Yup,
Tops at 1024x768x32: Radeon DDR 64 with 64.5
(Voodoo5 comes in at 3rd with 59.5, after both Radeons)
Tops at 1280x1024x32: Radeon DDR 64 with 54.8 (by a big margin, BTW)
(Voodoo5 comes in at 5th with 41.4)
And at 1600x1200x16, the Voodoo5 is second to the last out of 12, with 28.4.
I'm not saying that Voodoo5 (or Nvidia) sucks. The difference between them is pretty small and I think they all rock compared to my G200/SLI Voodoo2 setup!
(I just picked up a Radeon DDR 32MB, but haven't installed it yet. I know I'm crazy, but I won my V2s from 3dfx (back then it was 3Dfx) at E3 '98, so I'm kinda attached to them...
Tops at 1024x768x32: Radeon DDR 64 with 64.5
(Voodoo5 comes in at 3rd with 59.5, after both Radeons)
Tops at 1280x1024x32: Radeon DDR 64 with 54.8 (by a big margin, BTW)
(Voodoo5 comes in at 5th with 41.4)
And at 1600x1200x16, the Voodoo5 is second to the last out of 12, with 28.4.
I'm not saying that Voodoo5 (or Nvidia) sucks. The difference between them is pretty small and I think they all rock compared to my G200/SLI Voodoo2 setup!
(I just picked up a Radeon DDR 32MB, but haven't installed it yet. I know I'm crazy, but I won my V2s from 3dfx (back then it was 3Dfx) at E3 '98, so I'm kinda attached to them...
shane: I meant a link showing the radeon's 32 bit color quality being better than the GF2's quality. Look at Quake 3 GF2 vs radeon in 32 bit it color. The GF2 wins.
I have owned all three...The 64meg Geforce GTS, The Voodoo5 5500 and now the 64meg Radeon Vivo..
Hands down after all three........................................THE RADEON!!!!
This card has the best graphics, speed and features of any card I have ever owned...I know the GTS may be a little faster but I can't tell a difference playing games...Except they look a heck of a lot better!!!!
Hands down after all three........................................THE RADEON!!!!
This card has the best graphics, speed and features of any card I have ever owned...I know the GTS may be a little faster but I can't tell a difference playing games...Except they look a heck of a lot better!!!!
well in some of the games i could tell the differnce in saturation level favoring radeon (ie in DMZG) between gf1/2 and radeon. altho i havnt owned a v5 i had a chance to test run few games on my friend's 'puta. that 22bit rendering crap may eliminate some of dithering, i still found voodoo cards to have somewhat washed out color scheme - nothing to do with gamma at all. FSAA really isnt reality unless you play older games and with so many new games to play i dont have time to play the games that have been played 1000x times. v5 still comes last in terms of image quality IMO.
a few brief points:
1) Those UT scores where the Radeon beat the 5500 in UT were D3d only, and were with the old drivers. Using glide, the 5500 takes down both the Radeon AND the Ultra in UT. Also, the 1.03 drivers fix the 1600x1200 D3d driver bug
2) The 5500's drivers allow for quite a bit of tweeking to both image quality and speed. There are A TON of options. Check out the tweeking guide at www.3dspotlight.com to see all the stuff you can do in there. The washed out look of the 5500 has more to do with gamma and lodbias settings, which are different on their default than other cards.
Also, BFG, why do you 'weep' when you see UT benchmarks? Hate to see your nvidia boys get their asses handed to them?
Ben, I understand your points. However, it's all about the games, for me. I'm not about to debate "professional graphics workstations" with you. Not my cup o' java. I play games, cuz I'm dumb and I like mindless entertainment. <g>
as far as the Radeon defaulting to the 16-bit, just disable it. You gotta go into the drivers of both the GTS and RAdeon to enable anisotropic, so while you're there, make the switch.
"the 2d of the GTS is noticeably inferior to both the 5500 and the Radeon."
