what the hell is wrong with the army?

[RY62]

Originally posted by: Nebor
As a defender of the Iraq war, I felt it necessary to reconcile my feelings with my actions, and turned my Officer Candidate School packet into my recruiter on Friday (ps, it's really, really difficult to get high school transcripts when you're nearly 30.)

So I'm a 30-ish guy leaving a 6 figure job, nice house and cush life for the Army. And according to the wall of enlisted and OCS candidates at the local recruiting office, I'm not the only one. Lots of high quality people are still lining up to serve their country.

Let me be the first of, hopefully, many who will thank you for your service. I have the utmost respect for an individual who's willing to stand up for what they believe in.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Nebor
...

As a defender of the Iraq war, I felt it necessary to reconcile my feelings with my actions, and turned my Officer Candidate School packet into my recruiter on Friday (ps, it's really, really difficult to get high school transcripts when you're nearly 30.)

So I'm a 30-ish guy leaving a 6 figure job, nice house and cush life for the Army. And according to the wall of enlisted and OCS candidates at the local recruiting office, I'm not the only one. Lots of high quality people are still lining up to serve their country.

You post regularly about wanting to kill arbitrary amounts of people in the Middle East, you hardly seem like the kind of "high quality person" the military needs.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: RY62

Originally posted by: Nebor
As a defender of the Iraq war, I felt it necessary to reconcile my feelings with my actions, and turned my Officer Candidate School packet into my recruiter on Friday (ps, it's really, really difficult to get high school transcripts when you're nearly 30.)

So I'm a 30-ish guy leaving a 6 figure job, nice house and cush life for the Army. And according to the wall of enlisted and OCS candidates at the local recruiting office, I'm not the only one. Lots of high quality people are still lining up to serve their country.

Let me be the first of, hopefully, many who will thank you for your service. I have the utmost respect for an individual who's willing to stand up for what they believe in.

And I have the utmost respect for an individual who's willing to engage his brain first and find something worth believing in and THEN committing to it. Blind loyalty to people and ideas is far too common a trait to admire, I'll save my admiration for people who are smart about what they believe in.

 

[wetech]

Originally posted by: loki8481
recruitment standards blows my mind...

border-line retarded? check.
sex offender? check.
child abusers? check.
druggie? check.
terrorists? sure, why not.
gays? sorry, gotta draw the line somewhere.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/22/usa.iraq

god dammit, I'm going to have to vote for the bastard in November, aren't I?

I'd be interested to see what the actual charges were against these people. Is the article blowing this out of proportion, or are these actually serious charges. i.e. sex-offender: 18 year old convicted of statutory rape because his girlfriend is 17 or is it something more serious then that.

 

[RY62]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: RY62

Originally posted by: Nebor
As a defender of the Iraq war, I felt it necessary to reconcile my feelings with my actions, and turned my Officer Candidate School packet into my recruiter on Friday (ps, it's really, really difficult to get high school transcripts when you're nearly 30.)

So I'm a 30-ish guy leaving a 6 figure job, nice house and cush life for the Army. And according to the wall of enlisted and OCS candidates at the local recruiting office, I'm not the only one. Lots of high quality people are still lining up to serve their country.

Let me be the first of, hopefully, many who will thank you for your service. I have the utmost respect for an individual who's willing to stand up for what they believe in.

And I have the utmost respect for an individual who's willing to engage his brain first and find something worth believing in and THEN committing to it. Blind loyalty to people and ideas is far too common a trait to admire, I'll save my admiration for people who are smart about what they believe in.

It wasn't my intention to insult your belief. I can also respect the fact that others, like yourself, fight for what you believe in. There are many battlefields and many ways to battle.

It seems to me that Nebor has found something that, to him, is worth believing in and is then committing to it.

In this case, I personally believe we still have a job to do in Iraq. I still have hope that we can leave it a better place than we found it. I'm not sure how we'll do it. I just don't think we can do that with an immediate withdrawal.

 

[Butterbean]

"The army gave out 511 moral waivers to soldiers with felony convictions last year. Criminals got 249 army waivers in 2006, a sign that the demand for US forces in Iraq has forced a sharp increase in the number of criminals allowed on the battlefield."

