What would it take for you to believe in God?

[totalcommand]

Originally posted by: FeuerFrei
Just some comments after reading a little of this thread ... can't really answer the title question.
I'm not really prepared to be drawn into a huge debate ATM, but it's hard to sit back and not say anything.


The fact that God exists is an inconvenient truth for many people. They don't like being accountable for their actions. This is why they go through such contortions to avoid the fact. They really don't WANT find out they are wrong.

Unsaved people cannot understand the spiritual truths of the Bible. The Bible states this. You have to believe before you can understand. Spiritually dead people cannot discern spiritual things. I cannot emphasize it enough. No wonder you people have trouble with it.

FYI, Christians are encouraged to critically study the Word of God to see whether what it says is true. Christians don't function with their brains off. They are constantly looking for evidence that what they believe is true. They see God work in people's lives. They observe that both science and archaeology corroborate the Bible. So believing comes naturally.

F u. I am very spiritual, but I don't believe in the Bible.

And, if you were truly spiritual, you wouldn't need science and archaeology to corroborate your Bible. All I need is my faith. I don't need proof of God. I don't need science of God. And I certainly don't need to preach my faith to others to have faith myself.

 

[Motek]

Nothing at all.
It is obvious he exists or however else did we get here?

 

[RapidSnail]

Originally posted by: busmaster11

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: FeuerFrei
Just some comments after reading a little of this thread ... can't really answer the title question.
I'm not really prepared to be drawn into a huge debate ATM, but it's hard to sit back and not say anything.


The fact that God exists is an inconvenient truth for many people. They don't like being accountable for their actions. This is why they go through such contortions to avoid the fact. They really don't WANT find out they are wrong.

Unsaved people cannot understand the spiritual truths of the Bible. The Bible states this. You have to believe before you can understand. Spiritually dead people cannot discern spiritual things. I cannot emphasize it enough. No wonder you people have trouble with it.

FYI, Christians are encouraged to critically study the Word of God to see whether what it says is true. Christians don't function with their brains off. They are constantly looking for evidence that what they believe is true. They see God work in people's lives. They observe that both science and archaeology corroborate the Bible. So believing comes naturally.

:laugh: @ the "my religion is superior to yours" argument.
That could just as easily be reworded to come off from an islamic viewpoint, and then you'd probably deride it as terroristic.

I could not agree more with what FeuerFrei said, but then, I also agree with what nakedfrog said. Christianity, as with all other religions, can be a copout. Reason and logic, at least from a believer to a nonbeliever, will NEVER make sense.

Faith is intangible and God has not made Himself available for scientific proof. If you shrug this off and don't care, it means that you are hardened to Him, unregenerate or even reprobate.
If anyone leaves some room in their hearts to consider this, or if there is a lingering feeling in their heart that this world does not satisfy them, they should ask that God reveal to them their sinful nature and need for Him in their lives. And if they are sincere, He will meet them where they are.

I do understand that most people here are hardened in our stances toward religion. But you cannot prove God. He has not left that option open to us. For non-believers, you can call it a copout. But believers will stand behind this copout. Any attacks on this copout will prove fruitless, because our hope is based upon faith in God. For non-believers, your faith is in the world - science, medicine, hollywood, money, whatever.

:thumbsup:

Hebrews 11:1

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Hebrews 11:3

Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

 

[3NF]

Originally posted by: sao123
I personally hope that one of these expeditions to the mountains find Noah's Ark or the Ark of the covenant or any of several other historical artifacts just to shut all the nay sayers about the bible not being a reliable historical source.

I doubt it will ever be found. Noah's Ark was actually a spaceship, and it contained the DNA of each pair (male/female) species. I find it much easier to believe that, then some boat that actually contained an actual male/female pair of each species!

 

[IronWing]

Have we resolved this question yet?

 

[ghostrider78]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Alone

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Alone
Nothing short of Him coming down and saying "hey" and filling my pockets with gold.

So if He filled your pockets with feces, you'd still not believe?

I'd believe in the Devil, that's for sure.

So, you think it is possible that you could believe in a devil but not a God?

 

[ghostrider78]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Alone

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Alone
Nothing short of Him coming down and saying "hey" and filling my pockets with gold.

So if He filled your pockets with feces, you'd still not believe?

I'd believe in the Devil, that's for sure.

So, you think it is possible that you could believe in a devil but not a God?

