yup, I distinctly remember Dave starting some very pro-christian/anti-muslim threads. Archives don't go back that far though, cause of the Bush conspiracy.Originally posted by: Red Dawn
If I remember right when P&N first started you were kind of like that other P&N's other Religious lunatic constantly posting about an upcoming civil war between the Fundies and those who weren't Fundies. All of a sudden you did a complete 180.Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: nCred
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
So are you saying it was the 9-11 Forum???
Then how do you explain that it was called the "War In Iraq" Forum???
Yeah, I searched and the oldest thread in P&N was from 3/20 2003 or somewhere around there.
That's because it didn't exist.
Never ceases to amaze at how well Brainwashed the Bush Aplogists are.
It's actually getting deeper after the Election but guess should have expected that.
Of course, we wouldn't talk about how SADDAM was killing innocent Iraqi's, or how Kim Jong Il has slave labor camps in N. Korea, or about the Genocide of half a million people in Rwanda...nope, it's only worth talking about if the US is directly involved
Jason
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Oh I'm sure we'd find SOMETHING to bitch about
Sure, you righties would be bitching how Clinton's penis is destroying the country.
(oh wait...you're still doing that anyway)
Well ONE of the pretenses turns out to be false (WMD, which may be error or may be lie, and no one REALLY knows for sure), but the other one, that the Iraqi people were suffering under a brutal dictator, is a legitimate fact. And like it or not, it was PLENTY of reason to go in, though that's really topic for another thread (and they are exhaustingly innumerable at this point...)
Jason
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Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Originally posted by: nCred
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
So are you saying it was the 9-11 Forum???
Then how do you explain that it was called the "War In Iraq" Forum???
Yeah, I searched and the oldest thread in P&N was from 3/20 2003 or somewhere around there.
That's because it didn't exist.
Never ceases to amaze at how well Brainwashed the Bush Aplogists are.
It's actually getting deeper after the Election but guess should have expected that.
"Bush apologists" ? You keep on using that word...I do not think it meansa what you think it means!
Jason
3chordcharlie
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Originally posted by: Steeplerot
Clinton, and how much more he got then our current president.
Seriously, Afgani war would still be a serious issue to me nonetheless.
Really? Were you opposed to the invasion of afghanistan entirely, or just concerned about the potential to bollocks it up?
I seem to recall saying something about 'America just elected the president of the end of the world' when Bush was finally officially the president. But I thought the initial response to 9/11 was alright, until about a month in when Bush started talking about Iraq.
Originally posted by: catnap1972
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Oh I'm sure we'd find SOMETHING to bitch about
Sure, you righties would be bitching how Clinton's penis is destroying the country.
(oh wait...you're still doing that anyway)
Hey, don't lump me in there, buddy. I said all along that the wacko Republicans were stupid for going after Clinton about poking Monica. The ONLY person who had a right to nail his cheating ass at that point was his WIFE.
After he lied on the stand, though, the Democrats were EQUALLY wrong to want to give him a pass on it. Granted it was none of the R's business who Clinton poked, but that doesn't mean he should be allowed to get away with lying where the rest of us would have been fined or jailed.
Jason
No, it wasn't the sanctions AT ALL. If their government were behaving like civilized people instead of the SAVAGES that they are (were, now!) there wouldn't have been any sanctions to begin with.
Jason
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Sanctions were optional. The way it was handled was totally determined by the West. We knew precisely what was happening. We approved. When a person creates a scenario in which they learn it hurts another and continues along with it, then it's their fault.
If you knowingly drop a black person off at a KKK rally and something bad happens you may say "Look, it's the Clan's fault. I didn't touch him". I don't buy it. What happened was perfectly predictable, and if you compound it with the fact that you had the means to change things once it started your guilt increases.
The UN security council (Remember the US is a leader there) was not stupid. They knew exactly what was going on. Fact is that Saddam could build his palaces and starve his people, and as long as he did not substantially re-arm, we were quite content to let him do so, just like we were glad to foist the Shah on Iran or Pinochet in South America. France, China, Russia all knew it as well. They don't get a pass, but I am not responsible for them. I didn't have an opportunity to vote in one of their elections. Our administrations (note plural) ARE accoutable to us.
We decided that starving was ok. We decided that going to war with them was OK.
Well if it could have been handled more ineptly I can't see how.
3chordcharlie
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hahaha - blinders on full!
Maybe instead of a presidential election, you should just ask all the state governors which candidate they like better, and 'elect' that way.