Let's see..511 divided by 12 is around 42.6

The movie can be called "The Dirty 42 1/2 Dozen"

Not sure who gets Lee Marvins role but Vick can be the "Jim Brown killed while running at the end guy".

 

[daniel49]

seems as I recall growing up it was not a real uncommon thing for a young man to get in trouble with the law and be allowed a chance of escaping jail for service in the military.
The judge reasoning that what the individual often needed was some discipline in thier life.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: RY62

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: RY62

Originally posted by: Nebor
As a defender of the Iraq war, I felt it necessary to reconcile my feelings with my actions, and turned my Officer Candidate School packet into my recruiter on Friday (ps, it's really, really difficult to get high school transcripts when you're nearly 30.)

So I'm a 30-ish guy leaving a 6 figure job, nice house and cush life for the Army. And according to the wall of enlisted and OCS candidates at the local recruiting office, I'm not the only one. Lots of high quality people are still lining up to serve their country.

Let me be the first of, hopefully, many who will thank you for your service. I have the utmost respect for an individual who's willing to stand up for what they believe in.

And I have the utmost respect for an individual who's willing to engage his brain first and find something worth believing in and THEN committing to it. Blind loyalty to people and ideas is far too common a trait to admire, I'll save my admiration for people who are smart about what they believe in.

It wasn't my intention to insult your belief. I can also respect the fact that others, like yourself, fight for what you believe in. There are many battlefields and many ways to battle.

It seems to me that Nebor has found something that, to him, is worth believing in and is then committing to it.

In this case, I personally believe we still have a job to do in Iraq. I still have hope that we can leave it a better place than we found it. I'm not sure how we'll do it. I just don't think we can do that with an immediate withdrawal.

I see what you're saying, and I guess I wasn't talking about you or Nebor as much as I was talking about the pro-war position SOME people have taken. In some cases, it seems like the war is basically a football game, and we have to "win" because otherwise we won't get to go the global war on terrorism super bowl. Fighting for THAT idea isn't an admirable trait. I can certainly admire people who fight for an idea even if I don't agree with it, but I wonder how many people are really putting a lot of thought into WHAT they believe?

 

[fallout man]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

In some cases, it seems like the war is basically a football game, and we have to "win" because otherwise we won't get to go the global war on terrorism super bowl. Fighting for THAT idea isn't an admirable trait. I can certainly admire people who fight for an idea even if I don't agree with it, but I wonder how many people are really putting a lot of thought into WHAT they believe?

Gee whiz! You're really onto something there!

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: 1prophet
And when they come back the training can be put to good use playing "Grand Theft Auto" in real life.

That happened just a couple of miles from here...in what might be called one of our suburbs. Sad thing. People tried to blame it on "combat fatigue," but records showed that he had never actually seen combat...
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/01/...ne.shooting/index.html

My son was stationed at MCAS Tustin in the late 90's. He said that they had significant gang problems there, and that MCAS El Toro was almost run by the gangs there.
Gangs have been a problem in the military for a long time, no one has wanted to see it, or admit it when they do.

As other posters here have opined, the war has lost its popularity with the common man, so recruitment has dropped way off. Sure, there are still folks who are willing to enlist, but I'll be very surprised if McCain doesn't reinstate the draft if he wants to stay the course in Iraq. If he doesn't, he's not going to have very many soldiers or Marines left to serve. While Stop-Loss gives them the right to extend enlistments almost indefinitely, the troops will soon reach their breaking point, and massive numbers of fresh reinforcements are needed on a regular basis.
We as a nation couldn't have waged the war in Vietnam without the draft. Yes, many of us were enlistees, but without a steady stream of replacements, things could have gotten bleak quickly. IIRC, draftees made up about 25% of the total force in Vietnam...and represented about 30% of those KIA. (By contrast, in WWII, something like 65% of the troops were draftees)

 

[nageov3t]

man, how did my thread on gays in the military turn into a CF about Iraq? lol

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: RY62

Originally posted by: Nebor
As a defender of the Iraq war, I felt it necessary to reconcile my feelings with my actions, and turned my Officer Candidate School packet into my recruiter on Friday (ps, it's really, really difficult to get high school transcripts when you're nearly 30.)