Only on Trinitron tubed monitors."
uh.....so I should change out my excellent Trinitron monitors because the GTS doesn't like them? Trinitrons are pretty darn good monitors, and they're pretty popular. Herein lies my ONLY true complaint about the GTS and GeForce based cards...you gotta turn your damn computer world all around to get the snatches to work properly. You gotta futz with different driver revisions, different motherboards, different monitors, WTF???? I like the 5500 cuz I plug it in, and it works great. I play a game, it works great. I change out hardware, it still works great. I get a new driver, I AUTOMATICALLY upgrade to it, because it will offer bug fixes for the minor bugs that were present, and improves speed (in the case of 1.03, significantly improves speed).
Look at it this way, if you are a COMPUTER TECHNICIAN, and a client of yours buys a new GTS card, and gives you a call and says "hey, which driver should I use?", I cringe, especially if he has an Athlon system. This person's $$$ is what keeps yhou in business. He gives you his $$$ because he trusts you and your knowledge. I'd LOVE to say "upgrade to the latest driver, and you can play your favorite games". Unfortunately, I can't do that. Especially if he has an Athlon system.
Brotherman: "FSAA really isnt reality unless you play older games and with so many new games to play i dont have time to play the games that have been played 1000x times"
MDK2, 1024x768x22 w/2xFSAA enabled - just under 75 fps using 1.03. Does that meet with your approval? How about 1024x768 w/4xFSAA enabled in NFS-PU, SMOOTH AS SILK? Is that okay?
BW, glad you like to watch demos. Some of us buy these cards to play games. To each his/her own.
Doomguy: "NVidia's cards are less suseptable to pixel popping because of thier far superior opengl drivers. "
I'll agree with you on their superior OGL drivers, no doubt, but your remark about being less susceptible to pixel popping is just borderline ridiculous. <shakes head>
han888: "shanehi,the 64MB gts beat the voodoo5 on 32 bit at 1280 X 1024 on the link u give us, just look funny, voodoo5 is the king of glide, but the geforce card still have a chance to beat the voodoo5"
well, there are a few points here:
1) Those are with the old 1.01 drivers. The 1.03's give a nice performance increase
2) NOBODY with a 5500 plays UT in D3d. It's stupid. They play in glide, which gives a good 10-15 fps performance increase
3) D3d turns off volumetric lighting and detail textures. Glide enables them by default, and the 5500, with those defaults left ON in glide, owns the GTS with the defaults left OFF.
1) Those UT scores where the Radeon beat the 5500 in UT were D3d only, and were with the old drivers. Using glide, the 5500 takes down both the Radeon AND the Ultra in UT. Also, the 1.03 drivers fix the 1600x1200 D3d driver bug
2) The 5500's drivers allow for quite a bit of tweeking to both image quality and speed. There are A TON of options. Check out the tweeking guide at www.3dspotlight.com to see all the stuff you can do in there. The washed out look of the 5500 has more to do with gamma and lodbias settings, which are different on their default than other cards.
Also, BFG, why do you 'weep' when you see UT benchmarks? Hate to see your nvidia boys get their asses handed to them?
Ben, I understand your points. However, it's all about the games, for me. I'm not about to debate "professional graphics workstations" with you. Not my cup o' java. I play games, cuz I'm dumb and I like mindless entertainment. <g>
as far as the Radeon defaulting to the 16-bit, just disable it. You gotta go into the drivers of both the GTS and RAdeon to enable anisotropic, so while you're there, make the switch.
"the 2d of the GTS is noticeably inferior to both the 5500 and the Radeon."
Only on Trinitron tubed monitors."
uh.....so I should change out my excellent Trinitron monitors because the GTS doesn't like them? Trinitrons are pretty darn good monitors, and they're pretty popular. Herein lies my ONLY true complaint about the GTS and GeForce based cards...you gotta turn your damn computer world all around to get the snatches to work properly. You gotta futz with different driver revisions, different motherboards, different monitors, WTF???? I like the 5500 cuz I plug it in, and it works great. I play a game, it works great. I change out hardware, it still works great. I get a new driver, I AUTOMATICALLY upgrade to it, because it will offer bug fixes for the minor bugs that were present, and improves speed (in the case of 1.03, significantly improves speed).
Look at it this way, if you are a COMPUTER TECHNICIAN, and a client of yours buys a new GTS card, and gives you a call and says "hey, which driver should I use?", I cringe, especially if he has an Athlon system. This person's $$$ is what keeps yhou in business. He gives you his $$$ because he trusts you and your knowledge. I'd LOVE to say "upgrade to the latest driver, and you can play your favorite games". Unfortunately, I can't do that. Especially if he has an Athlon system.