What if god and the devil are one in the same?

 

[3NF]

Free download. It will answer all your questions.

http://www.intelligentdesignbook.com/

 

[videogames101]

Quite literally, a big dude coming down from "heaven" and granting me immotality, riches, etc...

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: ghostrider78

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Alone

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Alone
Nothing short of Him coming down and saying "hey" and filling my pockets with gold.

So if He filled your pockets with feces, you'd still not believe?

I'd believe in the Devil, that's for sure.

So, you think it is possible that you could believe in a devil but not a God?

What if god and the devil are one in the same?

I dunno, doesn't sound very logical.

But seriously, when you consider the parallels of the universe and mankind, there is certainly such a thing as Good as well as Evil. There is the truth, and there are lies. There is Love, and there is Hate. Seems logical that if there is a Satan, there is a God, and vice versa.

 

[dnuggett]

Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
I'd just like to know why those who believe in god give a crap what the rest of us think...

I don't get it either. I could care less what you, they or whoever think. I did care for a short time, but grew tired of all the idiocy.

 

[VIAN]

Originally posted by: bamacre
Wait, more specifically, what is the least possible thing that would cause you to believe in God?

From stories like this...

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/...2miracleteen,0,3791166.story

... to much more complex stories like this....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_lady_of_fatima

... be creative, and think hard, what would be the most simple act or occurance that would result in your new belief in God?

Neither of those stories qualifies as proof that God did anything.

People usually fear what they don't understand, unless it's a positive thing - then it's god's work.

 

[w00t]

Faith

 

[88NovaTwincam]

A version of windows created with the best interests of Humankind in mind!

I believe that there is no separation in all of space/time and by merely uttering a word objected to represent the "unrepresentable" creates a layer of duality hiding the infinite "one-ness"

 

[oldman420]

if I saw god that would do it

 

[RapidSnail]

Originally posted by: Garth

Originally posted by: RapidSnail

Originally posted by: Garth
Sorry for interjecting, but you've falsely characterized atheism. It isn't a belief in something that cannot be proven. Rather, it is a lack of belief in something which is inadequately evidenced.

To be sure, there are many atheists that irrationally believe things that in principle cannot be confirmed, but these are a subset of atheists, not all of them.

But atheism is much more than not believing in God; it is a belief that there is no God: something that cannot be proven.

No.

(Likewise, I could say that Christianity is not believing that there isn't a God, instead of the belief that there is one.)

You would be just as wrong.

You see, you cannot disprove God, therefore you must have faith that he doesn't exist. Isn't that the very reason why many of you throw around "Pastafarianism" and the "FSM"?

No.

Garth, the fact is you can neither prove God's existence, nor can you disprove his existence. Unless you can show empirically and conclusively that God is dead, you must accept by faith that which you do not know. Furthermore, you are forced to chose a belief on the issue if for no other reason than the very supposition of the unknown. Similarly, I must chose whether I believe in the "FSM" or not. I simply cannot say that I do not have a belief in him, regardless of how silly and absurd the proposition appears to me, except under the circumstances that he is proven to be nothing more than a figment of the imagination. When that happens, I would be safe to say that I have no belief in him.

In a nutshell, until science can show that there is no God, you must accept by faith that he does not exist. If that ever happens, you will be able to say, in the true sense of the meaning, that you have no belief in God. In other words, you cannot not have a belief in something, whether you believe it to be veritable or not, until it is proven to be entirely untrue. Thus is my understanding.

And Garth, there is no legitimate discussion to be had if you wish to reply with one-word, presumptuous pseudo-rebuttals.

 

[BurnItDwn]

Originally posted by: Vic
There is nothing scientific, fact-based, or logical about believing in something that can never be proven, such as atheism. Atheism is akin to the people who, before Chuck Yeager, were certain that humans could never travel faster than the speed of sound. There were no experiments, no facts, no previous experiences that it could not be done. They simply possessed a negative belief in prejudice. Such is atheism. And yet they hold up science as though science validates them when it does nothing of the sort. Except that, unlike the sound barrier, we will NEVER be able to prove atheism (or theism for that matter) from a scientific basis.

So like I said, who's the bigger nutcase?

I shall put in my two bits (ok, given the length of my post, perhaps it is three bits)

We will never be able to prove or disprove the existence of the flying spaghetti monster. Not being able to disprove something is a poor reason not to believe in something.

