what the heck is it with Dems and high speed trains?

[Praxis1452]

Optimal distance is around 2-3 hours on HSR, which wikipedia cites to be around 150-550 miles.

How would chicago being a hub of HSR traffic even make sense? It's quite a bit farther than that from chicago to DC, chicago to boston, chicago to NYC No? Chicago to where exactly makes sense?

HSR I think only makes sense in a few areas, not to mention, I have absolutely not faith that it will work out. It's gonna be poorly executed, the costs will overrun, and it will end up a big failure without a doubt.

 

[Hacp]

Should just make it a government program to get people back to work, fuck the unions. Then slowly privatize parts of it. I wouldn't have an issue with that. Work-fare and they get to do something incredibly useful.

Who do you think is going to run the trains? Union members of course! Even if building the system is reasonable in costs, the fare will be high because of union workers making more than they're worth. I have no problem with an educated Union engineer making 60-70k. But you have union garbage men or toll booth people making 60k with benefits and pensions in the NYC subway system alone!

 

[Brainonska511]

Trains can work. However, if you have union labor doing the work, it becomes too expensive.

Define reasonable wages? 10 dollars an hour is reasonable to me. I'm guessing your idea of reasonable would be 20 dollars with full benefits.

$10/hour is what I made at 18 as a cashier in a grocery store, but I bet you'd be happy with people working for pennies a day. Maybe we can model our wage system like China's. Go back to the good old days of 1900, where you could just take a big shit all over your employees.

Who do you think is going to run the trains? Union members of course! Even if building the system is reasonable in costs, the fare will be high because of union workers making more than they're worth. I have no problem with an educated Union engineer making 60-70k. But you have union garbage men or toll booth people making 60k with benefits and pensions in the NYC subway system alone!

What the hell is your problem? Every single thread is "Blahblahblah I hate unions." We get it, you don't like unions because you generalize a few bad apples to an entire idea. You don't have to crap in every freakin' thread.

 

[Pneumothorax]

I know this was sort of brought up earlier, but the security costs are going to be enormous. You're essentially going to need somewhat akin to "border patrol" and thousands of monitored cameras guarding this rail. For example, the proposed line between sf and la is quite desolate. Easy pickings for terrorists.... Plus it makes a prime target as they can potentially kill a lot more people than a loaded 747 in one fell swoop. I'm also quite sure we'll need the customary take your laptop out and shoes off type of security at the train station.

 

[bfdd]

I know this was sort of brought up earlier, but the security costs are going to be enormous. You're essentially going to need somewhat akin to "border patrol" and thousands of monitored cameras guarding this rail. For example, the proposed line between sf and la is quite desolate. Easy pickings for terrorists.... Plus it makes a prime target as they can potentially kill a lot more people than a loaded 747 in one fell swoop. I'm also quite sure we'll need the customary take your laptop out and shoes off type of security at the train station.

Really? You really think that's a big deal? Do you know how many power plants and refineries there are in California? Most are situated right next to each other also. Look at Carson and Wilmington down here in Southern California. If just ONE of those went BOOM the whole area would go BOOM. Nothing has happened there and that would be a much better target than a high speed train.

 

[jjmIII]

No, best is to not try anything at all, best is to say choo choo and wait for the train...

I'll take ALL this countries problems over being your fucking neighbor. Asshole.

 

[Pneumothorax]

Really? You really think that's a big deal? Do you know how many power plants and refineries there are in California? Most are situated right next to each other also. Look at Carson and Wilmington down here in Southern California. If just ONE of those went BOOM the whole area would go BOOM. Nothing has happened there and that would be a much better target than a high speed train.

How big is a power plant? How many people would instantly die from an explosion? Terrorists work for the psychological effect. It's a lot easier to defend a few square miles of nuke power plant than a 450+ mile rail line in a desolate area with thousands of passengers using it a day.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

But we go back to the problem of only being able to fit so many cars on the road. And why are these ideas mutually exclusive? We can build better intercity infrastructure at the same time as looking towards alternate fuel sources.

Because we only have limited resources and the state of CA is approaching bankruptcy. This thing called money does not grow on trees and thus you must make careful decisions and ensure we actually create something that is not going to be a massive failure on many levels.

 

[DucatiMonster696]

Really? You really think that's a big deal? Do you know how many power plants and refineries there are in California? Most are situated right next to each other also. Look at Carson and Wilmington down here in Southern California. If just ONE of those went BOOM the whole area would go BOOM. Nothing has happened there and that would be a much better target than a high speed train.

How many people would be smuggling drugs, and other contraband into and through those plants? How many people commute into and out of those secured plant facilities. Your comparison is not even remotely close.

