what smartphones have the same sensitivity in the touchscreen as Apple?

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Obsoleet

Platinum Member
Oct 2, 2007
2,181
1
0
I'm not much of a phone geek, but just had my choice of any phone from any carrier and went with the HTC Incredible. I would have gone iphone if it had 4G (I live in a 4G market).

Just got a little over 11mbps down on my phone, 34 stories high into the air, in a very heavy built metal/concrete highrise... surrounded by many other high rises and skyscrapers...

just to put that into perspective, I haven't seen a single 3G phone from any carrier not constantly drop signal entirely, including basic voice, in this condo.

Signal is strong in this one, and I suspect 11mbps might be the tip of the iceberg for speedtest on this phone. Makes the whole experience simply orgasmic compared to 3G phones.. and hot spotting is as good as my 10mbps cable connection.

Nothing against iphones here, really, but iphone4 can suck on my Thunderbolt.
 

MrX8503

Diamond Member
Oct 23, 2005
4,529
0
0
Alalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalala

Not hard

Sent from my Droid

If its the original Droid, you don't have a multi touch keyboard. I'm sure you'll get more mistakes than smartphones that do have multi touch keyboards. At least the virtual keyboard anyway.
 

WelshBloke

Lifer
Jan 12, 2005
32,925
11,060
136
Alalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalal

Not sure that's the best test.

Sent from my HTC Desire using Tapatalk
 

BenSkywalker

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,140
67
91
Nope. Zip. Nada. Only Android 3.0 Honeycomb has some form of GPU acceleration.

That statement is just a flat out lie(no nice way to say it). The UI on Android devices is modular and can be fully accelerated by the GPU without issue. Before you say that's in theory, mine is fully GPU accelerated running 2.2.

And I wouldn't mind if Google were to put some sort of limit on what could do the acceleration, if it was 'Only 2.2 and higher' or anything like that, but they only have it on 3.0 at this point, and who knows when that that feature will get back-ported to the phones.

The OS version isn't the problem, the GPU used on the phones is the issue. If Google were to force GPU acceleration they are laying down a hard line for what feature set GPUs must have in order to support a certain revision of the OS. Given that Android is gaining significant ground in emerging markets forcing a higher end GPU as a base requirement of their devices wouldn't be the best way to promote the platform in any reasonable sense.

So it took the Linux desktop, with many large companies like Novell and Redhat employing guys (who are talented in this area) full time for the project, 3 years to get a working composite desktop. I expect Android to take about the same amount of time- 3+ years.

They must have started in '08 then ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ts40L50LMpo&feature=related

People say that Apple overemphasizes Form over Function, which they hold as a mark against them. And I agree to a point that they do often put Form ahead of Function. I just imagine what they could cram into their systems if they weren't quite so obsessed with having the thinnest and lightest (think 15hr battery in the iPad).

When I am not using my silverware, I keep it in a drawer. When my kids aren't playing games on their consoles, they put them on a rack(or the toys in a toybox). Is that a functional issue? No, quite the contrary. It is really a form issue as having everything thrown about all over just looks sloppy and careless, like how you would expect a four year old to keep his room if his parents didn't make him clean it up, or just like Apple's UI design. A lot of people emphasize how Apple focuses on form over function, I think a big part of their problem is that their form is in no uncertain terms is terrible. You could absolutely level the exact same argument about Android devices, the difference being your Android device can overwhelmingly be set to look how you want it to. If you want all of your icons thrown all over your screen like a four year old with control over his room, you can have it.

Sloppy and clunky, as if a four year old designed it. You may have the type of four year old who takes his time making his toys look interesting and artistic as they are spread all over his floor, but at the end of the day, it's still just a mess. Your child could be the next DaVinci, it's still a mess to me :)

Obviously there are those who like that aspect of their inner child and are quite pleased with how Apple has decided everyone's UI should be, it is becoming increasingly clear that isn't how most people desire it.

Now imagine how few people there are that can effectively do both. So, you need to get a group of artists and a group of engineers and they have to work together.

Or, you have an iron fisted visionary/dictator(depending on your POV) telling you exactly how everything is going to look for everyone.

Android is suffering from the same problem that (in my opinion) Linux suffers from.

I would say it is more apt to say that Android is suffering the same problems that Windows did, just as iOS has the same problems Macs did. The market is playing out almost exactly the same too, honestly it is a bit creepy how close this is to the late 80s in that regard.

Other people make comments about Steve Jobs that are just plain stupid. So many people on this forum act like this man killed their parents.