God is a man made phenomenon. I choose not to believe in any sort of "higher" existence because there is no proof or evidence of it. Also, lots of the things that people say "god" can do seem to be counter to the principles of physics, and thus, in my eyes at least, the gods that many people believe are simply impossibilities. (examples: Impregnating a virgin, creating a planet in 7 days, designing and creating living organisms, fitting two of each species on a single ship, and so much more) I do agree however, that I can not be certain that no "godlike" entity exists at all, as we have not explored and mapped out every atom in the universe .... I also agree that we (as in humanity) still have a LOT to learn about how things work. So, I can not say "there is no god" without putting some faith into it. However, the faith required to not believe in something such as a god is no greater than the faith required not to believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Zeus, Thor, ghosts, Hades, Valhalla, Unicorns, Leprechauns, Trolls, any other mythical beings/places.

People who believe in jesus or vishnu or mohammed all put a LOT of faith into something. I do not respect their beliefs (I think what they believe is very stupid and therefore, I can not respect it.), however, I try the best I can to respect the people. I don't think people who devote their lives to a religion or religious cause are "nutcases." I think they just misguided, and honestly, everyone is misguided in some way, shape, or form ... so as long as they leave me alone and don't try to screw up my life or my way of life, then I too will leave them alone. Thus, these three cliche's will get mentions. "Live and let live", "Respect the person, not their beliefs", and "Agree to disagree." Anybody who can't follow those three cliche's would be an ideal "nutcase" candidate.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: BurnItDwn

Originally posted by: Vic
There is nothing scientific, fact-based, or logical about believing in something that can never be proven, such as atheism. Atheism is akin to the people who, before Chuck Yeager, were certain that humans could never travel faster than the speed of sound. There were no experiments, no facts, no previous experiences that it could not be done. They simply possessed a negative belief in prejudice. Such is atheism. And yet they hold up science as though science validates them when it does nothing of the sort. Except that, unlike the sound barrier, we will NEVER be able to prove atheism (or theism for that matter) from a scientific basis.

So like I said, who's the bigger nutcase?

I shall put in my two bits (ok, given the length of my post, perhaps it is three bits)

We will never be able to prove or disprove the existence of the flying spaghetti monster. Not being able to disprove something is a poor reason not to believe in something.

God is a man made phenomenon. I choose not to believe in any sort of "higher" existence because there is no proof or evidence of it. Also, lots of the things that people say "god" can do seem to be counter to the principles of physics, and thus, in my eyes at least, the gods that many people believe are simply impossibilities. (examples: Impregnating a virgin, creating a planet in 7 days, designing and creating living organisms, fitting two of each species on a single ship, and so much more) I do agree however, that I can not be certain that no "godlike" entity exists at all, as we have not explored and mapped out every atom in the universe .... I also agree that we (as in humanity) still have a LOT to learn about how things work. So, I can not say "there is no god" without putting some faith into it. However, the faith required to not believe in something such as a god is no greater than the faith required not to believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Zeus, Thor, ghosts, Hades, Valhalla, Unicorns, Leprechauns, Trolls, any other mythical beings/places.

People who believe in jesus or vishnu or mohammed all put a LOT of faith into something. I do not respect their beliefs (I think what they believe is very stupid and therefore, I can not respect it.), however, I try the best I can to respect the people. I don't think people who devote their lives to a religion or religious cause are "nutcases." I think they just misguided, and honestly, everyone is misguided in some way, shape, or form ... so as long as they leave me alone and don't try to screw up my life or my way of life, then I too will leave them alone. Thus, these three cliche's will get mentions. "Live and let live", "Respect the person, not their beliefs", and "Agree to disagree." Anybody who can't follow those three cliche's would be an ideal "nutcase" candidate.

If a "godlike" being exists, then that "godlike" being would be GOD. Of course, not necessarily the Christian God, but that (like your use of FSM, etc.) is a just a straw man, i.e. "let's keep the discussion to something we can ridicule." For myself, I'm more concerned about REALITY and what that holds rather than condemning the beliefs of ancient texts and traditions and ruling out of all possibilities in reality based solely upon a "strict" interpretation of same. Faith to believe or disbelieve according to those just make no sense to me. I, myself, have neither the faith to belief nor the faith to disbelieve.