 

[sandorski]

How big is a power plant? How many people would instantly die from an explosion? Terrorists work for the psychological effect. It's a lot easier to defend a few square miles of nuke power plant than a 450+ mile rail line in a desolate area with thousands of passengers using it a day.

Cameras overlooking the Line. See suspicious activity, stop the Train. How many thousands of people are stuck on raised roadways during Rush Hour? So far thousands haven't died from Terrorist attacks there.

Hell, if you're going to base the decision on that issue we all might as well go back to Horse and Buggy.

 

[bfdd]

How many people would be smuggling drugs, and other contraband into and through those plants? How many people commute into and out of those secured plant facilities. Your comparison is not even remotely close.

He's talking about security and I know first fucking hand how that is because I have worked at them. These power plants employ a LOT of people and there are communities that live around them, not to mention attacking our energy infrastructure would do a lot more damage psychologically and resource wise than attacking a high speed rail. I can give you an example. If the Carson BP plant was to all of a sudden go KABOOM there are other refineries within that radius which would too go KABOOM setting off a chain reaction which would crater the basin. You guys are so silly thinking about security threats to a train.

 

[Pneumothorax]

He's talking about security and I know first fucking hand how that is because I have worked at them. These power plants employ a LOT of people and there are communities that live around them, not to mention attacking our energy infrastructure would do a lot more damage psychologically and resource wise than attacking a high speed rail. I can give you an example. If the Carson BP plant was to all of a sudden go KABOOM there are other refineries within that radius which would too go KABOOM setting off a chain reaction which would crater the basin. You guys are so silly thinking about security threats to a train.

You're still not getting it, it's all about FEAR. How many of you live right to next to a power plant and gives a f#$% about the others that do?
They're already ahead of us (Madrid and London come to mind). I'm not saying it's going to happen, but you sure as hell know we're going to spend a shitload of money to prevent it.

Cameras overlooking the Line. See suspicious activity, stop the Train. How many thousands of people are stuck on raised roadways during Rush Hour? So far thousands haven't died from Terrorist attacks there.

Again, you would need quite a large amount of explosives and you have a high chance of getting caught since it's in a populated area. A rail line is much easier to take out. And for the cameras... How well is that working for our Mexican border?

 

[sandorski]

Again, you would need quite a large amount of explosives and you have a high chance of getting caught since it's in a populated area. A rail line is much easier to take out. And for the cameras... How well is that working for our Mexican border?

No idea, but the comparison is Moot. How do you think a Terrorist act against a Train will occur?

 

[Pneumothorax]

No idea, but the comparison is Moot. How do you think a Terrorist act against a Train will occur?

The border camera/sensor is basically worthless. Anyways, sneak in some explosives near the track at night and remote detonate. Yes you could stop the train if spot the terrorists by camera in time, but if you could easily have someone call the distance and speed of the train and plant the bomb/detonate before the train has time to stop. A 200 MPH train can't stop in a 100ft like a sports car. It doesn't take much explosive to damage the track causing derailment.

 

[hal2kilo]

$10/hour is what I made at 18 as a cashier in a grocery store, but I bet you'd be happy with people working for pennies a day. Maybe we can model our wage system like China's. Go back to the good old days of 1900, where you could just take a big shit all over your employees.



What the hell is your problem? Every single thread is "Blahblahblah I hate unions." We get it, you don't like unions because you generalize a few bad apples to an entire idea. You don't have to crap in every freakin' thread.

What would he know, he still hasn't paid for rent yet.

 

[Brainonska511]

The border camera/sensor is basically worthless. Anyways, sneak in some explosives near the track at night and remote detonate. Yes you could stop the train if spot the terrorists by camera in time, but if you could easily have someone call the distance and speed of the train and plant the bomb/detonate before the train has time to stop. A 200 MPH train can't stop in a 100ft like a sports car. It doesn't take much explosive to damage the track causing derailment.

That's just ridiculous. We already have tons of people moving on rails every day. Your 'nightmare' scenario can already come true. But if you're going to worry about every little thing like this, I suggest that you just stay in your bunker.

 

[sandorski]

The border camera/sensor is basically worthless. Anyways, sneak in some explosives near the track at night and remote detonate. Yes you could stop the train if spot the terrorists by camera in time, but if you could easily have someone call the distance and speed of the train and plant the bomb/detonate before the train has time to stop. A 200 MPH train can't stop in a 100ft like a sports car. It doesn't take much explosive to damage the track causing derailment.

High Speed Rail lines are usually fenced off.

 

[wirelessenabled]

It takes me under an hour to get from San Francisco to LA at a cost of $45.

The purposed high speed rail connecting the two cities would take 3 hours and the purposed ticket prices are $100.