Brotherman: "FSAA really isnt reality unless you play older games and with so many new games to play i dont have time to play the games that have been played 1000x times"
MDK2, 1024x768x22 w/2xFSAA enabled - just under 75 fps using 1.03. Does that meet with your approval? How about 1024x768 w/4xFSAA enabled in NFS-PU, SMOOTH AS SILK? Is that okay?
BW, glad you like to watch demos. Some of us buy these cards to play games. To each his/her own.
Doomguy: "NVidia's cards are less suseptable to pixel popping because of thier far superior opengl drivers. "
I'll agree with you on their superior OGL drivers, no doubt, but your remark about being less susceptible to pixel popping is just borderline ridiculous. <shakes head>
han888: "shanehi,the 64MB gts beat the voodoo5 on 32 bit at 1280 X 1024 on the link u give us, just look funny, voodoo5 is the king of glide, but the geforce card still have a chance to beat the voodoo5"
well, there are a few points here:
1) Those are with the old 1.01 drivers. The 1.03's give a nice performance increase
2) NOBODY with a 5500 plays UT in D3d. It's stupid. They play in glide, which gives a good 10-15 fps performance increase
3) D3d turns off volumetric lighting and detail textures. Glide enables them by default, and the 5500, with those defaults left ON in glide, owns the GTS with the defaults left OFF.
Robo-
The Radeons also have some problems with some Trinitron monitors(though it seems to be mainly just Sony offerings). The V5 doesn't seem to have these issues, nor does the G400, but if ATi and nVidia are having problems with Sony, it starts to make me think it may not be either companies fault.
The Radeon is the best overall gaming board you can buy right now IMHO, better then the GF2 or V5 for the majority of users.
BTW-
"I'll agree with you on their superior OGL drivers, no doubt, but your remark about being less susceptible to pixel popping is just borderline ridiculous. <shakes head>"
Spec's ViewPerf measures this, he is right.
When all the talk about FSAA fixing pixel popping I must admit I was rather confused, it simply isn't a concern for me. This may be in part to the fact that I have a specific torture test for my board which has me running 20MHZ below what it can(@130/301, can do 150/340 for eight hours playing Quake3 10x7 32bit UHQ no problems) and still play games fine, I can't stand visual imperfections such as pixel popping particularly when working.
At default clock, the Radeon, V5 and G400 show roughly ten times the pixel variations(popping or improperly rendered) that the GF boards do based on a test designed to show it. For the record the Wildcat 4210 is the champ in this class that I have seen, and the GF is nearly three times worse then it.
The Radeons also have some problems with some Trinitron monitors(though it seems to be mainly just Sony offerings). The V5 doesn't seem to have these issues, nor does the G400, but if ATi and nVidia are having problems with Sony, it starts to make me think it may not be either companies fault.
The Radeon is the best overall gaming board you can buy right now IMHO, better then the GF2 or V5 for the majority of users.
BTW-
"I'll agree with you on their superior OGL drivers, no doubt, but your remark about being less susceptible to pixel popping is just borderline ridiculous. <shakes head>"
Spec's ViewPerf measures this, he is right.
When all the talk about FSAA fixing pixel popping I must admit I was rather confused, it simply isn't a concern for me. This may be in part to the fact that I have a specific torture test for my board which has me running 20MHZ below what it can(@130/301, can do 150/340 for eight hours playing Quake3 10x7 32bit UHQ no problems) and still play games fine, I can't stand visual imperfections such as pixel popping particularly when working.
At default clock, the Radeon, V5 and G400 show roughly ten times the pixel variations(popping or improperly rendered) that the GF boards do based on a test designed to show it. For the record the Wildcat 4210 is the champ in this class that I have seen, and the GF is nearly three times worse then it.
<< if ATi and nVidia are having problems with Sony, it starts to make me think it may not be either companies fault. >>
perhaps, but I know a few peeps with shiney new Radeons who swear by Trinitrons. go figure.
of course, Matrox and 3dfx *don't* have issues, so maybe it is a basic issue that the Radeon and the nvidia chips have with Trinitron?
