class when they talk about nominal rates and real rates.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: sxr7171
quote:
At law, a pay-back agreement is called a Note only when it has four essential parts or elements. If a written instrument does not have all four of these elements, it is not a Note. What, then, are the four elements needed in a written instrument for it to be a Note at law?

The first element needed is the identity of the document's maker, or who originated it. In the case of your Note to the bank, you would be the maker.

The second element needed is the name of the party which is to receive payment.

The third element needed is the due-date, a specific date when each periodic payment is due and payable, or the date the Note is to be paid by a single payment (as in a ninety-day Note).

The fourth and last element needed is the Dollar-amount of the loan or pay-back.


As for the second, third and fourth stipulations:

2nd: A dollar bill clearly states that the holder is to receive the payment.

3rd: There is no date as you are entitled to receive payment at any time.

4th: The dollar amount is written where it says "one dollar" on a one dollar note.



Also whoever said interest rates do not keep up with inflation needs to take Econ 101, and pay attention during the class when they talk about nominal rates and real rates.

2nd: What??? The holder is to receive payment in what? Other FRTs? (see 3rd & 4th)

3rd: Um, that was true when real Federal Reserve Notes said the following: Will Pay to the Bearer on Demand X Dollars. Now it doesn't say anything about payment to anyone anywhere. It merely has the nonsensical statement: THIS NOTE IS LEGAL TENDER FOR ALL DEBTS, PUBLIC AND PRIVATE.

4th: Uh, so if I gave you an IOU that said payment was due today and you gave it back to me demanding payment, I could simply turn around and give you another IOU? This sounds like an excellent idea. I can easily print up a couple hundred IOUs if you are interested. (also, see definitions of dollar)

Federal Reserve Tokens are like the 'green stamp' premiums of the 1950s, except that when you turn these green stamps in, all you get are more green stamps."

- Mobley Milam, former assistant U.S. Attorney in San Diego, in a telephone conversation with the author (of Money - Ye shall have honest weights and measures) in March 1998

 

[CTho9305]

Originally posted by: Dissipate
4th: Uh, so if I gave you an IOU that said payment was due today and you gave it back to me demanding payment, I could simply turn around and give you another IOU? This sounds like an excellent idea. I can easily print up a couple hundred IOUs if you are interested. (also, see definitions of dollar)

Only a problem because 1) I don't trust you, and 2) nobody else wants your IOU. There's no reason your IOU wouldn't be accepted if EVERYONE else decided to trust you and use them as a representation of value.

Federal Reserve Tokens are like the 'green stamp' premiums of the 1950s, except that when you turn these green stamps in, all you get are more green stamps."

- Mobley Milam, former assistant U.S. Attorney in San Diego, in a telephone conversation with the author (of Money - Ye shall have honest weights and measures) in March 1998

So? Other people will give me stuff for those green stamps. Those green stamps are convenient. Where's the problem? There isn't a problem until the government collapses.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: CTho9305

Originally posted by: Dissipate
4th: Uh, so if I gave you an IOU that said payment was due today and you gave it back to me demanding payment, I could simply turn around and give you another IOU? This sounds like an excellent idea. I can easily print up a couple hundred IOUs if you are interested. (also, see definitions of dollar)

Only a problem because 1) I don't trust you, and 2) nobody else wants your IOU. There's no reason your IOU wouldn't be accepted if EVERYONE else decided to trust you and use them as a representation of value.

Federal Reserve Tokens are like the 'green stamp' premiums of the 1950s, except that when you turn these green stamps in, all you get are more green stamps."

- Mobley Milam, former assistant U.S. Attorney in San Diego, in a telephone conversation with the author (of Money - Ye shall have honest weights and measures) in March 1998

So? Other people will give me stuff for those green stamps. Those green stamps are convenient. Where's the problem? There isn't a problem until the government collapses.

What?! Ok, so let's say I start issuing Notes which clearly state the Maker, Payee, Due-date and the dollar amount (dollar of the correct definition), and these Notes are redeemable for dollars on demand. The Notes start circulating and I pay each bearer on demand X dollars according to what the Note says on it. Keep in mind that these Notes have no expiration date. Then after awhile I decide to get crafty, I remove the language that says who will be paid and when. I pull all the old Notes out of circulation and declare that any old Notes will no longer be redeemable. However, I continue calling these instruments Notes and people still circulate them and accept them as payment, many of which still believing that they are redeemable for dollars. How is this not fraud? By the way, also, through this process I have gotten the people who accepted my Notes to believe that the Notes themselves are dollars and the dollar is no longer a weight of a measure.

If I did this I would probably go to prison for 20 years, but when a politician who wears a fine hat gets on a soapbox and tells us this is for "our own good", it is suddenly no longer fraud?

