What outcome do you think is best?

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Which of these outcomes do you think is best for the country?

  • Romney wins, Dems keep Senate majority

  • Romney wins, Republicans get Senate majority

  • Obama wins, Dems keep Senate majority

  • Obama wins, Republicans get Senate majority


Results are only viewable after voting.

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
I picked a crappy choice because they all are. I oppose all of the above, but considering the expansive reach of government without checks that Obama embraces I pick the first. It seems the best means for gridlock and until some sanity returns to both sides I think that the least damaging. Romney can only do what his party allows and with the Dems in charge of the Senate he's castrated. Likewise anything the Dems slip through like OCare can be shot down.

Pull the fangs of both snakes.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
37,460
33,165
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I picked a crappy choice because they all are. I oppose all of the above, but considering the expansive reach of government without checks that Obama embraces I pick the first. It seems the best means for gridlock and until some sanity returns to both sides I think that the least damaging. Romney can only do what his party allows and with the Dems in charge of the Senate he's castrated. Likewise anything the Dems slip through like OCare can be shot down.

Pull the fangs of both snakes.
Cruise control off a cliff.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
Cruise control off a cliff.

It's better than hitting the gas and heading for it at top speed. We are not dealing with the wise. We are dealing with the petulant and the all-wise legends in their own mind.

Until these children can learn to play together, I don't want them to order others around with their petty and foolish ideas.

They are inferior, and not fit to rule. Better to have them fight among themselves than to them unleash their foolishness by force of law. That goes for the Reps as well as the Dems.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
37,460
33,165
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It's better than hitting the gas and heading for it at top speed. We are not dealing with the wise. We are dealing with the petulant and the all-wise legends in their own mind.

Until these children can learn to play together, I don't want them to order others around with their petty and foolish ideas.

They are inferior, and not fit to rule. Better to have them fight among themselves than to them unleash their foolishness by force of law. That goes for the Reps as well as the Dems.
Dems reaching across the aisle got you NAFTA and the repeal of Glass-Steagall. We need to get us some more of that!
 

Gunslinger08

Lifer
Nov 18, 2001
13,234
2
81
Note: I'm not an economist. This is entirely opinion based on what knowledge I think I have.

Doesn't really matter. The issue is that nobody will really fix the problems. Our problems aren't social or foreign policy related - we can get along just fine arguing over those for the next hundred years. Our problems are fiscal. We just can't afford low tax rates and high spending with slumping GDP growth. It seems like all of the current suggestions are attempting to kickstart GDP growth, but what if that doesn't work? Our economy is enormous and has a massive amount of inertia. So we've got solutions from both sides that basically mortgage future prosperity for potential current fixes that just don't seem to work - increased spending or tax cuts. I'm not an economist, but I'd think that after a while you need to restore some balance to the equation. If you can't effectively manage the right side of the equation by modifying just one variable, you need to take more control. You could drastically raise tax rates to cover the deficit and pay down the principal of the national debt. You could drastically cut spending to accomplish the same thing. Neither of these is going to happen, because you don't get re-elected by taking more of people's money or killing jobs that depend on federal spending. Just look at the huge blowback from proposed defense spending cuts - we don't have the $500 billion to spend, but you get a ton of outrage because the general public doesn't actually care about the longterm wellbeing of the country. They just want the most money possible in their pocket now, and I don't blame them. You're never going to cut 50% out of the budget without dropping a ton of jobs. You're never going to raise tax revenues 50% without also dropping a ton of jobs. Nobody wants to compromise either, which means we'll eventually reach the point where our government can't pay debts and continue funding all of our existing programs. At that point, people will be forced to make a decision:
1. Default on debt servicing payments in order to fund programs. Credit rating drops immediately meaning we basically don't get any more cheap debt. Budget will almost be forced to be balanced going forward. World probably stops using dollar for international currency. Imports may go up considerably in relative price.
2. Print a bunch of extra money to cover the deficit. This results in inflation. Government probably locks down prices domestically at this time to prevent inflation on home grown products/services, but world also stops using dollar for international currency and imports go up considerably in relative price.
3. We actually fix the problem by raising tax revenues and cutting spending.

3 is almost certain to not happen - people don't suddenly get less selfish when faced with dire circumstances. So we probably become cut off from imports from most the world and jobs that were outsourced for cost reasons may come back to the US, as it becomes relatively cheaper to pay an American than 3rd worlder. Did I really just talk myself into thinking this might be a good thing?
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,808
83
91
Obama wins and Dems keep the Senate... but shortly thereafter, Obama, Biden, Boehner, and Daniel Inouye all die in freak accidents, leaving Clinton as President.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
Dems reaching across the aisle got you NAFTA and the repeal of Glass-Steagall. We need to get us some more of that!

You got us Obamacare and a punishment tax to force people to do what the government has no direct authority to authorize. You open the door for Romney and Ryan to use this for their purpose and will go to further extremes to get your way to make people do as you want, then when the other side does take power you'll hand them the keys to the kingdom and cry how the right abuses the Constitution.