<< The Radeon is the best overall gaming board you can buy right now IMHO, better then the GF2 or V5 for the majority of users. >>
well, that is certainly a valid opinion, but I haven't used the Radeon, so I'm not going to offer up stuff either way.
<< Spec's ViewPerf measures this, he is right. >>
oy vey dude, more theoretical stuff.
Okay, remember who you're talking to. Professional OpenGL applications, the GeForce cards rule in, I agree, when compared to the 5500 and the Radeon. No doubt, up and down, etc. I'm talking about games and only that.
"of course, Matrox and 3dfx *don't* have issues, so maybe it is a basic issue that the Radeon and the nvidia chips have with Trinitron?"
Definately a possibility, it seems odd though that both boards have problems with Trinitron monitors only. The Radeon's issues aren't nearly as severe as the GF based boards, perhaps some of the technolgy Sony uses to produce their extremely crisp images doesn't "get along" with certain parts of the GF2 or Radeon, don't know for sure.
"well, that is certainly a valid opinion, but I haven't used the Radeon, so I'm not going to offer up stuff either way."
With all the money you drop on hardware you still haven't picked one up??
"oy vey dude, more theoretical stuff."
Trust me, you can't miss it. You can see the GF based boards having their own issues on this test, they just are much better then the other offerings.
"Okay, remember who you're talking to. Professional OpenGL applications, the GeForce cards rule in, I agree, when compared to the 5500 and the Radeon. No doubt, up and down, etc. I'm talking about games and only that."
I know, I know, but Doomguy was correct in his statement. This does have an impact on gaming, over and over the 3dfx fans were talking about how great it was going to be to get rid of pixel popping with FSAA and how this(RGSS) was a huge advantage over nVidia's FSAA. nVidia's boards don't suffer from nearly the level of pixel popping that the other companies boards do, it is much less of a factor.
It isn't a major issue with gaming, but Doomguy was correct in his statement that nVidia boards are less prone to pixel popping.
Definately a possibility, it seems odd though that both boards have problems with Trinitron monitors only. The Radeon's issues aren't nearly as severe as the GF based boards, perhaps some of the technolgy Sony uses to produce their extremely crisp images doesn't "get along" with certain parts of the GF2 or Radeon, don't know for sure.
"well, that is certainly a valid opinion, but I haven't used the Radeon, so I'm not going to offer up stuff either way."
With all the money you drop on hardware you still haven't picked one up??
"oy vey dude, more theoretical stuff."
Trust me, you can't miss it. You can see the GF based boards having their own issues on this test, they just are much better then the other offerings.
"Okay, remember who you're talking to. Professional OpenGL applications, the GeForce cards rule in, I agree, when compared to the 5500 and the Radeon. No doubt, up and down, etc. I'm talking about games and only that.
"I know, I know, but Doomguy was correct in his statement. This does have an impact on gaming, over and over the 3dfx fans were talking about how great it was going to be to get rid of pixel popping with FSAA and how this(RGSS) was a huge advantage over nVidia's FSAA. nVidia's boards don't suffer from nearly the level of pixel popping that the other companies boards do, it is much less of a factor.
It isn't a major issue with gaming, but Doomguy was correct in his statement that nVidia boards are less prone to pixel popping.
What I like most about FSAA is losing the "shimmering."
I never even noticed it before I got this V5. Now if I don't have FSAA enabled, it drives me nuts.
I never even noticed it before I got this V5. Now if I don't have FSAA enabled, it drives me nuts.
yeah to each his own... ANY q3 engine based games (RA3, Q3A, FAKK2, Elite Force) , UT WITH S3TC enhanced (not plain dull glide) textures and CS, which are some of the games i spent most of my time on, cant be ran ideally with FSAA on, not even 2x (higher rez is much more plausible idea here). i have never been a big fan of racing/simulation games - they are just as good as game demos to me, if not worse.
<< UT WITH S3TC enhanced (not plain dull glide) >>
"plain dull glide"??? ROFL....okay man, whatever....