As to people being misguided, that implies some type of intent. That someone is intentionally misguiding them. If that's what you really believe, I suggest you seek treatment for your paranoia. In the real world, the blind lead the blind.
However, I hope they (I'm not Christian) do leave you alone.

 

[Coldkilla]

Originally posted by: Alone

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: Alone
Nothing short of Him coming down and saying "hey" and filling my pockets with gold.

So if He filled your pockets with feces, you'd still not believe?

I'd believe in the Devil, that's for sure.

Kudo's

 

[BurnItDwn]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: BurnItDwn

Originally posted by: Vic
There is nothing scientific, fact-based, or logical about believing in something that can never be proven, such as atheism. Atheism is akin to the people who, before Chuck Yeager, were certain that humans could never travel faster than the speed of sound. There were no experiments, no facts, no previous experiences that it could not be done. They simply possessed a negative belief in prejudice. Such is atheism. And yet they hold up science as though science validates them when it does nothing of the sort. Except that, unlike the sound barrier, we will NEVER be able to prove atheism (or theism for that matter) from a scientific basis.

So like I said, who's the bigger nutcase?

I shall put in my two bits (ok, given the length of my post, perhaps it is three bits)

We will never be able to prove or disprove the existence of the flying spaghetti monster. Not being able to disprove something is a poor reason not to believe in something.

God is a man made phenomenon. I choose not to believe in any sort of "higher" existence because there is no proof or evidence of it. Also, lots of the things that people say "god" can do seem to be counter to the principles of physics, and thus, in my eyes at least, the gods that many people believe are simply impossibilities. (examples: Impregnating a virgin, creating a planet in 7 days, designing and creating living organisms, fitting two of each species on a single ship, and so much more) I do agree however, that I can not be certain that no "godlike" entity exists at all, as we have not explored and mapped out every atom in the universe .... I also agree that we (as in humanity) still have a LOT to learn about how things work. So, I can not say "there is no god" without putting some faith into it. However, the faith required to not believe in something such as a god is no greater than the faith required not to believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Zeus, Thor, ghosts, Hades, Valhalla, Unicorns, Leprechauns, Trolls, any other mythical beings/places.

People who believe in jesus or vishnu or mohammed all put a LOT of faith into something. I do not respect their beliefs (I think what they believe is very stupid and therefore, I can not respect it.), however, I try the best I can to respect the people. I don't think people who devote their lives to a religion or religious cause are "nutcases." I think they just misguided, and honestly, everyone is misguided in some way, shape, or form ... so as long as they leave me alone and don't try to screw up my life or my way of life, then I too will leave them alone. Thus, these three cliche's will get mentions. "Live and let live", "Respect the person, not their beliefs", and "Agree to disagree." Anybody who can't follow those three cliche's would be an ideal "nutcase" candidate.

If a "godlike" being exists, then that "godlike" being would be GOD. Of course, not necessarily the Christian God, but that (like your use of FSM, etc.) is a just a straw man, i.e. "let's keep the discussion to something we can ridicule." For myself, I'm more concerned about REALITY and what that holds rather than condemning the beliefs of ancient texts and traditions and ruling out of all possibilities in reality based solely upon a "strict" interpretation of same. Faith to believe or disbelieve according to those just make no sense to me. I, myself, have neither the faith to belief nor the faith to disbelieve.

As to people being misguided, that implies some type of intent. That someone is intentionally misguiding them. If that's what you really believe, I suggest you seek treatment for your paranoia. In the real world, the blind lead the blind.
However, I hope they (I'm not Christian) do leave you alone.

My use of FSM was not for the sake of ridicule. It was for the sake of comparison. I fail to see any difference in the reality between "god" and "FSM."

As far as my use of the word misguided. I didn't intend to imply intend, or that somebody is intentionally leading them in the wrong way. I meant that their desires/fantasies about an afterlife or the meaning of life may be misleading them and making the decisions for them, rather then reason. One of those "if you want to believe hard enough you will believe scenarios." To me, that is the "feeling" side of the brain misleading the "thought" side of the brain.

Maybe mislead is just the wrong word. Also, I have many good friends and family members that are Christians, I like them, they are good people, they don't try to push me into believing what they believe on, and I try very hard not to ridicule or mock them based upon what they believe. They know my (dis)beliefs, and they don't necessarily respect them, but they do respect me as a person and as a family member or friend. I don't want to never associate with Christians, I just want Christians to not try to "set the rules" for the way anybody else lives.