So I'm a 30-ish guy leaving a 6 figure job, nice house and cush life for the Army. And according to the wall of enlisted and OCS candidates at the local recruiting office, I'm not the only one. Lots of high quality people are still lining up to serve their country.

Let me be the first of, hopefully, many who will thank you for your service. I have the utmost respect for an individual who's willing to stand up for what they believe in.

Like Bin Laden?

IMO, if Nebor is still, in 2008, of the opinion the Iraq war was a good idea, I'm glad he's going off. Maybe a disllusioned 18 year old can be saved from that debacle if he takes their place.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Come to damn think of it, has not PJ pointed out he would join the military except he has some physical defect that our army will not accept. And this lowering of standards may allow PJ to finally be accepted so he can fulfill his long frustrated life's ambition to be a member of our military.

Tell us the truth PJ, have you already rushed to your nearest army recruiter to see if you now qualify?

I would not join the Army

I tried to join the navy, but my scoliosis prevented me. I am way over the limit they allow.

Also, this was 10+ years ago. At 38 I am not joining anything, sorry.

Why not, I heard the age limit is 42 now? I don't want you to, but if you're going to say it's a good idea...

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: RY62

Originally posted by: Nebor
As a defender of the Iraq war, I felt it necessary to reconcile my feelings with my actions, and turned my Officer Candidate School packet into my recruiter on Friday (ps, it's really, really difficult to get high school transcripts when you're nearly 30.)

So I'm a 30-ish guy leaving a 6 figure job, nice house and cush life for the Army. And according to the wall of enlisted and OCS candidates at the local recruiting office, I'm not the only one. Lots of high quality people are still lining up to serve their country.

Let me be the first of, hopefully, many who will thank you for your service. I have the utmost respect for an individual who's willing to stand up for what they believe in.

Does that include people who stand up for their belief that joining the military is not something to be done lightly, and is recklessly immoral with the current administration?

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: RY62

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: RY62

Originally posted by: Nebor
As a defender of the Iraq war, I felt it necessary to reconcile my feelings with my actions, and turned my Officer Candidate School packet into my recruiter on Friday (ps, it's really, really difficult to get high school transcripts when you're nearly 30.)

So I'm a 30-ish guy leaving a 6 figure job, nice house and cush life for the Army. And according to the wall of enlisted and OCS candidates at the local recruiting office, I'm not the only one. Lots of high quality people are still lining up to serve their country.

Let me be the first of, hopefully, many who will thank you for your service. I have the utmost respect for an individual who's willing to stand up for what they believe in.

And I have the utmost respect for an individual who's willing to engage his brain first and find something worth believing in and THEN committing to it. Blind loyalty to people and ideas is far too common a trait to admire, I'll save my admiration for people who are smart about what they believe in.

It wasn't my intention to insult your belief. I can also respect the fact that others, like yourself, fight for what you believe in. There are many battlefields and many ways to battle.

It seems to me that Nebor has found something that, to him, is worth believing in and is then committing to it.

In this case, I personally believe we still have a job to do in Iraq. I still have hope that we can leave it a better place than we found it. I'm not sure how we'll do it. I just don't think we can do that with an immediate withdrawal.

Let me put it this way:

There are positive character traits shown by someone who makes a sacrifice for their beliefs, as Nebor is doing.

But that's not enough is it, when poorly choosing those actions results in, say, killing innocent people, in wrong war?

I can praise the positive qualities in Neboe's choice, but how can I not then equally praise the people who choose even greater risk who fight against him, say, to defend Iraq?

This is why I've always had an issue with those on the left who make the issue the fact that most right-wing leaders are Chickenhawks. My answer to them is, would it be ok if people were advocating immoral war that they are happy to go and kill for? No. So the Chickenhawk aspect is secondary to the real issue.

So, I have to condemn Nebor's choice in my view of the effect it has on other human beings in Iraq, despite the positive qualities involved in him trying to do some misguided good.

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: RY62

Originally posted by: Nebor
As a defender of the Iraq war, I felt it necessary to reconcile my feelings with my actions, and turned my Officer Candidate School packet into my recruiter on Friday (ps, it's really, really difficult to get high school transcripts when you're nearly 30.)