A right given is never returned, a liberty taken is free for all to abuse. Neither the Dems or Republican thralls remember this, but you can bet the farm the powers in both parties drool for such things when it's their turn. The sheep crave the protection of their favored wolf.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
37,460
33,165
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You got us Obamacare and a punishment tax to force people to do what the government has no direct authority to authorize. You open the door for Romney and Ryan to use this for their purpose and will go to further extremes to get your way to make people do as you want, then when the other side does take power you'll hand them the keys to the kingdom and cry how the right abuses the Constitution.

A right given is never returned, a liberty taken is free for all to abuse. Neither the Dems or Republican thralls remember this, but you can bet the farm the powers in both parties drool for such things when it's their turn. The sheep crave the protection of their favored wolf.
Ah yes another example of Dems reaching across the aisle. The individual mandate. So you agree with me then? Or are you going with "Republicans opposed their own idea since a Dem was adopting it so it is no longer a Republican idea"?
 
Nov 30, 2006
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Dems reaching across the aisle got you NAFTA and the repeal of Glass-Steagall. We need to get us some more of that!
And Republicans reaching across the aisle got you GATT 1994. Both parties are culpable my friend.
 
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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
37,460
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And Republicans reaching across the aisle got you GATT. Both parties are culpable my friend.
You had to go back to 1946 to find an example? Surely you can find something more recent. I don't even know if GATT qualifies as an example of Reps reaching out to Dems... :confused:
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
Ah yes another example of Dems reaching across the aisle. The individual mandate. So you agree with me then? Or are you going with "Republicans opposed their own idea since a Dem was adopting it so it is no longer a Republican idea"?

I don't care about Republicans and Democrat ideas. I care about ideas, how well they are formulated, and examined and carried out. Let me translate into words how your statement reads to me.

"Yes another example of Dems reaching across the aisle. A poorly understood issue, crafted in ignorance and forced on people whether it's good or not. Or are you arguing that Republicans don't embrace foolishness which they created, and we took up to foist on people?"

How about "Republicans have bad ideas. Why do you not want them now."

Or "We don't understand much, but we want it. The Republicans were the first to not have a clue, and so you object to our not getting it because they were first?"

That's the key. Neither side does what is necessary with complex issues. They and theirs think they are capable, but they aren't and act all surprised and blame the other party for inherent failings if the other party hadn't meddled. This will be the basis for a national health care system btw. Maybe we should prevent gridlock to make this happen sooner.

Your party does not have the answers. None do. They could, but it would involve surrendering some control during the process to the good of the people but to the detriment of themselves by tacitly admitting they are not all things to all people.

To you- which is most important? Doing things the best way or the Party way? They are not the same, and I will bet you cannot come up with a better specific method of creating health care policy which keeps all control up front by the Democratic party than I have proposed elsewhere. Show that politics will play not part. You will fail.
 

Nemesis 1

Lifer
Dec 30, 2006
11,366
2
0
I couldn't vote even tho I am voting for obummer . I think both will put us in 3rd world like conditions . So I preferr Obummer be that man
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
9
81
Only the Democrats that live in conservative's heads.

Right now. Currently. Today. Democrats say we have to spend trillions of dollars that we don't have to save the economy. That's called deficit spending and it's at the core of Keynesian economics. Government spends to make up the difference in reduced private spending.

When Bush came into office, the economy was on the way down. Tax cuts and additional government spending was deficit spending. Exactly what the Democrats say we have to do now.

You don't even understand the things you advocate.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
I picked Romney wins, Dems keep Senate majority. Ive always believed a split between executive and congressional is the best scenario. I normally wouldnt object to a Dem POTUS and a GOP controlled congress, but in this case, Obama has to go. We cant afford another 4 years.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
37,460
33,165
136
I don't care about Republicans and Democrat ideas. I care about ideas, how well they are formulated, and examined and carried out. Let me translate into words how your statement reads to me.

"Yes another example of Dems reaching across the aisle. A poorly understood issue, crafted in ignorance and forced on people whether it's good or not. Or are you arguing that Republicans don't embrace foolishness which they created, and we took up to foist on people?"
I don't think it was poorly thought out. ER has to treat everyone whether they have insurance or not, as it should be. It just follows naturally that we need to make sure as many people have health insurance as possible. Do you have a better idea?



How about "Republicans have bad ideas. Why do you not want them now."

Or "We don't understand much, but we want it. The Republicans were the first to not have a clue, and so you object to our not getting it because they were first?"

That's the key. Neither side does what is necessary with complex issues. They and theirs think they are capable, but they aren't and act all surprised and blame the other party for inherent failings if the other party hadn't meddled. This will be the basis for a national health care system btw. Maybe we should prevent gridlock to make this happen sooner.
I would never claim that all Republican ideas are bad. Just offering examples of times when Dems reached across the aisle under pressure to "work with the other team," those ideas turned out to be detrimental, and surprise surprise, Dems are blamed for them. How many times have you seen righties blame Clinton for NAFTA and repeal of GS in here? The two biggest examples of Democrat "failure" in the past 30+ years are Republican legislation. The biggest objection to Obamacare is the individual mandate. Again, Republican idea.



