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What say you? Abortions For or Against?
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Preyhunter
Golden Member
l2c,
It is very similar to being the same thing, but it's not the same thing. Ask people that pass laws for a living, it is all in the wording. 🙂 For example, killing the baby is not illegal, but making a decision that results in the death of an unborn child is. I know that it sounds ridiculous, but laws that govern the societies that we live in are written in the same way. I'm sure that many people here have seen the threads concerning crazy laws that are on the books, I would be willing to bet that some of the laws found in that list are of the same type.
As far as when to say that something is living, why not take the logical approach...once it begins to grow? Non-living things do not grow. Just because something cannot continue to live without a host or assistance does not mean that it is not alive.
It is very similar to being the same thing, but it's not the same thing. Ask people that pass laws for a living, it is all in the wording. 🙂 For example, killing the baby is not illegal, but making a decision that results in the death of an unborn child is. I know that it sounds ridiculous, but laws that govern the societies that we live in are written in the same way. I'm sure that many people here have seen the threads concerning crazy laws that are on the books, I would be willing to bet that some of the laws found in that list are of the same type.
As far as when to say that something is living, why not take the logical approach...once it begins to grow? Non-living things do not grow. Just because something cannot continue to live without a host or assistance does not mean that it is not alive.
I´m for Abortions, its a choice people have to make sometimes. Sometimes people can hardly live as it is and then a baby comes and their lives becomes worse and the babys life becomes far worse, abortion is right here. Sometimes people dont care about birthcontrol and then use abortion as a "birthcontrol" that is totaly wrong.
Abortion should be allowed but they should be monitored.
Abortion should be allowed but they should be monitored.
Blackhawk2
Senior member
Czar that sounds something like this:
Would abortion have helped this man?
Would abortion have helped this man?
Wedesdo--
In a cage or not, apes don't have free will. I don't have any sources on that, but I'm sure it can be found. Apes (as well as other animals) operate based on reaction, which can be (and is) affected by learning.
So while you can teach an ape to wave "hello", it can't "decide" whether or not to wave. If it waves back, it has reacted to that teaching. If it doesn't wave, it hasn't learned to yet. Animal behavior is, for the most part, predictable. That is the difference.
Preyhunter--
I see that your point has to do with wording of laws, but what are the real-world effects of something like what you're proposing? Is it where those who seek abortions are not punished but those who actually have them are? What about abortion practitioners, are they punished? And what kinds of punishments do you suggest?
The problem with your definition of being alive as "growing" is that it isn't applicable once humans complete puberty. We all stop growing by the time we reach our 20s. Are we then "not alive"? See, it's tremendously difficult to nail down a definition. To make it even more complicated, what is really at issue is not when humans become living but when they become sentient.
l2c
In a cage or not, apes don't have free will. I don't have any sources on that, but I'm sure it can be found. Apes (as well as other animals) operate based on reaction, which can be (and is) affected by learning.
So while you can teach an ape to wave "hello", it can't "decide" whether or not to wave. If it waves back, it has reacted to that teaching. If it doesn't wave, it hasn't learned to yet. Animal behavior is, for the most part, predictable. That is the difference.
Preyhunter--
I see that your point has to do with wording of laws, but what are the real-world effects of something like what you're proposing? Is it where those who seek abortions are not punished but those who actually have them are? What about abortion practitioners, are they punished? And what kinds of punishments do you suggest?
The problem with your definition of being alive as "growing" is that it isn't applicable once humans complete puberty. We all stop growing by the time we reach our 20s. Are we then "not alive"? See, it's tremendously difficult to nail down a definition. To make it even more complicated, what is really at issue is not when humans become living but when they become sentient.
l2c
Preyhunter
Golden Member
I will check back in on this thread at a later time. Because I will not be responding to this thread any further today doesn't mean that I tucked tail and ran. If it is still going on when I get to work tomorrow, I'll respond.
