<< It's too bad that some people care, but only they only care so far and beyond that, they can get defensive. You can't do much to convince them directly, so it's best not to make too big a deal about it. >>
Defref
I care enough to live my life in a way that shows I am making an effort to make a difference. I am not stupid. I know what the arguments are, and I know what the weaknesses of the treaty are. I still feel that something is better than nothing at this point. Many people agree with me, and many people don't. So what? I am not threatened by this. Why are YOU?
Don't insult my intelligence by assuming I have made my opinion without even thinking. I don't understand why you feel the need to insult me, no matter how cleverly you think you are doing it.
Now, if you guys know about a better plan/organization/foundation that is truly working to clean up the environment, you can give me a link. I'll read it and consider it, just like I do everything else. Just don't try to draw me into one of your useless arguments because you don't agree with me on an issue I feel strongly about and then try to take the higher moral ground. I was never in this thread to argue... what's wrong with that? If you want me to see that there is a better way to improve the environment, then show me with some links. Don't challenge me to some kind of political knowlege duel or insult me because I don't want to play your games. Have some CLASS.
The problem with you guys is that your egos are SO involved in all this you can't see something so very simple:
OUR OPINIONS DON'T MATTER!
Thanks, Isla for confirming my topic point.
<< OUR OPINIONS DON'T MATTER. >>
These political posts have dominated AT OT recently and they are really irritating since there is even less point or conclusion than usual. Egos are involved but I can't see why. Neither candidate is worth getting heated up for. It's like saying "my candidate" means anything (it doesn't).
Anyway, this whole situation is ridiculous. We have learned our votes really don't (always) count, politicians will be politicians (and lawyers, lawyers), and our election system WON'T get fixed.
<< OUR OPINIONS DON'T MATTER. >>
These political posts have dominated AT OT recently and they are really irritating since there is even less point or conclusion than usual. Egos are involved but I can't see why. Neither candidate is worth getting heated up for. It's like saying "my candidate" means anything (it doesn't).
Anyway, this whole situation is ridiculous. We have learned our votes really don't (always) count, politicians will be politicians (and lawyers, lawyers), and our election system WON'T get fixed.
Yay, appopin!
Someone understands.
I had NO INTENTION of getting involved... I saw it was *your* thread so I thought it was *safe* to give my opinion (which I guess isn't popular, oops!) and just have it be left at that... silly me!
Maybe our opinions are different, but they are equally insignificant. Why delude ourselves into thinking they are anything more?
Someone understands.
I had NO INTENTION of getting involved... I saw it was *your* thread so I thought it was *safe* to give my opinion (which I guess isn't popular, oops!) and just have it be left at that... silly me!
Maybe our opinions are different, but they are equally insignificant. Why delude ourselves into thinking they are anything more?
If Gore does win, I'll throw a party.
As much as I don't trust Gore, I want Bush even less. Gore is a bore, but all you have to do is listen to Bush to know the guy is a few synapses short of a complete frontal lobe.
As much as I don't trust Gore, I want Bush even less. Gore is a bore, but all you have to do is listen to Bush to know the guy is a few synapses short of a complete frontal lobe.
Apopin,
A little calmer now
<< If Gore wins, at least half of the millitary will probably quit. >>
You really think so? Sounds like a HUGE exaggeration to me.
Maybe a little exaggeration, but not huge. If you read any newsletters or listservs about the military, there have been and continue to be serious problems with morale. Remember when Clinton took office? There were lifers in the military that retired and spoke out about serving under someone as morally corrupt as Clinton, and the Clinton White House's undisguised contempt toward people in uniform that worked there didn't go over well either. It's unprecedented to have members of the military openly making statements like that about the Commander-in-Chief because that's pretty much the end of a military career. Air Force pilots are leaving in droves to work for airlines, potential lifers are getting out - which means you have a military controlled by political hacks. Like Gen. Clark, the guy who came out everyday with videos of how well we bombed Milosevic. Only problem was when the bombing was over, they couldn't verify the damage, because they'd been bombing a fair number of decoy targets. Plus stuff like Clinton bombing an aspirin factory in Sudan to divert attention from his Lewinsky problems. Or refueling a ship in a known terrorist-friendly area to admittedly make a political statement. Or the State Dept. saying the deaths of 17 sailors on the USS Cole doesn't compare to the deaths of 100's of Palestinians. I'd say it was pretty lucky for Clinton that nugget didn't get out until the day after he did his pouty-grief act at the memorial service for those sailors in Norfolk. Or the watering down of standards for receiving medals. And now, genuine disenfranchisement specifically aimed at servicemen by Democrats in Florida which has definitely struck a nerve. It's not front page news, but there are a lot of people in the military that are not happy to be there, and it's because of the environment fostered by Clinton-Gore. The people that are the backbone of the military don't serve just for the money - there are altruistic reasons as well. And like any other job, if you're making a sacrifice and not only does your boss not give a damn but he doesn't hide his contempt for you, then why should you stick around?
Where would you go?