So not only does it cost twice the amount of flying but it takes 3x as long.

Sure make up anything you want to support your point. More realistic:

1. Drive to SFO. Time ?
2. Get through the traffic getting to the parking garage and park. .5 hours
3. Get to terminal 1.5 hours before flight to check in and get through TSA. 1.5 hours
4. Get on plane and fly to LAX. 1 hour.
5. Taxi to gate and wait for jetway. .25 hour
6. Get off plane and walk to transportation. .25 hour.

Total 3.5 hours and this is at the less busy times of the day and without late flights that occur frequently later in the day.

Train.

1. Drive or take BART to station. ?
2. Arrive 15 minutes early. .25 hours
3. Get on train and ride to LA. 3 hours.
4. Get off in downtown LA and walk to transportation. .25

Total time 3.5 hours.

On the train you have lots of leg room, wifi, bar car, etc.

 

[wirelessenabled]

It already costs 4.3 billion for 58 miles in CA. Now take into account the additional billions more needed to be spent to actually connect SF to LA and the cost just skyrockets. As I stated earlier a better use for such funding would be to actually establish alternative fuel refueling stations and thus lay down the infrastructure across the state (along side other US states which are debating this idea) to make alt. fueled cars (e.g. Hydrogen fueled cars) a viable solution for daily commuters, soccer moms and long distance car travelers instead of dumping money into an idiotic version Amtrak 2.0 - The Springfield monorail edition.

Do you have any idea what roads cost?

In Spokane, WA they are trying to connect I90 to US395 12 miles north.

Cost? $2 billion.

Sounds like 58 miles of HSR for $4.3 is a bargain.

 

[theeedude]

Did you guys take the maglev in Shanghai? Definitely recommended.

 

[Chaotic42]

Do you have any idea what roads cost?

In Spokane, WA they are trying to connect I90 to US395 12 miles north.

Cost? $2 billion.

Sounds like 58 miles of HSR for $4.3 is a bargain.

What is the maximum traffic flow for that I90/US235 connection?

 

[Hacp]

You can't build a railroad for cheap. Especially a high speed one.

 

[K1052]

I don't know but they're trying to ram one through in Wisconsin too.

Milwaukee to Madison train, cost = 800 million, operating cost per year = 8 million

The new governer elect Walker (R) is going to kill the train, and the current governer has stopped work on it. Thank God.

So basically the fed govt will pay for the train (STIMULUS!!), then the wisconsin taxpayers 98% of whom will never once ride that train will have to pay the 8 mill per year after that.

The thing is, Milwaukee to Madison is only about an hour drive on the interstate, so gas money would cost about 8 bucks each way. How much do you think a train ticket will cost?

This train = FAIL

That was going to be an extension of the Hiawatha Service (Chicago-Milwaukee run) which already has an annual ridership of about 800K plus a link for when service is established to the twin cities. Once that line would be established the corridor would certainly be a prime one for an upgrade to 220mph+ rail which would come later. Wisconsin would have had two stops on such a line between even when it probably only merits one (Milwaukee).

Amtrak was even going to cover the operating costs for the next several years and the majority of them for possibly longer as they already do with Hiawatha (the state bill currently amounts to about $500K annually for Hiawatha, hardly big bucks). I don't think Walker deserves a pat on the back for flushing nearly a billion dollar capital investment down the toilet.

 

[WackyDan]

You know... The problem with the democrat's and indeed some republican's idea of what high speed rail is that they think a 90 MPH Amtrak is high speed.

Why the hell are we pouring money year after year into amtrak when we could have taken it and already built true high speed ( Maglev ) lines in some of the most heavily congested parts of the country? Atlanta to D.C? D.C. to Boston? San Fran to San Diego?

Build a truly fast train and people will take it for the shorter hops. I have no problem with the gov't building a common infrastructure and leasing rail time to high speed passenger services during the day, and high speed freight at night.

You can either pay now or pay later, but sooner or later our 1800's rail infrastructure has got to go the way of the dinosaurs.

 

[Brainonska511]

Why the hell are we pouring money year after year into amtrak when we could have taken it and already built true high speed ( Maglev ) lines in some of the most heavily congested parts of the country? Atlanta to D.C? D.C. to Boston? San Fran to San Diego?

We don't need Maglev - it's much more expensive per mile. Traditional HSR is more than enough (think Japanese Bullet Trains, or France's TGV).

The problem is the extremely large capital expenditure to build in crowded parts of the country along with the purchasing appropriate right of ways. The amount of money it would take to run these upgrades and new lines is much more than Amtrak gets per year from the US just to maintain, run, and maybe implement small upgrades. Everyone balks at the cost whenever it comes up and it gets tabled for the future...