What the heck is wrong with China??

[moshquerade]

Originally posted by: bdude

Originally posted by: DomS

Originally posted by: zoiks
Can we open a dedicated thread where the members who hate any positive news about China can post their grievances? It would be awesome of we can get all the douchebags collected in one area.

how is this POSITIVE...the government takes their children regardless of what the family thinks, and they rarely/never see them again. I'm sure SOME families and SOME children enjoy the benefits of being in the program...but even if they hated it, they have no choice. That's not freedom, that's oppression.

You don't know sh!t my friend. Unfortunately most of China is still too poor to post a reply in their own defense. Enjoy your temporal luxuries and find something more worthwhile to bitch about.

Most of China is still too poor or can they not reply because their internet has been censored?

 

[spacejamz]

Originally posted by: Ns1

Originally posted by: Yongsta
Currently there's about 100 million "middle class" Chinese out there. Middle Class is defined as making an annual income of $9,000 - $73,000 US. 100 million out of 1.3 billion people. Even though the estimates show within 10 years, 700 million Chinese will be "middle class" status, at the moment there's still a lot living in poverty. So I can see why a lot of people living in poorer rural areas would want to send their kids to train.

In china, even if you're 1 in a million there's still 1,300 people just like you

sig worthy!!

 

[0roo0roo]

Originally posted by: moshquerade

Originally posted by: bdude

Originally posted by: DomS

Originally posted by: zoiks
Can we open a dedicated thread where the members who hate any positive news about China can post their grievances? It would be awesome of we can get all the douchebags collected in one area.

how is this POSITIVE...the government takes their children regardless of what the family thinks, and they rarely/never see them again. I'm sure SOME families and SOME children enjoy the benefits of being in the program...but even if they hated it, they have no choice. That's not freedom, that's oppression.

You don't know sh!t my friend. Unfortunately most of China is still too poor to post a reply in their own defense. Enjoy your temporal luxuries and find something more worthwhile to bitch about.

Most of China is still too poor or can they not reply because their internet has been censored?

win.

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: Ns1
wow dude, just wow.

Feel free to correct anything I said, I'm not the most close minded individual in the world. However, I don't gain anything from your amazement.

 

[Nitemare]

Originally posted by: zoiks

Originally posted by: Nitemare

Originally posted by: zoiks
Can we open a dedicated thread where the members who hate any positive news about China can post their grievances? It would be awesome of we can get all the douchebags collected in one area.

and we can create a thread where people with their heads still stuck in the sand could post as well.

I guess we could. But it just could be that the people with their 'heads stuck in the sand' as you call it are giving credit where its due and not nitpick every little detail they could find to discredit China.

If you remember correctly, the USSR & East Germany used to have a kickass Olympics team as well

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_Summer_Olympics

Just goes to show you how countries can excel when they treat their people like garbage.

 

[Ns1]

But then we have to dig deeper. Because if this is considered a "good practice" then China has motivation to keep a large portion of the population poor so that they can just cherry pick the good people out and let the rest rot.

I don't see the rest of China rotting away, so if you can point that out for me, that'd be great. That's also quite the tin-foil hat theory that it's in China's best interest to keep the majority of the population poor for the sole purpose of raising olympic gymnasts. Keeping them poor so that they can't rise up, maybe I could agree with that. But so that they can cherry pick gymnasts? Come on dude.

That's what's happening isn't it?

No

It takes a hell of a "glass half full" outlook to spin that situation into a good thing because 1 person out of many gets a "good life" at the cost of never really knowing their own family and probably not even being able to associate with their family anymore due to the massive differences in life style.

Unless I'm reading this wrong, you pretty much pulled this statement out of your ass. I bet Lisa Simpson can't get along with her family either because of the massive differences in life style.

But I don't live in China, so I can't really say.

No, you can't.

 

[oddyager]

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: shinerburke
It is the whole "The glory of the state is more important than the life of the individual" thing they have going on.

Confucianism

Wrong on every level.