The real reason that I am against abortion is because of <gasp> my religious beliefs. I think that all children are a creation of God's and shouldn't be killed because it is convenient for someone. I have, however, tried to make a point that is not based on religion in a manner that a non-believer can understand. If that attempt was successful or not, I do not know. If my religious beliefs cause me to be ridiculed and looked upon poorly, so be it. I think I can handle it. 🙂
The real reason that I am against abortion is because of <gasp> my religious beliefs. I think that all children are a creation of God's and shouldn't be killed because it is convenient for someone. I have, however, tried to make a point that is not based on religion in a manner that a non-believer can understand. If that attempt was successful or not, I do not know. If my religious beliefs cause me to be ridiculed and looked upon poorly, so be it. I think I can handle it. 🙂
Preyhunter--
No one is attacking your religious beliefs (at least not yet). But it would have been better for you (I think) if you'd left that out of the discussion entirely, as it might cause someone to write off your beliefs solely because of your religion.
I am religious too, but my stance on abortion comes from my thinking about it and ebating about it with others, not because someone told me how I should feel about it.
I just don't agree with the notion that humans should take anything at face value--we're capable of fully examining situations before taking up a stance on something. Furthermore, we should never close off from reconsidering any of our convictions. A closed mind is a terrible waste.
But maybe I'm getting off the subject at hand.
l2c
No one is attacking your religious beliefs (at least not yet). But it would have been better for you (I think) if you'd left that out of the discussion entirely, as it might cause someone to write off your beliefs solely because of your religion.
I am religious too, but my stance on abortion comes from my thinking about it and ebating about it with others, not because someone told me how I should feel about it.
I just don't agree with the notion that humans should take anything at face value--we're capable of fully examining situations before taking up a stance on something. Furthermore, we should never close off from reconsidering any of our convictions. A closed mind is a terrible waste.
But maybe I'm getting off the subject at hand.
l2c
fallenoncrack
Banned
Apes????? well.... now that you mention it. heh I think some apes are attractive.
fallenoncrack
Banned
d'oh!
HappyFace
Diamond Member
It should not be legal to kill an unborn baby, no matter what the situation, or who the father is. Who has the right to say that a child should die?! Or that he/she is unfit to live?
Should a rapist be allowed to continue his attacks, on account of choice? Should a killer be let loose, simply because he wanted to kill, and chose to do so? God forbid we stop a murderer from killing, I mean it's his choice isn't it?! :| I hope you see my point. Just because someone has the choice to do something, doesn't make it the right, and moral thing to do.
If a mother doesn't have the resources to take care of a baby, the child should be put up for adoption. There are 1000's of parents waiting in line to adopt.
You might say that the mother has the right to do with her body what she pleases. What happend to a baby's right to live?! The slaughter of defenseless, unborn babies for the sake of convenience is simply murder, and should be a criminal offense punishable by death! We brush this sick, cruel tourture and murder aside, disguising it as "a woman's right to choose".
Where in the constitution does it allow freedom for one person to kill another?! The answer is simple, it's not there. That's because the constitution was set up to protect the citizens of this country, allowing freedom of speech and thought without the fear of persecution for ones belief. The constitution however does not allow one to do whatever cruel act he or she pleases, simply because it's convenient or pleasureble.
Abortion is the unconstitutional murder of defensless human life, and should be stopped right now. Many couples are eagerly waiting for an adoption, a baby to love and care for. Despite this, the world continues the sheding of innocent blood. It's time for Americans to demand change, and to demand that the innocent young be given back their freedom to live!
Should a rapist be allowed to continue his attacks, on account of choice? Should a killer be let loose, simply because he wanted to kill, and chose to do so? God forbid we stop a murderer from killing, I mean it's his choice isn't it?! :| I hope you see my point. Just because someone has the choice to do something, doesn't make it the right, and moral thing to do.
If a mother doesn't have the resources to take care of a baby, the child should be put up for adoption. There are 1000's of parents waiting in line to adopt.
You might say that the mother has the right to do with her body what she pleases. What happend to a baby's right to live?! The slaughter of defenseless, unborn babies for the sake of convenience is simply murder, and should be a criminal offense punishable by death! We brush this sick, cruel tourture and murder aside, disguising it as "a woman's right to choose".
Where in the constitution does it allow freedom for one person to kill another?! The answer is simple, it's not there. That's because the constitution was set up to protect the citizens of this country, allowing freedom of speech and thought without the fear of persecution for ones belief. The constitution however does not allow one to do whatever cruel act he or she pleases, simply because it's convenient or pleasureble.