Your logic fails spectacularly when one observes the fact that Saddam was murdering Iraqis LONG BEFORE we imposed a single sanction. By the way you "reason" (if you can call it that) we ought to just sit on our hands and never do ANYTHING about ANY scenario because someone might get hurt.
Guess what, though? THAT'S LIFE. Bad things happen, good people suffer, get used to it. The ones ultimately responsible for this are TYRANTS like Saddam Hussein, Hitler, Stalin and countless others, who place their mad quests for POWER and CONTROL over others above all else, above all REASON.
The world would be a FAR simpler, far HAPPIER place if people who desire power over others would just get some damn sense of SELFISHNESS and work on THEIR OWN lives and if people like YOU would stop apologizing for these monsters and trying to put blame everywhere but where it really belongs.
Jason
Maybe, maybe not, I don't know. I know it would have been PLENTY for me, and I know a LOT of people who feel the same way. Of course, they pretty much all also feel that the RIGHT time to oust Saddam was in 1991, when we had close to a million soldiers on the ground and a buttload of Iraqi's just itching to put that bastard out.
Jason
GOD, but you aren't kidding. They're reminding me of Kenneth Star and his little band of witchhunters and all their pissy followers. Just goes to show you that a Democrat and a Republican are the same animal with a different hat.
Jason
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No disrespect meant Jason, but that seems to be the gist of the majority of your posts...your opinion. A sovereign nation always has the right to dethrown a dictator, the Iraqis' suffering was reasoin enough to take this country to war, etc. You may want to put a "IMO" in front of all your posts. Just a suggestion.
You just go ahead and believe that and hang out in your own little world then
I won't argue that the administration HASN'T botched the deal spectacularly, because they certainly *have*. However, to go off and assume that it was "all lies", which so far no one has shown (ineptitude certainly, but lies? Good luck proving that one!) is dishonest and irresponsible. There's no question that Bush is a complete moron, and the only reason he's still president is that SOMEHOW the Democrats managed to pick an even *bigger* moron to be their front running guy.In either case, the fact still stands: Those responsible for the suffering of the Iraqi people are those who were in charge of that country, PERIOD. What we're doing now is trying to clean up the mess, and anyone who expects a mess of this size to be cleaned up overnight is being unrealistic and plainly immature about the issue.
Jason
Originally posted by: Gaard
No disrespect meant Jason, but that seems to be the gist of the majority of your posts...your opinion. A sovereign nation always has the right to dethrown a dictator, the Iraqis' suffering was reasoin enough to take this country to war, etc. You may want to put a "IMO" in front of all your posts. Just a suggestion.
Actually the gist of *everyone's* posts in this forum or any other is "their opinion." Without trying to be rude, DUH!
There isn't a person on this forum who's ever managed to conclusively PROVE anything to the satisfaction of everyone (or even anyone, I'd wager) for more than about 30 seconds. It's very easier for all of us, you and me included, to sit here and be the Armchair commander of the world, but the fact of the matter is that a LOT more goes on and a LOT more has to be weighed and considered that any of us really understands or realizes.Unlike many here, I can't manage to summon the ARROGANCE to assume I know better than the entirety of ANY administration. The fact of the matter is, they just have more info and more resources and more expertise than I do, 100% of the time. That goes for everyone here as well, and we might all do well to consider that from time to time.
Jason
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Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
You just go ahead and believe that and hang out in your own little world then
In either case, the fact still stands: Those responsible for the suffering of the Iraqi people are those who were in charge of that country, PERIOD. What we're doing now is trying to clean up the mess, and anyone who expects a mess of this size to be cleaned up overnight is being unrealistic and plainly immature about the issue.
Jason
Son, I have seen more of the real world than you can begin to imagine, and I am not about to go into it on some two bit politic forum. Suffice it to say I have been close enough to death to know how it stinks, and I caused some of it. I know how the world works, at a really awful level sometimes. I also know enough that when someone knows their act is starving another then are complicit in that. Bad things happen to good people? Damn, I hope you never have the chance to find out how much that's true. I would have been for more reasoned and principled action. The sanctions were the result of political pressure.
Let me let you in on a little not so secret. When Rumsfeld shook Saddamn hand, it was already covered in blood. He knew it. He didn't care. Know what? I understand it. I don't agree, but I understand.
There is a SF book series call the Wheel of Time. Heard of it? There is a warrior race called the Aiel. One of their concepts is do what you need and take the consequences afterwords. Completely foreign to this administration and many of it's followers.
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