Originally posted by: DomS

Originally posted by: zoiks
Can we open a dedicated thread where the members who hate any positive news about China can post their grievances? It would be awesome of we can get all the douchebags collected in one area.

how is this POSITIVE...the government takes their children regardless of what the family thinks, and they rarely/never see them again. I'm sure SOME families and SOME children enjoy the benefits of being in the program...but even if they hated it, they have no choice. That's not freedom, that's oppression.

Because this is, for a significant portion of the population, the only avenue for poverty stricken families to provide for their child? Yeah its a shitty system and all but how is this any different from the abuse little girls here in the States face when their parents force them through beauty pageants? Where's the public outcry?

 

[sdifox]

Originally posted by: skace

Originally posted by: z0mb13
hooray for uninformed people making conclusions!

you have to also know that a lot of people in interior China are still dirt poor, so their families voluntarily give up their son/daughter if he/she are good enough to practice for the olympic program. This will bring glory to the family and probably will also bring them out of poverty.

families LINE UP to send their offspring, because their offspring would have a better life than if they stayed with the family

But then we have to dig deeper. Because if this is considered a "good practice" then China has motivation to keep a large portion of the population poor so that they can just cherry pick the good people out and let the rest rot. That's what's happening isn't it? It takes a hell of a "glass half full" outlook to spin that situation into a good thing because 1 person out of many gets a "good life" at the cost of never really knowing their own family and probably not even being able to associate with their family anymore due to the massive differences in life style.

But I don't live in China, so I can't really say.

Dude, whatever you are smoking or drinking, lay off it a few days.

 

[Passions]

What the hell is wrong with China!!! The US is the Best!!! How could they not feed their children McDonald's with Super sized fries with Diet Coke!!! I'm so disgusted with their nation even more now. My respect for them has dropped even more. Now I'm going to go listen to music on my iPod.

 

[bdude]

Originally posted by: Passions
What the hell is wrong with China!!! The US is the Best!!! How could they not feed their children McDonald's with Super sized fries with Diet Coke!!! I'm so disgusted with their nation even more now. My respect for them has dropped even more. Now I'm going to go listen to music on my iPod.

Me too. yawn.

 

[sdifox]

Originally posted by: Passions
What the hell is wrong with China!!! The US is the Best!!! How could they not feed their children McDonald's with Super sized fries with Diet Coke!!! I'm so disgusted with their nation even more now. My respect for them has dropped even more. Now I'm going to go listen to music on my iPod.

somehow this rant reminds me of Chris Tucker in 5th Element.

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: Ns1
I don't see the rest of China rotting away, so if you can point that out for me, that'd be great. That's also quite the tin-foil hat theory that it's in China's best interest to keep the majority of the population poor for the sole purpose of raising olympic gymnasts. Keeping them poor so that they can't rise up, maybe I could agree with that. But so that they can cherry pick gymnasts? Come on dude.

Ok now I see what your issue is. I never said all of China. I said a large portion, more specifically, the poor areas. But it was poorly written. I meant they are benefiting from the situation when I'd rather they have motivation for the opposite (to correct the situation instead of 1 persons life).

Unless I'm reading this wrong, you pretty much pulled this statement out of your ass. I bet Lisa Simpson can't get along with her family either because of the massive differences in life style.

Let's say your family lives in a small house with no plumbing or electricity. You've seen them once a year since you were 3 and all the while you've been living in a fully functional house with a proper bathroom/etc. Would you even be able to adjust and go back to those living conditions ever? That is a huge discrepancy and your example didn't do much to counter it.

 

[Ns1]

Unless I'm reading this wrong, you pretty much pulled this statement out of your ass. I bet Lisa Simpson can't get along with her family either because of the massive differences in life style.

Let's say your family lives in a small house with no plumbing or electricity. You've seen them once a year since you were 3 and all the while you've been living in a fully functional house with a proper bathroom/etc. Would you even be able to adjust and go back to those living conditions ever? That is a huge discrepancy and your example didn't do much to counter it.