Abortion is the unconstitutional murder of defensless human life, and should be stopped right now. Many couples are eagerly waiting for an adoption, a baby to love and care for. Despite this, the world continues the sheding of innocent blood. It's time for Americans to demand change, and to demand that the innocent young be given back their freedom to live!
I don't believe that the taking of innocent life is anything more than murder... unless it is directly self-defence... i.e., there is NO possibility that the mother will live if the baby comes full term. That is the ONLY time that I think abortion should be allowed because all people have the right to defend their life.
If some think that taking of innocent life is ok, then I don't understand why they have a problem with people killing abortionists...
Joe
If some think that taking of innocent life is ok, then I don't understand why they have a problem with people killing abortionists...
Joe
NaughtyusMaximus
Diamond Member
Konichiwa, you think in familiar patterns of thought.
HappyFace,
Again, you neglect a very important detail... when does an embryo/fetus become a human life? And how do you go about proving that, and why cannot the scientific community come to any sort of consensus as to when that is?
I believe that to be the central issue here.
l2c
Again, you neglect a very important detail... when does an embryo/fetus become a human life? And how do you go about proving that, and why cannot the scientific community come to any sort of consensus as to when that is?
I believe that to be the central issue here.
l2c
HappyFace
Diamond Member
woodie1: If a person's business involves killing, they should be exposed. If police were to shrug off a murder saying, "Aww, who cares. If the killer wants to kill, that's his business." we'd think them insane and corrupt.
I hope this example helps you better see why I believe abortion is not a matter to be kept private. It should be exposed for what it is, the selfish slaughter of innocent babies.
I hope this example helps you better see why I believe abortion is not a matter to be kept private. It should be exposed for what it is, the selfish slaughter of innocent babies.
i'm a moderate...
I believe in ANTI-ABORTION, HOWEVER, (PLZ UNDERSTAND THAT WORD!), in cases of Rape, incest and 1 other think i can't remember.
however, why should the woman be so cosumed about abortion if they: 1)abstinence (if a minor) 2)have safe sex. then, this whole issue of abortion will not come up.
the topic of abortion is a topic of the end; however, if society can solve the root of the "problem" (a word for my lack of a big vocabulary), then one doesn't need to be so pro choice or pro life.
It always seems abortion is ONLY a WHITE/BLACK issue, there is no grey color. It is either anti abortion or pro choice.
Well, just my 2 cents
Best of luck to everyone,
STatic911
I believe in ANTI-ABORTION, HOWEVER, (PLZ UNDERSTAND THAT WORD!), in cases of Rape, incest and 1 other think i can't remember.
however, why should the woman be so cosumed about abortion if they: 1)abstinence (if a minor) 2)have safe sex. then, this whole issue of abortion will not come up.
the topic of abortion is a topic of the end; however, if society can solve the root of the "problem" (a word for my lack of a big vocabulary), then one doesn't need to be so pro choice or pro life.
It always seems abortion is ONLY a WHITE/BLACK issue, there is no grey color. It is either anti abortion or pro choice.
Well, just my 2 cents
Best of luck to everyone,
STatic911
HappyFace
Diamond Member
luv2chill: If I were hunting, and saw something in the distance but couldn't make it out, would it be sane for me to shoot at it? Of course not, it might be another hunter or a ranger!
In the same sense, if you're unsure whether or not a fetus is a child, what justifies killing it? It's been proven that the fertilized egg will become a baby within 9 months. From the very first day, genetic code forms and has information concerning the baby's looks and intelligence... I believe that it's a baby from the very first day, but even if it isn't, what sane person can rightly justify stopping that life from it's full potential?
(edited for typo & to better clairify my post)
In the same sense, if you're unsure whether or not a fetus is a child, what justifies killing it? It's been proven that the fertilized egg will become a baby within 9 months. From the very first day, genetic code forms and has information concerning the baby's looks and intelligence... I believe that it's a baby from the very first day, but even if it isn't, what sane person can rightly justify stopping that life from it's full potential?
(edited for typo & to better clairify my post)
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