I assume by your posts you are of the younger generation, so perhaps you really don't know-

When Jobs had his own illegitimate child, also at the age of 23, he too struggled with his responsibilities. For two years, though already wealthy, he denied paternity while Lisa's mother went on welfare. At one point Jobs even swore in a signed court document that he couldn't be Lisa's father because he was "sterile and infertile, and as a result thereof, did not have the physical capacity to procreate a child." He later acknowledged paternity of Lisa, married Laurene Powell, a Stanford MBA, and fathered three more children. Lisa Brennan-Jobs, now 29, graduated from Harvard and is a writer.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/03/02/news/companies/elkind_jobs.fortune/index2.htm

That Steve Jobs is a terrible person isn't something relating to his business practices, the man is a disgusting human being. It's best to leave morality out of any discussion involving Steve Jobs if you want to back him up. That he is a low enough life form to let his child suffer in poverty while he sits on millions honestly shouldn't relate to what he has done as a businessman.
 

TheStu

Moderator<br>Mobile Devices & Gadgets
Moderator
Sep 15, 2004
12,089
45
91
The OS version isn't the problem, the GPU used on the phones is the issue. If Google were to force GPU acceleration they are laying down a hard line for what feature set GPUs must have in order to support a certain revision of the OS. Given that Android is gaining significant ground in emerging markets forcing a higher end GPU as a base requirement of their devices wouldn't be the best way to promote the platform in any reasonable sense.

Alright, I am not sure of the answer on the following 3 questions;
1: Has iOS always been GPU accelerated?
2: Are there any current Android devices with GPUs worse than the first gen iPhone's?
3: Other than 3.0, is there a STOCK version of Android that supports GPU acceleration?

When I am not using my silverware, I keep it in a drawer. When my kids aren't playing games on their consoles, they put them on a rack(or the toys in a toybox). Is that a functional issue? No, quite the contrary. It is really a form issue as having everything thrown about all over just looks sloppy and careless, like how you would expect a four year old to keep his room if his parents didn't make him clean it up, or just like Apple's UI design. A lot of people emphasize how Apple focuses on form over function, I think a big part of their problem is that their form is in no uncertain terms is terrible. You could absolutely level the exact same argument about Android devices, the difference being your Android device can overwhelmingly be set to look how you want it to. If you want all of your icons thrown all over your screen like a four year old with control over his room, you can have it.

Sloppy and clunky, as if a four year old designed it. You may have the type of four year old who takes his time making his toys look interesting and artistic as they are spread all over his floor, but at the end of the day, it's still just a mess. Your child could be the next DaVinci, it's still a mess to me :)

Obviously there are those who like that aspect of their inner child and are quite pleased with how Apple has decided everyone's UI should be, it is becoming increasingly clear that isn't how most people desire it.

I disagree. I would argue that Android's success is due to multiple factors, and the customization aspect is probably not that high on the list for the average consumer. Handset choice (keyboard/no keyboard, screen size, things like that) is almost certainly part of it, as is availability on all the national carriers, and lower price on some handsets than the iPhone.

And there are folders and multiple home screens, and it isn't like you have icons overlapping other icons, they are laid out in a grid that you define. You can have as few icons as you want, across a bunch of screens. I agree that it isn't the absolute best method in the world, but I don't think it compares to a 4 year old's messy room.

I would say it is more apt to say that Android is suffering the same problems that Windows did, just as iOS has the same problems Macs did. The market is playing out almost exactly the same too, honestly it is a bit creepy how close this is to the late 80s in that regard.

I said that Android's problem is the same as Linux's in the regard that they both can't get enough of solving clever engineering problems while leaving usability to flounder and die.

You care to clarify the statement that you made that things are playing out the same? I have seen arguments that support and conflict with that statement, because you are definitely not the first to have made it.
 

ChAoTiCpInOy

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2006
6,442
1
81
Alright, I am not sure of the answer on the following 3 questions;
1: Has iOS always been GPU accelerated?
2: Are there any current Android devices with GPUs worse than the first gen iPhone's?
3: Other than 3.0, is there a STOCK version of Android that supports GPU acceleration?

1. Yes, that's why even the original iPhone has silky smooth UI.
3. Nope.

I disagree. I would argue that Android's success is due to multiple factors, and the customization aspect is probably not that high on the list for the average consumer. Handset choice (keyboard/no keyboard, screen size, things like that) is almost certainly part of it, as is availability on all the national carriers, and lower price on some handsets than the iPhone.

Agreed. Customization isn't as big of a deal as people think (except those people who think customization is a big deal).
 

BenSkywalker

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,140
67
91
1: Has iOS always been GPU accelerated?

Yes

2: Are there any current Android devices with GPUs worse than the first gen iPhone's?