Well show me where that is more than a hypothetical example and I might be inclined to agree with you. Of course, you can also look at it as, now that gymnast has a chance to help their family out, where there were no opportunities before.

 

[DomS]

Originally posted by: skace

Originally posted by: z0mb13
hooray for uninformed people making conclusions!

you have to also know that a lot of people in interior China are still dirt poor, so their families voluntarily give up their son/daughter if he/she are good enough to practice for the olympic program. This will bring glory to the family and probably will also bring them out of poverty.

families LINE UP to send their offspring, because their offspring would have a better life than if they stayed with the family

But then we have to dig deeper. Because if this is considered a "good practice" then China has motivation to keep a large portion of the population poor so that they can just cherry pick the good people out and let the rest rot. That's what's happening isn't it? It takes a hell of a "glass half full" outlook to spin that situation into a good thing because 1 person out of many gets a "good life" at the cost of never really knowing their own family and probably not even being able to associate with their family anymore due to the massive differences in life style.

But I don't live in China, so I can't really say.

Absolutely.


Like someone said, it beats a sweatshop...but the point is NEITHER should exist. None of these olympic factories that are taking kids from their families (yeah I'm sure the family saying no would go over reeeeeally well), just as there shouldn't be the massive corruption, oppression, and poverty that is present there now.

 

[StormRider]

Originally posted by: Nitemare

Originally posted by: zoiks

Originally posted by: Nitemare

Originally posted by: zoiks
Can we open a dedicated thread where the members who hate any positive news about China can post their grievances? It would be awesome of we can get all the douchebags collected in one area.

and we can create a thread where people with their heads still stuck in the sand could post as well.

I guess we could. But it just could be that the people with their 'heads stuck in the sand' as you call it are giving credit where its due and not nitpick every little detail they could find to discredit China.

If you remember correctly, the USSR & East Germany used to have a kickass Olympics team as well

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_Summer_Olympics

Just goes to show you how countries can excel when they treat their people like garbage.

Actually, comparing China and the USSR is interesting. I had always wondered which path was better towards democracy and freedom.

When the USSR broke apart, it seemed like Russia had greater political and personal freedoms compared to China. But Russia had a very poor economy and a growing problem with organized crime and corruption. It also seemed a lot of their women went into the sex market (prostitution and pr0n). Russia seemed a bit unstable to me -- it seems a lot of those freedoms have faded and it's a bit chaotic over there?

China decided to open up it's economy while giving less political and personal freedoms compared to Russia. I think Chinese picked this path because Chinese people value stability above all else. The rising economy helped improved the life of many ordinary Chinese and a strong economy is a stable influence. China still has a lot of work ahead of them because there are still many poor areas of China and they have to address the growing gap between the wealthy and the poor. I'm hoping that as the old leadership is replaced by younger Western educated leaders they will allow more political and personal freedoms. I'm hoping that the Chinese way is a more stable path from moving a country from a totalitarian state to a future democratic state.

So which path is better? Emphasize political and personal freedoms first over economic development? Is Russia currently going in the right direction? Have some of those political and personal freedoms disappeared? Is the situation in the former Soviet Union stable? When we worry about terrorists getting their hands of nukes -- aren't we more worried about then getting a hand on Soviet nukes compared to Chinese nukes?

 

[skace]

Originally posted by: Ns1
Well show me where that is more than a hypothetical example and I might be inclined to agree with you. Of course, you can also look at it as, now that gymnast has a chance to help their family out, where there were no opportunities before.

And then we have to discuss whether her family would be able to adjust in the other direction? Would her father whose been a farmer his entire life be able to just move to the city and switch gears? Face it, they are at the opposite ends of the spectrum now and that presents some complications.