So I'm a 30-ish guy leaving a 6 figure job, nice house and cush life for the Army. And according to the wall of enlisted and OCS candidates at the local recruiting office, I'm not the only one. Lots of high quality people are still lining up to serve their country.

Let me be the first of, hopefully, many who will thank you for your service. I have the utmost respect for an individual who's willing to stand up for what they believe in.

And I have the utmost respect for an individual who's willing to engage his brain first and find something worth believing in and THEN committing to it. Blind loyalty to people and ideas is far too common a trait to admire, I'll save my admiration for people who are smart about what they believe in.

The ideas on which America were founded are worth faith and loyalty.

My belief that some moderate versions of imperialism serve America's interests just so happen to coincide with the current administration's. If I can help that secure those interests, while suporting and defending the constitution, then that's all the better.

I should have put "I was tired of ATP&N calling me a chickenhawk" in my "Why I want to be a US Army Officer" essay.

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Nebor
The ideas on which America were founded are worth faith and loyalty.

Actually I agree with the statement, but the ideas on which America was founded have been tossed into the garbage can. Invading and occupying foreign countries certainly was not an idea our founders had.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Originally posted by: Nebor


I should have put "I was tired of ATP&N calling me a chickenhawk" in my "Why I want to be a US Army Officer" essay.

Why I want to kill Iraqis

I'm a 30 yr old openly gay civilian who has been involved in several shoot-outs just trying to lead a normal life in Texas
I think I would be an EXcellent choice to lead and order a group of men in Iraq with my experience's
I have already had lots of training in man to man gunfights and be able to guide my men through thick and thin from base

Thank you
Nebo

 

[jonks]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I thought they have pretty much done away with don't ask don't tell because of the war?

I know I read that some place. Most likely an unofficial policy.

"Hey Sarge, I'm gay"
"Oh wow, I'm happy too, not get out there and fight."

Unless you're in a totally unneeded and unnecessary position like, oh i dunno, Arabic translator? Good thing we're not involved in any wars in the Middle East or we'd really have a problem.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14052513/
But the GAO also noted that nearly 800 dismissed gay or lesbian service members had critical abilities, including 300 with important language skills. Fifty-five were proficient in Arabic

 

[K1052]

Originally posted by: sirjonk

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
I thought they have pretty much done away with don't ask don't tell because of the war?

I know I read that some place. Most likely an unofficial policy.

"Hey Sarge, I'm gay"
"Oh wow, I'm happy too, not get out there and fight."

Unless you're in a totally unneeded and unnecessary position like, oh i dunno, Arabic translator? Good thing we're not involved in any wars in the Middle East or we'd really have a problem.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14052513/
But the GAO also noted that nearly 800 dismissed gay or lesbian service members had critical abilities, including 300 with important language skills. Fifty-five were proficient in Arabic

Gays threaten "unit cohesion" (because straights and gays obviously can't be friends) and they might look at your junk in the shower thereby damaging the very fragile masculinity of the average military man.

 

[cubeless]

Originally posted by: fallout man

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
Join the Army or go to jail is hardly new.

It's only a small percentage of recruits.

Be wary of your sources. This is nowhere near the big deal the Guardian tried to make it, imo.

http://www.morningjournal.com/...61&dept_id=46368&rfi=6

Military brass assure the public that each felon is accepted only after close review, with recommendations by the recruits' community leaders, and the final decision is made by a brigadier general or higher-ranking officer.

The Army accepted 511 felons in 2007, up from 249 in 2006.

The Marines accepted 350 felons, up from 208 in 2006.

The Navy let in only 42 felons last year, down from 48 in 2006, and the Air Force did not admit any felons as recruits in 2007, the story noted. Overall, the 2007 felon recruits account for only one-half of 1 percent of all 180,000 people taken into the active duty military forces in fiscal 2007. That's not a huge fraction, but it is growing and it is large enough to get one's attention.

Since you have the sources:

What did those figures look like pre-2003?

don't go back too far, since going into the service used to be an alternative to being a felon...

come on, y'all... it's not like most of the folks who have ever joined the services spent a long night trying to decide whether to join up or accept that admission to mit...

i'm pretty damn glad that those who do still join up do still join up... someone's gotta do it...