This is kind of two parts, the simple answer is yes, there are some very low end Android devices in production. Even if that were not the case, even if we limited it exclusively to the fastest handsets available which are all considerably faster then that, just because a GPU call works correctly on say, an Andreno part, doesn't mean the same call will behave the same way on a PowerVR part without special coding. Then you also have the issue of each GPU has a different driver on each device and even on each device you have multiple versions of Android running which splits the market apart even further. The level of code involved with getting a cross platform piece of software working can be an exponential increase. Even when looking at CPU level performance, do you go for single core 'basic' ARM, FPU/Neon ARM, basic multi core ARM, or FPU/Neon multi core ARM. I guess the best comparison would be when looking at the consoles versus PCs. With the exact same amount of hardware the consoles will always butcher PCs precisely because of these reasons. GPU differences are far more significant then CPU architecture differences, and even then it is a considerable amount.

3: Other than 3.0, is there a STOCK version of Android that supports GPU acceleration?

That is a bit of a trick question, wouldn't you say? What you are asking is does the Nexus line support GPU acceleration, the answer to which is minimal on the S based on that latest build information I have seen. Blur, Sense, TouchWiz- none of those are stock, all of them are more then welcome to add full GPU acceleration if they so wish. SPB normally sells their products to OEMs, none of them bit with Android so they took it straight to the general consumer. Any of the handset makers could have full GPU acceleration for their parts up tomorrow(well, anything with a reasonably powerful GPU) if they wanted to. The software is up and running for anyone to check out, Android has full GPU acceleration available today.

I disagree. I would argue that Android's success is due to multiple factors, and the customization aspect is probably not that high on the list for the average consumer. Handset choice (keyboard/no keyboard, screen size, things like that) is almost certainly part of it, as is availability on all the national carriers, and lower price on some handsets than the iPhone.

All of those factors fall under customization to a degree. Form factors, manufacturers, carriers, all of those options exist because of the way in which Android was built from the ground up both as a piece of software and as a business model.

I agree that it isn't the absolute best method in the world

According to Apple, it is the best method. The big difference between Apple and Google is that Google doesn't try and tell you it is. They say 'here it is, go ahead and rip it apart and build it better, we'll even host the files for you and sell it for you if you want'. It's a different mindset.

I said that Android's problem is the same as Linux's in the regard that they both can't get enough of solving clever engineering problems while leaving usability to flounder and die.

My phone chimes, by unlocking my screen I get the weather report, updated sports scores, real time stock prices and any current texts that have been sent to me- without touching anything after I unlock it. To me, that is usability on an entirely different level then what Apple has on offer. If I want to make my Android phones work like they were an iPhone I can- the inverse isn't remotely close to true. To me, that is a much larger usability issue then even the most performance starved Android parts have running 1.5. Even sites that have been championing the iPhone for years have started to acknowledge it as of now.

You care to clarify the statement that you made that things are playing out the same?

Absolutely. Apple decides to create a new system from the ground up with unheard of polish and simplicity for an emerging market. Google(MS) decides to take a complex piece of software with significant potential and start polishing it enough to make it useable. First versions come out, Apple nigh humiliates the competitor by being vastly superior in almost every respect. Second major version comes out, Apple changes almost nothing besides bumping up the specs a bit, competition still far behind. Third major version comes out, all of the sudden the competition has made enormous strides, still not up to the polish of the Apple counterpart, but the usability has made enormous strides and is a viable alternative. Apple has made some tweaks, and bumped the specs some more, but it is clear they aren't trying to remain competitive and are instead focusing on filling the needs of their loyal customers and only them. By the time the fourth major version rolls around, Apple has been eclipsed by a considerable margin. Apple has refused to innovate and instead just keeps offering minor tweaks and hardware bumps designed to keep their existing customers buying their products. They have shown no interest in making inroads into the broader market, even though they paved the way for that market in the first place.

I would say right at this point this is about where we are. Android is in the Win9x realm. iOS is still more polished, has a more uniform look and feel, has a much higher degree of polish on their typical applications, and is quickly being dwarfed by Android. Android has all the downsides Win9x machines had at the time too, uneven performance, shoddy hardware giving very bad impressions of the platform, sloppy builds all over the place(drivers for Win9x in the early days....ugh).

Up until this point, Apple still had a viable shot at retaking supremacy if not on a marketshare basis, at least on a technological one. But that didn't happen. Up until OSX shipped Mac OS still had manual memory assignment on a per application basis(they hid it well in later builds, but it *always* caused me problems). By the time Apple got their head out of their @ss and moved to a modern OS it was too late. Win2K/WinXP had become a very highly polished OS- perhaps not as pretty as what the Apple loyalists viewed the Mac offering as, but enough so that noone was offended by it and it worked so smoothly with everything, which Mac's didn't, that the Windows dominance was nigh untouchable.