When I was writing this up I thought of an example in the US, let's say a poor inner city family where the son becomes a professional sports player. Even in that situation, his original living conditions were not that bad. It may be dangerous in the inner city, but it is still a normal life. You have schools, vehicles, plumbing, electricity, just like anyone else. You may not have massive luxuries and a house in 5 different states, but you've got the basics. That's really what it comes down to, the basic living conditions. You can judge a country based on what the poor have not what the rich have.

Edit: I didn't mean to get this deep into the argument... I don't really care what China does (hell I don't even vote). I was just trying to cause someone to question how they broke the problem down. I work with Root Cause Analysis issues a lot. So I could see how zombie was stopping at the original cause, but not digging any deeper, that's all. I don't have all the answers. When you are trying to understand why something occurs, you shouldn't stop at the first answer but keep question every following answer until you get to the root of the problem. In other words, we've answered why the government can move her away (family gave her away), we then answered why they gave her away (family is dirt poor), but we never bothered to answer why the family was dirt poor . Maybe that explains my point a little better.

 

[DomS]

Originally posted by: oddyager

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: shinerburke
It is the whole "The glory of the state is more important than the life of the individual" thing they have going on.

Confucianism

Wrong on every level.

Originally posted by: DomS

Originally posted by: zoiks
Can we open a dedicated thread where the members who hate any positive news about China can post their grievances? It would be awesome of we can get all the douchebags collected in one area.

how is this POSITIVE...the government takes their children regardless of what the family thinks, and they rarely/never see them again. I'm sure SOME families and SOME children enjoy the benefits of being in the program...but even if they hated it, they have no choice. That's not freedom, that's oppression.

Because this is, for a significant portion of the population, the only avenue for poverty stricken families to provide for their child? Yeah its a shitty system and all but how is this any different from the abuse little girls here in the States face when their parents force them through beauty pageants? Where's the public outcry?

There is a public outcry. THose pageants are disgusting. The government isn't ripping those kids out of their homes and putting them in pageants. There's no fear that if they don't win a pageant the government may murder their family.

 

[DomS]

Originally posted by: skace

Originally posted by: Ns1
Well show me where that is more than a hypothetical example and I might be inclined to agree with you. Of course, you can also look at it as, now that gymnast has a chance to help their family out, where there were no opportunities before.

And then we have to discuss whether her family would be able to adjust in the other direction? Would her father whose been a farmer his entire life be able to just move to the city and switch gears? Face it, they are at the opposite ends of the spectrum now and that presents some complications.

When I was writing this up I thought of an example in the US, let's say a poor inner city family where the son becomes a professional sports player. Even in that situation, his original living conditions were not that bad. It may be dangerous in the inner city, but it is still a normal life. You have schools, vehicles, plumbing, electricity, just like anyone else. You may not have massive luxuries and a house in 5 different states, but you've got the basics. That's really what it comes down to, the basic living conditions. You can judge a country based on what the poor have not what the rich have.

Which is why almost every pro athlete goes bankrupt after they retire. THey have no idea how to transition from one life to the next.

 

[StormRider]

Originally posted by: DomS

Originally posted by: oddyager

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: shinerburke
It is the whole "The glory of the state is more important than the life of the individual" thing they have going on.

Confucianism

Wrong on every level.

Originally posted by: DomS

Originally posted by: zoiks
Can we open a dedicated thread where the members who hate any positive news about China can post their grievances? It would be awesome of we can get all the douchebags collected in one area.

how is this POSITIVE...the government takes their children regardless of what the family thinks, and they rarely/never see them again. I'm sure SOME families and SOME children enjoy the benefits of being in the program...but even if they hated it, they have no choice. That's not freedom, that's oppression.

Because this is, for a significant portion of the population, the only avenue for poverty stricken families to provide for their child? Yeah its a shitty system and all but how is this any different from the abuse little girls here in the States face when their parents force them through beauty pageants? Where's the public outcry?

There is a public outcry. THose pageants are disgusting. The government isn't ripping those kids out of their homes and putting them in pageants. There's no fear that if they don't win a pageant the government may murder their family.

China does not murder Olympic athletes who don't win. Quit making things up in your hatred of China.