 

[Throckmorton]

Talk about knee jerk reactions. They look at each case. Someone on the radio was giving examples of these "felons". One conflicted burglar was 14 when he and his friends stole a golf cart.

 

[Craig234]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: RY62

Originally posted by: Nebor
As a defender of the Iraq war, I felt it necessary to reconcile my feelings with my actions, and turned my Officer Candidate School packet into my recruiter on Friday (ps, it's really, really difficult to get high school transcripts when you're nearly 30.)

So I'm a 30-ish guy leaving a 6 figure job, nice house and cush life for the Army. And according to the wall of enlisted and OCS candidates at the local recruiting office, I'm not the only one. Lots of high quality people are still lining up to serve their country.

Let me be the first of, hopefully, many who will thank you for your service. I have the utmost respect for an individual who's willing to stand up for what they believe in.

And I have the utmost respect for an individual who's willing to engage his brain first and find something worth believing in and THEN committing to it. Blind loyalty to people and ideas is far too common a trait to admire, I'll save my admiration for people who are smart about what they believe in.

The ideas on which America were founded are worth faith and loyalty.

My belief that some moderate versions of imperialism serve America's interests just so happen to coincide with the current administration's. If I can help that secure those interests, while suporting and defending the constitution, then that's all the better.

I should have put "I was tired of ATP&N calling me a chickenhawk" in my "Why I want to be a US Army Officer" essay.

Your belief that some 'moderate versions of imperialism serve America's interests' implies a complete disregard for the lives of other human beings - only 'America's interests' count.

It's like saying that a moderate form of killing your neighbors to take their nice plasma tv, their nice hot tub, serve your family's interests.

So, it sounds like a nice little excuse for murdering people. Don't expect me to say how nice your position is.

I don't want to see you hurt, but you put me in the position of choosing between someone who could care less about killing others if it is in your nation's 'interests', the safety of human beings in a place like Iraq who are not stepping foot outside their country and in their view defending it from foreign invasion/occupation. I don't like to see them hurt either.

And your pablum about American being 'founded on faith and loyalty' is the sort of nutty romanticism and deluded view that only your nation has such values that is absurd. Those are not values created for the American revolution. They existed in it, on both sides of the war, and among other nations; they are general, not specific to the US.

America was founded on the values of granting individuals political rights and freedoms, that the people are the sovereign and the government serves them - values which the Iraqis did not have honored under Saddam, and which were not a primary issue for the US in going to war, but only secondary. The US government rejected plans to quickly give sovereignity to the Iraqi people and put in place a US occupation government which did some things very much against the power of the Iraqi people, such as making all Americans immune to any Iraqi laws indefinitely, even after the Iraqis were 'in charge'; they had a plan to put our own guy in charge of their nation, Chalabi, which only accidentally fell through. The invasion was about the US gaining a permanent military presence in Iraq as a base for expanding our military presence in the region, hardly those 'founding American values'. The fact that you think it's ok to kill Iraqis for 'our interests' the same way any criminal nation kills people 'for its interests' I think is morally a criminal act on your part.

You're a member of the human race, and have some duties of 'faith and loyalty' to all people, not just Americans.

When you become the most powerful nation, you have some responsibility not to abuse your military strenght, and you are not meeting that requirement from your posts.

Who's the bad guy who is leaving his own nation to go help kill people in another nation for mercenary reasons? It's not the Iraqis.

 

[Carmen813]

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: RY62

Originally posted by: Nebor
As a defender of the Iraq war, I felt it necessary to reconcile my feelings with my actions, and turned my Officer Candidate School packet into my recruiter on Friday (ps, it's really, really difficult to get high school transcripts when you're nearly 30.)

So I'm a 30-ish guy leaving a 6 figure job, nice house and cush life for the Army. And according to the wall of enlisted and OCS candidates at the local recruiting office, I'm not the only one. Lots of high quality people are still lining up to serve their country.

Let me be the first of, hopefully, many who will thank you for your service. I have the utmost respect for an individual who's willing to stand up for what they believe in.