Ahh well, It would take a LOT, probably more than most atheists, to make me "believe." I know I can be stubborn at times (all the time.)

 

[smopoim86]

I feel that it's not such a big deal. I really feel the same as one of my teachers at school, "As long as you die in peace (not scared to death) then it's not a big deal"

Anyway, i go to church nearly every time the doors open and the more i listen the crazier the stuff sounds. I go mainly because i don't want my parent to go absolutely nutz thinking that their son is doomed to hell.

 

[Madwand1]

Originally posted by: BurnItDwn
We will never be able to prove or disprove the existence of the flying spaghetti monster. Not being able to disprove something is a poor reason not to believe in something.

I guess you meant "Not being able to disprove something is a poor reason to believe in something."

I assume that you also mean that the FSM can't be proven because it doesn't exist. However, let's look at the FSM and God equivalence further. You do not assert that we cannot prove that God exists because he doesn't exist. You choose not to believe in God, which I assert is fine, yet you do not hold the same reason for lack of provability of God, because you state that it's possible that God or at least a god-like being may exist.

If you still hold that we cannot prove the existence of God, though God may exist, I'd applaud that statement -- it's IMO far more logical and profound than much else that appears here, including the nonsense about what if you had proof of non-existence of God.

I use this statement to illustrate that you're right -- that this stuff is about belief, not about proof. Most people would be immediately converted if they saw a burning bush, a vision of an angel, weeping statue, etc., or perhaps something a bit more subtle as I'd said -- a look in the eyes of a sincerest pursuer, for example. But logically, even when seen or felt, perhaps imagined, none of these establish the existence of God as God. At any point, there's some faith. That faith, I assert, is cheap when it's based on a burning bush or something like that. (I also imagine that a FSM is literally possible in the realm of miraculous phenomena if we allow the possibility of burning bushes, loaves and fishes aplenty, etc., in miraculous phenomena.)

I believe that God "doesn't want" cheap belief, which is why we don't see burning bushes on our way to the shopping mall. Well, at least I don't, as much as I might like to.

Originally posted by: BurnItDwn
People who believe in jesus or vishnu or mohammed all put a LOT of faith into something. I do not respect their beliefs (I think what they believe is very stupid and therefore, I can not respect it.), however, I try the best I can to respect the people.

I haven't earned your respect, because you know nothing about me, but I'm not stupid, at least as far as I can tell. I "believe" in Jesus, Mohammed, Vishnu, among others. How? Why? And why is that not stupid? Well, I could go on and on and on, and just did, but I'm deleting all that. I'm sure you're not really interested, and I fully understand that at some point there's a leap of faith, and I don't hold it necessary to have faith.

I do believe however, that actual knowledge can be gained, and this is not a matter of degree, but qualitative difference, and the question of "what would you do if you had personal proof of existence" is a much more meaningful and potentially profound question than the reverse. "Seek and you shall find" is a truism, but still true, and what we find as temporarily accepted beliefs might still take us to greater truths.

I respect those who hold to their rational disbelief as their truth, more so that I do those who would try to force their religious beliefs upon others, but to be honest, I require an admission of lack of proof and finality on either side before I can respect the intellect.

 

[3NF]

Originally posted by: 3NF
Free download. It will answer all your questions.

http://www.intelligentdesignbook.com/

We were genetically engineered by aliens. By the end of this century, probably sooner, we'll understand how to genetically engineer and design life ourselves.

There is no God!

 

[imported_inspire]

Originally posted by: GagHalfrunt

Originally posted by: Alone
Nothing short of Him coming down and saying "hey" and filling my pockets with gold.

I don't even need the gold. I want the son of a bitch to show up and explain the killing, raping, pedophilia, torture and wars that his followers claim were done for him, in his name and with his approval,

How do you know he approved; I mean, if you're not sure he exists?

 

[imported_inspire]

Originally posted by: shadow9d9

Originally posted by: Accipiter22
I already do believe in God. Faith is believing something that you haven't seen with your own eyes, nor anyone else. If God came down tomorrow and said 'hi' to me, well then it wouldn't be faith anymore, because I'd KNOW he existed. I kind of like having it as Faith.

I wouldn't call that faith.. i'd call that foolishness.

While we're being rude to one another, Webster disagrees.