A small, quiet seaside town in Italy sounds rather nice
A little calmer now
<< If Gore wins, at least half of the millitary will probably quit. >>
You really think so? Sounds like a HUGE exaggeration to me.
Maybe a little exaggeration, but not huge. If you read any newsletters or listservs about the military, there have been and continue to be serious problems with morale. Remember when Clinton took office? There were lifers in the military that retired and spoke out about serving under someone as morally corrupt as Clinton, and the Clinton White House's undisguised contempt toward people in uniform that worked there didn't go over well either. It's unprecedented to have members of the military openly making statements like that about the Commander-in-Chief because that's pretty much the end of a military career. Air Force pilots are leaving in droves to work for airlines, potential lifers are getting out - which means you have a military controlled by political hacks. Like Gen. Clark, the guy who came out everyday with videos of how well we bombed Milosevic. Only problem was when the bombing was over, they couldn't verify the damage, because they'd been bombing a fair number of decoy targets. Plus stuff like Clinton bombing an aspirin factory in Sudan to divert attention from his Lewinsky problems. Or refueling a ship in a known terrorist-friendly area to admittedly make a political statement. Or the State Dept. saying the deaths of 17 sailors on the USS Cole doesn't compare to the deaths of 100's of Palestinians. I'd say it was pretty lucky for Clinton that nugget didn't get out until the day after he did his pouty-grief act at the memorial service for those sailors in Norfolk. Or the watering down of standards for receiving medals. And now, genuine disenfranchisement specifically aimed at servicemen by Democrats in Florida which has definitely struck a nerve. It's not front page news, but there are a lot of people in the military that are not happy to be there, and it's because of the environment fostered by Clinton-Gore. The people that are the backbone of the military don't serve just for the money - there are altruistic reasons as well. And like any other job, if you're making a sacrifice and not only does your boss not give a damn but he doesn't hide his contempt for you, then why should you stick around?
Where would you go?
A small, quiet seaside town in Italy sounds rather nice
Isla: I'm sorry if I gave the impression I was speaking directly about you. I was afraid that etech might have been looking for a policy debate that you weren't interested in having. I certainly don't presume to challenge your feelings about this and don't care to get into a big scrap about this.
As far as I'm concerned, it's good to be concerned about the environment. I just think that a lot of "green" activists believe that the only way to save the earth is to do away with industry. etech was referring to the fact that the Kyoto deal hasn't been signed by India and China, so that while the US would have to close its factories, these other countrys would be able to pollute without penalty. If the whole world is affected by US factories, why do some countries get to not join? Shouldn't it be truly all for one?
As far as I'm concerned, it's good to be concerned about the environment. I just think that a lot of "green" activists believe that the only way to save the earth is to do away with industry. etech was referring to the fact that the Kyoto deal hasn't been signed by India and China, so that while the US would have to close its factories, these other countrys would be able to pollute without penalty. If the whole world is affected by US factories, why do some countries get to not join? Shouldn't it be truly all for one?
Well, you did say "at least half".
Don't forget also, whenever the economy is really doing well, the military tends to (train and) lose personel. It is very difficult for the military to compete with the private sector in regard to pay. It's not only a moral outrage issue you are making it to be.
Taken together, I still think even losing 10% of the military over the election is an exaggeration.
Italy is nice. Do you speak Italian?
Don't forget also, whenever the economy is really doing well, the military tends to (train and) lose personel. It is very difficult for the military to compete with the private sector in regard to pay. It's not only a moral outrage issue you are making it to be.
Taken together, I still think even losing 10% of the military over the election is an exaggeration.
Italy is nice. Do you speak Italian?
Defref,
I agree, not to include China and India at this time seems unfair. It is my understanding that their economies can't take it, at least not right now.
It's not a perfect solution, not anywhere near perfect. Is it better than nothing? Maybe, maybe not. Do I want to sit around doing nothing? No.
Do I want to argue about it, since it is a moot point anyway? No!
BTW, I'm not a Green activist. I may have ennvironmental leanings, but I'm not an exteme *anything*. I'm too old and jaded to be like that, jeeze! Once you are over 30, it's all over. Etech should know that about me, it's in his sig! I'm a stay-at-home cookie-baking mini-van driving PTA mom in a very Republican part of town. You would be hard pressed to describe me as anything other than conservative, considering my lifestyle.
It's about balance.
Peace~
I agree, not to include China and India at this time seems unfair. It is my understanding that their economies can't take it, at least not right now.
It's not a perfect solution, not anywhere near perfect. Is it better than nothing? Maybe, maybe not. Do I want to sit around doing nothing? No.
Do I want to argue about it, since it is a moot point anyway? No!
BTW, I'm not a Green activist. I may have ennvironmental leanings, but I'm not an exteme *anything*. I'm too old and jaded to be like that, jeeze! Once you are over 30, it's all over. Etech should know that about me, it's in his sig! I'm a stay-at-home cookie-baking mini-van driving PTA mom in a very Republican part of town. You would be hard pressed to describe me as anything other than conservative, considering my lifestyle.
It's about balance.