ENOUGH ALREADY!! I'm so sick of the Radeon/GF2/Voodoo debate. Each card has its advantages and disadvantages depending on what you use it for or what games you play most. The only way you should decide is by reading some of the reviews/shootouts between the cards, And don't worry, there are PLENTY of reviews on this subject on almost every tech site. If you want some good opinions from people on the forum try being more specific on what features you are looking for in a vid card or you get a lot of "this card sucks" or "this card rules" with no explanation why.
do you seriously think unreal looks better in glide than with loki's S3TC enabled OGL drivers? i know glide does look better than d3d but S3TC seems to eat the glide visuals alive.
I run UT and FAKK2 at 1024x768 resolution, with 2xFSAA enabled. They run perfectly smooth, and look much better than 1280x1024 resolution.
what is your definition of 'perfectly smooth'? i cant stand occasional slowdowns. maybe voodoo5 is so much faster than radeon is? i gotta check v5 out again on my friend's computer..
Perfectly smooth means just that to me... perfect. I won't put up with even one instance of slowdown.
2xFSAA is barely a performance hit, especially in UT.
2xFSAA is barely a performance hit, especially in UT.
BrotherMan, glide looks almost as good as the S3TC. Definitely not *as good*, but understand that you take quite a performance hit in OGL and D3d when you enable the *other* texture stuff (i.e. detail textures = true, volumetric lighting). The hit isn't quite as brutal in glide.
for the record, I'm trying to figure out how to get the 5500 to use the S3TC textures too.
As far as "perfectly smooth" with the 5500, I'm a stickler, I HATE HATE HATE slowdowns.
I don't enable 2xFSAA in UT, but I haven't farted with it much lately. I *do* enable 2xFSAA in MDK2 @ 1024x768, and it looks OUTSTANDING.
speed-wise, both us have o/c'ed 5500's. At default speeds, the 5500 is kinda slow, but then again, the 300a and 366 Celerons were quite "doggish" before they were overclocked.
for the record, I'm trying to figure out how to get the 5500 to use the S3TC textures too.
As far as "perfectly smooth" with the 5500, I'm a stickler, I HATE HATE HATE slowdowns.
I don't enable 2xFSAA in UT, but I haven't farted with it much lately. I *do* enable 2xFSAA in MDK2 @ 1024x768, and it looks OUTSTANDING.
speed-wise, both us have o/c'ed 5500's. At default speeds, the 5500 is kinda slow, but then again, the 300a and 366 Celerons were quite "doggish" before they were overclocked.
hmm... it appears those 3dfx boys refined the v5 thru a series of driver update, now v5 is finally able to go toe to toe with gts and radeon... now its truly up to whatcha like, slightly better FSAA / glide, or better saturation and contrast / dvd assist / whole buncha new feature set from which you would benefit from in the future... both are nice cards to have for the present.
BrotherMan, that's what I'm saying. The 5500 was fast enough before, now it's darn near as fast as the Radeon and 5500.
Selling points:
1) OGL - GTS rules
2) features - Radeon rules
3) HW and game compatibility - 5500 rules
4) FSAA - 5500 rules
5) Linux/Win2k gaming speed - GTS rules
Selling points:
1) OGL - GTS rules
2) features - Radeon rules
3) HW and game compatibility - 5500 rules
4) FSAA - 5500 rules
5) Linux/Win2k gaming speed - GTS rules
wait a sec, do you actually have 5000 fans on your case? lol
<< SuperMicro 750a w/5000 case fans >>
<< SuperMicro 750a w/5000 case fans >>
If you mean "better" to mean:
-better colour computation
-better text sharpness
-less heat
-more efficient memory untilization
-better design
-better non overclocked fps rendering
-more stable/cooler chips
-smaller fans
then crawl out from that Nvidia/3Dfx rock and click
on the following link to find out what 30 internet
hardware sites think about product that has garnered
several "product of the show" awards and is
creating happy smiley people
-better colour computation
-better text sharpness
-less heat
-more efficient memory untilization
-better design
-better non overclocked fps rendering
-more stable/cooler chips
-smaller fans
then crawl out from that Nvidia/3Dfx rock and click
on the following link to find out what 30 internet
hardware sites think about product that has garnered
several "product of the show" awards and is
creating happy smiley people
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