I would say most accurately right now Android is close to the Win95 range, but not quite there(close though). Right now Google is still working out some of the serious issues of their open style architecture, but those issues raw hardware will solve most of(performance related that is). With Honeycomb requiring GPU level acceleration that gives them a base line for which to build upon even if it is limited to the tablet space atm(for another Windows comparison- it is much like Windows NT, and for the record Apple whipped NT's @ss for a while in that market until the got things sorted) and creates another fork. Long term that fork coming back around to the handset(general consumer) market is what Apple needs to fear. If they are not competitive by that point, they have lost any long term oppurtunity.

This is playing out so close to the Windows versus Macintosh battle honestly it is a bit creepy. Even the forking, all done before and each time we have an early Apple win followed by their refusal to make meaningful updates until it was far too late.
 

runawayprisoner

Platinum Member
Apr 2, 2008
2,496
0
76
SPB is a launcher. It doesn't solve issues with other apps that don't support GPU acceleration.

For instance, the stock Android web browser still lacks GPU acceleration.
 

BenSkywalker

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
9,140
67
91
It doesn't solve issues with other apps that don't support GPU acceleration.

Meh, totally forgot about that angle of the Mac/Win wars. Apple demanding that certain design criteria be met drove a large portion of their developer base away as soon as Windows became viable. Same exact type of situation we are starting to see today, thanks for reminding me of this :)

The short sighted way of approaching this is to force devs to do things your way. Works splendidly if you retain dominance in the market.

For instance, the stock Android web browser still lacks GPU acceleration.

I'll have to take your word on that one, I don't even know anyone who uses the built in browser(pretty even split between DolphinHD and Opera).
 

ChAoTiCpInOy

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2006
6,442
1
81
Meh, totally forgot about that angle of the Mac/Win wars. Apple demanding that certain design criteria be met drove a large portion of their developer base away as soon as Windows became viable. Same exact type of situation we are starting to see today, thanks for reminding me of this :)

The short sighted way of approaching this is to force devs to do things your way. Works splendidly if you retain dominance in the market.

You're not seeing a mass exodus of iOS developers to Android even with Android being the dominant marketshare.

Appcelerator-201103-Android-iOS-developer-preference.png


Nielsen-201103-smartphone-market-share.png
 

runawayprisoner

Platinum Member
Apr 2, 2008
2,496
0
76
With iOS, there aren't too many design criterias to be met with regards to GPU acceleration, though. The interface just does it automagically regardless of how you code your app. That's the "draw" of it. You put a list in your app, the list is already GPU-accelerated without you having to specify special flags or initiate contexts or anything of the sort. It just... works. Of course if you start doing things manually, then the interface sort of loses that magical feel, but that's expected.

On Android, it's more manual work, and that's why you don't see many developers implement it, or they do but in their own ways.

I'm fairly confident (99.99&#37;) Dolphin HD has no GPU acceleration. Opera does, though. So does Firefox.

But that's more of an example. There are other things that are in dire need of GPU acceleration. The pull down notification bar for instance. The keyboard also. Screen rotation in many cases. Live Wallpaper as well.

There are just so many things in Android that need acceleration, and not because I'd like to see it smooth, but because having something pause while operating my device is just... bad.

I do prefer my Android phone, though. The phone is the only device in my life now that is not Apple-related. But it's not like I'm completely oblivious to its problems, and would like to see them improved.
 

poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
14,612
318
126

I have played enough with Honeycomb, in half-broken states (a great way to see what is going on underneath) and official states, and I don't think that the entire OS is composite based.

If it was the task switcher would show the actual screens of each app (ala Expose), instead of snapshots. If it was the primary apps (like the browser) would be much smoother, and quite honestly we would see composite rendering bugs now and then. I have an eye for composite bugs, and no OS has ever added composite without introducing bugs, so I assume its not there.

Honeycomb reminds me a lot of the old Enlightenment window manager- it is using very clever software tricks and an absolute minimum of GPU use to make it seem like the interface is composite based but isn't. At best I think it gives us what Launcher Pro gives us- a GPU accelerated launcher. The real break-through is when apps can take advantage of composite.

I think this is part of the reason Honeycomb's source is locked away- examination would reveal it to be clever hack on top of clever hack and that would harm the market for Honeycomb devices.

In fact, I see Honeycomb as the equivalent to early Xorg versions- tons of promise, but nothing compared to what we have today. Lets see if in three years they go from Honeycomb to a truly composite based OS.
 

Glitchny

Diamond Member
Sep 4, 2002
5,679
1
0
If its the original Droid, you don't have a multi touch keyboard. I'm sure you'll get more mistakes than smartphones that do have multi touch keyboards. At least the virtual keyboard anyway.

Dunno what to tell you, was on my Droid, 2.3 keyboard, typed it as instructed, no errors.
 

finbarqs

Diamond Member
Feb 16, 2005
3,617
2
81
i actually feel that the multitouch keyboard makes my EVO lag. When i switch it back to single touch keyboard, it's much better, and lag less!