 

[oddyager]

Originally posted by: DomS

Originally posted by: oddyager

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: shinerburke
It is the whole "The glory of the state is more important than the life of the individual" thing they have going on.

Confucianism

Wrong on every level.

Originally posted by: DomS

Originally posted by: zoiks
Can we open a dedicated thread where the members who hate any positive news about China can post their grievances? It would be awesome of we can get all the douchebags collected in one area.

how is this POSITIVE...the government takes their children regardless of what the family thinks, and they rarely/never see them again. I'm sure SOME families and SOME children enjoy the benefits of being in the program...but even if they hated it, they have no choice. That's not freedom, that's oppression.

Because this is, for a significant portion of the population, the only avenue for poverty stricken families to provide for their child? Yeah its a shitty system and all but how is this any different from the abuse little girls here in the States face when their parents force them through beauty pageants? Where's the public outcry?

There is a public outcry. THose pageants are disgusting. The government isn't ripping those kids out of their homes and putting them in pageants. There's no fear that if they don't win a pageant the government may murder their family.

Quit gussying up the fact the kids still have no say either way so it isn't any different, and kudos to you for pulling stuff out of your ass.

 

[Cuda1447]

Originally posted by: TallBill
Well they did win.

And shinerburke, while I agree that most of them look young, that picture is fucking horrible quality so it defeats itself.

It's pretty well accepted that the Chinese government did supply fact birth certificates. This aren't wild accusations, but quite a bit of evidence to back the claims. It just can't be proven 100%

 

[technophile82]

i swear i saw a MISSING TOOTH when one of the chinese gymnasts smiled last night. I dont ever recall hearing of any 16 year olds still losing their baby teeth.

 

[Ns1]

Originally posted by: StormRider

Originally posted by: DomS

Originally posted by: oddyager

Originally posted by: Dari

Originally posted by: shinerburke
It is the whole "The glory of the state is more important than the life of the individual" thing they have going on.

Confucianism

Wrong on every level.

Originally posted by: DomS

Originally posted by: zoiks
Can we open a dedicated thread where the members who hate any positive news about China can post their grievances? It would be awesome of we can get all the douchebags collected in one area.

how is this POSITIVE...the government takes their children regardless of what the family thinks, and they rarely/never see them again. I'm sure SOME families and SOME children enjoy the benefits of being in the program...but even if they hated it, they have no choice. That's not freedom, that's oppression.

Because this is, for a significant portion of the population, the only avenue for poverty stricken families to provide for their child? Yeah its a shitty system and all but how is this any different from the abuse little girls here in the States face when their parents force them through beauty pageants? Where's the public outcry?

There is a public outcry. THose pageants are disgusting. The government isn't ripping those kids out of their homes and putting them in pageants. There's no fear that if they don't win a pageant the government may murder their family.

China does not murder Olympic athletes who don't win. Quit making things up in your hatred of China.

While this is true, this may be the exception

 

[UncleWai]

We can add another thing to the list that we need to free.
Free Tibet, Darfur, little gymnast girls in China, Ossentia, Willy!

 

[chuckywang]

Originally posted by: DomS
OK, so I was watching women's gymnastics tonight, and the announcers were talking about the 20 year old team captain for china...this is what one of the announcers said:

"She was taken away from her family at 3, and put into the olympic program. She would get to talk to her family maybe once per year. One day she called her family and said she wanted to go home. Her family knew what it would do for their status having her compete, so they told her 'no you can't come home'.

I mean seriously, wtf is wrong with this country? Talk about an inferiority complex. They take these kids away from their families when the kids are as young as 3, and then stick them in these olympic-factory programs...I thought I'd have a hard time being more disgusted with this country, but that anecdote about their gymnastics team captain actually lowered my respect for their country even more. What a bunch of heathens.

So considering that the Chinese women gymnasts and the American women gymnasts are about even, what are the Americans doing differently that cause them to be on par with the Chinese?