Does that include people who stand up for their belief that joining the military is not something to be done lightly, and is recklessly immoral with the current administration?

Craig, you are eqating military service with political agreement. There are plenty of people who join the military who do not agree with our policies in Iraq or Afghanistan. Yes, signing up for the military to go and shoot people as much as you can is immoral. BUt that decision would be immoral at anytime, regardless of the political situation.



Back on topic, I see no reason why gays shouldn't be able to openly serve in the military. They would change the unit and thus affect unit cohesion, but so did women and african americans, so I don't see it as something that cannot and should not be overcome.

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: Craig234

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: RY62

Originally posted by: Nebor
As a defender of the Iraq war, I felt it necessary to reconcile my feelings with my actions, and turned my Officer Candidate School packet into my recruiter on Friday (ps, it's really, really difficult to get high school transcripts when you're nearly 30.)

So I'm a 30-ish guy leaving a 6 figure job, nice house and cush life for the Army. And according to the wall of enlisted and OCS candidates at the local recruiting office, I'm not the only one. Lots of high quality people are still lining up to serve their country.

Let me be the first of, hopefully, many who will thank you for your service. I have the utmost respect for an individual who's willing to stand up for what they believe in.

And I have the utmost respect for an individual who's willing to engage his brain first and find something worth believing in and THEN committing to it. Blind loyalty to people and ideas is far too common a trait to admire, I'll save my admiration for people who are smart about what they believe in.

The ideas on which America were founded are worth faith and loyalty.

My belief that some moderate versions of imperialism serve America's interests just so happen to coincide with the current administration's. If I can help that secure those interests, while suporting and defending the constitution, then that's all the better.

I should have put "I was tired of ATP&N calling me a chickenhawk" in my "Why I want to be a US Army Officer" essay.

Your belief that some 'moderate versions of imperialism serve America's interests' implies a complete disregard for the lives of other human beings - only 'America's interests' count.

It's like saying that a moderate form of killing your neighbors to take their nice plasma tv, their nice hot tub, serve your family's interests.

So, it sounds like a nice little excuse for murdering people. Don't expect me to say how nice your position is.

I don't want to see you hurt, but you put me in the position of choosing between someone who could care less about killing others if it is in your nation's 'interests', the safety of human beings in a place like Iraq who are not stepping foot outside their country and in their view defending it from foreign invasion/occupation. I don't like to see them hurt either.

And your pablum about American being 'founded on faith and loyalty' is the sort of nutty romanticism and deluded view that only your nation has such values that is absurd. Those are not values created for the American revolution. They existed in it, on both sides of the war, and among other nations; they are general, not specific to the US.

America was founded on the values of granting individuals political rights and freedoms, that the people are the sovereign and the government serves them - values which the Iraqis did not have honored under Saddam, and which were not a primary issue for the US in going to war, but only secondary. The US government rejected plans to quickly give sovereignity to the Iraqi people and put in place a US occupation government which did some things very much against the power of the Iraqi people, such as making all Americans immune to any Iraqi laws indefinitely, even after the Iraqis were 'in charge'; they had a plan to put our own guy in charge of their nation, Chalabi, which only accidentally fell through. The invasion was about the US gaining a permanent military presence in Iraq as a base for expanding our military presence in the region, hardly those 'founding American values'. The fact that you think it's ok to kill Iraqis for 'our interests' the same way any criminal nation kills people 'for its interests' I think is morally a criminal act on your part.

You're a member of the human race, and have some duties of 'faith and loyalty' to all people, not just Americans.

When you become the most powerful nation, you have some responsibility not to abuse your military strenght, and you are not meeting that requirement from your posts.

Who's the bad guy who is leaving his own nation to go help kill people in another nation for mercenary reasons? It's not the Iraqis.

I respect anyone that stands to fight for what they believe in, that includes the Iraqis, Al queda and Osama Bin Ladin. I certainly plan on fighting for what I believe in, and while I believe I'll emerge on the winning side, I realize there's a decent chance I could die. That's the risk I take.

You and I just have fundamentally different views of right and wrong. You're probably right. You're probably a better more compassionate person than I. *shrug*