Peace~
Isla, it does matter. You have feelings, vision, instinct, sensitivity, core values, children and love of life. You are not alone and not alone in what you believe. The things that are important to you are important. You're powerful, like a goddess. Strike down these young egomaniacs with kindness and they may get up as men.
If Gore wins I will hold out slightly more hope that some real issues like campaign finance reform and the environment might get a glance.
Some woman, don't know her name, spent two years living in a 1000 year old redwood until the lumber co. agreed to protect it. It's been almost completely sawed through. That should teach somebody something, huh.
Oh my beloved, wherever I look it appears to be thou.
For every act of hate there is a sea of sorrow.
If Gore wins I will hold out slightly more hope that some real issues like campaign finance reform and the environment might get a glance.
Some woman, don't know her name, spent two years living in a 1000 year old redwood until the lumber co. agreed to protect it. It's been almost completely sawed through. That should teach somebody something, huh.
Oh my beloved, wherever I look it appears to be thou.
For every act of hate there is a sea of sorrow.
Isla:
Our opinions may not matter but our votes do. (But I still think what you think matters. )
Although we are all trashing the many political threads, we've informed each other and essentially told each other: "Here's an opinion that has some merit-listen!" As a consequence, a few, admittedly very few, people come to the realization that the world is not quite so simple as the shibboleths they live by.
Capn:
You haven't a clue what's happened in Seminole County. The Supervisor of Elections may end up being prosecuted for voting fraud. The situation is very serious. Remember, the case has been transferred to Leon County because the SOS is a party. It wasn't dismissed by the local judge when the Republicans asked her to dismiss it. The Republicans are very worried about the case because well over 9000 votes were cast for Bush in Seminole County. This is just an example of the way the Republicans have tried to steal Florida and probably the rest of the nation.
Our opinions may not matter but our votes do. (But I still think what you think matters.
)Although we are all trashing the many political threads, we've informed each other and essentially told each other: "Here's an opinion that has some merit-listen!" As a consequence, a few, admittedly very few, people come to the realization that the world is not quite so simple as the shibboleths they live by.
Capn:
You haven't a clue what's happened in Seminole County. The Supervisor of Elections may end up being prosecuted for voting fraud. The situation is very serious. Remember, the case has been transferred to Leon County because the SOS is a party. It wasn't dismissed by the local judge when the Republicans asked her to dismiss it. The Republicans are very worried about the case because well over 9000 votes were cast for Bush in Seminole County. This is just an example of the way the Republicans have tried to steal Florida and probably the rest of the nation.
Chess <<It wasn't dismissed by the local judge when the Republicans asked her to dismiss it.>>
...uh yeah, and did anyone actually expect a pinko democrat judge who contributed to the Gore campaign to properly dismiss the case? Heck no, she wasn't about to do the correct legal thing, considering it would go against her political leanings.
<<what would you do if Gore wins?>>
Nothing different than if Bush wins, my life will go on whether that loser steals the election or not.
...uh yeah, and did anyone actually expect a pinko democrat judge who contributed to the Gore campaign to properly dismiss the case? Heck no, she wasn't about to do the correct legal thing, considering it would go against her political leanings.
<<what would you do if Gore wins?>>
Nothing different than if Bush wins, my life will go on whether that loser steals the election or not.
Tagej:
"pinko"
Oh, you mean the Communist Party official local Democratic Party Judge who didn't throw out the case on the whim of the Nazis?
Tsk, tsk.
Consistency thou art a jewel.
"pinko"
Oh, you mean the Communist Party official local Democratic Party Judge who didn't throw out the case on the whim of the Nazis?
Tsk, tsk.
Consistency thou art a jewel.
My point was that it's hardly surprising that a democratic judge didn't throw out the case, and it certainly doesn't say anything about the merits of the case. Judges are acting like politicians instead of judges.... all the way up to the FL supreme court -- but they'll get their wrist slapped by the real supreme court this weekend.
They might be political, but since their members are appointed for life, they don't have to worry about making career and making sure they stay in good favor with certain politicians, and having to win elections to stay at their job. They tend to take more of a long term perspective and don't usually get caught up in the 'political flavor of the day'.
Furthermore, the makeup of the supreme court is more balanced, with 3 conservatives, 3 liberals, and 3 "middle of the roaders". I think that's a nice balance, and that balance has shown itself in their decisions over the last few years -- nothing to extreme on either side, balance is good.
Besides, since EVERYONE is biased one way or the other, and the courts can't seem to keep their partisanship out of the way, things like elections should be decided the way the constitution set them out to be decided -- by the people, and if there was any doubts/conflicts, by those elected by the people, the legislature. Not the courts.
Furthermore, the makeup of the supreme court is more balanced, with 3 conservatives, 3 liberals, and 3 "middle of the roaders". I think that's a nice balance, and that balance has shown itself in their decisions over the last few years -- nothing to extreme on either side, balance is good.
Besides, since EVERYONE is biased one way or the other, and the courts can't seem to keep their partisanship out of the way, things like elections should be decided the way the constitution set them out to be decided -- by the people, and if there was any doubts/conflicts, by those elected by the people, the legislature. Not the courts.
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