Answer me this: Why do the real FRNs clearly state: Will pay to the bearer on demand X dollars, if the Notes are dollars themselves?! The answer is that the Notes are NOT dollars themselves, because if they were the statement that used to be printed on them would be totally nonsensical. By removing that statement the government literally attempted to change the definition of dollar overnight. The public didn't notice because through verbicide and colloquialisms the public had already started calling the Notes themselves dollars. Taking advantage of this situation is akin to going to a garage sale and buying a priceless painting of which the seller had no idea of the value thereof.

Your argument relating to trust is based on the idea that the government is above the law and it can renig on its promises whenever and however it wants and can mislabel instruments that are supposed to be legal documents. This is not trust, this is the opposite of trust.

 

[mattg1981]

too long to read

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: mattg1981
too long to read

Cliff Notes:

• What you believe to be a Federal Reserve Note or dollar is neither a Note or a dollar.

• What you believe to be a dollar bill is not a bill at all.

• What you are really using as money everyday is what is known as a Federal Reserve Token, similar to a token you get at an arcade or amusement park.

 

[sonambulo]

dissipate

what do you want out of all of this?

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: sonambulo
dissipate

what do you want out of all of this?

For those who are uninformed to become informed, and for those who are in denial to either cease being in denial or understand why their denial is incorrect. That is all.

 

[Mill]

Go take an intro to econ class or graduate HS. The gold/silver standard issue was known by me in the 6th grade. It is in every in-depth US history book I've ever seen. You're just a goddamn moron.

 

[Dissipate]

Originally posted by: Mill
Go take an intro to econ class or graduate HS. The gold/silver standard issue was known by me in the 6th grade. It is in every in-depth US history book I've ever seen. You're just a goddamn moron.

All I can say is: read above.

If I am a moron why would you take the trouble in telling me so? That is akin to telling a retard he is a retard, serves no purpose. Therefore, your calling me a moron actually reinforces the fact that I am not. Thank you.

 

[Mill]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Mill
Go take an intro to econ class or graduate HS. The gold/silver standard issue was known by me in the 6th grade. It is in every in-depth US history book I've ever seen. You're just a goddamn moron.

All I can say is: read above.

If I am a moron why would you take the trouble in telling me so? That is akin to telling a retard he is a retard, serves no purpose. Therefore, your calling me a moron actually reinforces the fact that I am not. Thank you.

Nice fallacious logic there, but my point was simple. You are, in fact, quite a fvcking moron. Me telling you are a moron serves two purposes. One: I release pure vile hatred onto your soul. Two: You might realize you are a fvcking moron and kill yourself.

 

[OS]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Mill
Go take an intro to econ class or graduate HS. The gold/silver standard issue was known by me in the 6th grade. It is in every in-depth US history book I've ever seen. You're just a goddamn moron.

All I can say is: read above.

If I am a moron why would you take the trouble in telling me so? That is akin to telling a retard he is a retard, serves no purpose. Therefore, your calling me a moron actually reinforces the fact that I am not. Thank you.

Except that you're a dumbass and you don't even know it. Some ones gotta break the bad news to you.

 

[TuxDave]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: mattg1981
too long to read

Cliff Notes:

• What you believe to be a Federal Reserve Note or dollar is neither a Note or a dollar.

• What you believe to be a dollar bill is not a bill at all.

• What you are really using as money everyday is what is known as a Federal Reserve Token, similar to a token you get at an arcade or amusement park.

Thank you for the information. Perhaps the terminology is flawed. However, the general consensus is that our fiat money system is just fine. That is what you need to argue. Nothing has 'intrinsic' value.

 

[Indolent]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: Mill
Go take an intro to econ class or graduate HS. The gold/silver standard issue was known by me in the 6th grade. It is in every in-depth US history book I've ever seen. You're just a goddamn moron.

All I can say is: read above.

If I am a moron why would you take the trouble in telling me so? That is akin to telling a retard he is a retard, serves no purpose. Therefore, your calling me a moron actually reinforces the fact that I am not. Thank you.

I, along with many others I'm guessing, get a good laugh from all of your "logic."



That is all. I won't even argue any other points because it would be a waste of both of our times.

 

[sonambulo]

Originally posted by: Dissipate

Originally posted by: sonambulo
dissipate

what do you want out of all of this?

For those who are uninformed to become informed, and for those who are in denial to either cease being in denial or understand why their denial is incorrect. That is all.

that's really great. i'm glad for you. and this is only in regards to the issue raised in the op, correct?

 

[Thegonagle]

Holy Jeebus! The $55 price for the book is a scam in itself.