Your party does not have the answers. None do. They could, but it would involve surrendering some control during the process to the good of the people but to the detriment of themselves by tacitly admitting they are not all things to all people.

To you- which is most important? Doing things the best way or the Party way? They are not the same, and I will bet you cannot come up with a better specific method of creating health care policy which keeps all control up front by the Democratic party than I have proposed elsewhere. Show that politics will play not part. You will fail.
I disagree with the bolded. I think investing heavily in cutting edge technology and education is needed. I think investment in infrastructure is needed. I think foreign aid is necessary to speed up the process of raising third world countries up so there isn't ANY cheap labor to exploit anywhere.
 
Nov 30, 2006
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The WTO? What's wrong with the WTO?

How is the WTO an example of Reps reaching across the aisle to Dems?
GATT fundamentally changed our economy. Clinton pushed GATT through Congress. Republicans were accomplices to the crime.

Here's a speech Sir James Goldsmith gave at the Senate back in 1994 warning Americans about this treaty. Yes...it's a little long, but well worth your time.

Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PQrz8F0dBI

Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZTzPmn-87w&feature=relmfu

Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_hiEvTNV5k&feature=relmfu

Part 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yonUgZ2Y6Qs&feature=relmfu

Part 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW6KkF6aa_A&feature=relmfu

Part 6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDxufaKZLjc&feature=relmfu
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
I don't think it was poorly thought out. ER has to treat everyone whether they have insurance or not, as it should be. It just follows naturally that we need to make sure as many people have health insurance as possible. Do you have a better idea?

I have a number of ideas, but I don't know what is best because I do not have all the resources, the proper people, and the time to do a proper job. I know what health care is, and it's not Obamacare. What you have done is fixed a mechanism which does nothing but create an impediment to reform because once a thing takes hold it becomes entrenched in bureaucracy. Show me a major program undone of this magnitude in the last three decades.

Why it does not look bad to you is that you don't know what you are looking at. Tell me that what is happening with companies opting out of covering insurance was a planned consequence of the ACA. That everyone was supposed to pay more, not less.

If this is "not bad" I'd hate to see what you think is ill considered. Did you read my post elsewhere about how to go about making true reform? Which of your politicians can do better than such a construct? Which has more expertise, which has more time, which has undivided attention to spend?
I would never claim that all Republican ideas are bad. Just offering examples of times when Dems reached across the aisle under pressure to "work with the other team," those ideas turned out to be detrimental, and surprise surprise, Dems are blamed for them. How many times have you seen righties blame Clinton for NAFTA and repeal of GS in here? The two biggest examples of Democrat "failure" in the past 30+ years are Republican legislation. The biggest objection to Obamacare is the individual mandate. Again, Republican idea.

Again you default to partisan solutions and blame. We need answers based on problems WHICH HAVE NO POLITICAL INPUT. What needs to be done is to find solutions, not make hay. You offer craft and guile and gain, claim that Republicans wanted it first, then co-opt foolishness and say that is what is important. It is surely not, unless partisan considerations come first. Then it's a matter of bowing to your wolf, thinking you are one, but you are meat for the table. Neither you, nor the knowledgeable, nor wise men, nor fools have any say unless they are by, of and for the Party. Pick one.

I disagree with the bolded. I think investing heavily in cutting edge technology and education is needed. I think investment in infrastructure is needed. I think foreign aid is necessary to speed up the process of raising third world countries up so there isn't ANY cheap labor to exploit anywhere.
__________________

I think you sincere and of good will. I also think you have not seen enough years, people or places. You speak in generalities. I could say "How do we make health care better" One might reply "improve it" or "we need technology" or "education is good"

If I asked you to design an airplane you might reply "improve on one, add technology, learning about airplanes are good." Ok, now put that on your blueprint and go. Well instead let's have the Democratic party build one. They can draft a 2k document with all the regs and legal language to build a plane. Take that and build one. Why not? Airplane design is far easier than that, in fact almost everything is. Manned Mars mission? Piece of cake. We have all the generalities lined up for that. Merely build a big rocket that flies really fast. Make the equipment so it doesn't break, and make sure the astronauts don't get sick. Done.
That's the approach in a relative sense given to health care reform, which we've had none of. You have come up with a funding mechanism, pronounced it good and that's it. The real issues I'd wager you can't define, and Congress doesn't have the time to learn the most basic things in order to ask the right questions, but a Faith that surpasseth all understanding replaces that which is needed, an atheistic apolitical understanding and solution. Never going to happen. "I have not seen so great a faith, no not in all Israel".
Unacceptable.


As far as labor goes, other markets will always be cheaper because they do not have the standard of living we do. If they had there would be no resources left. Consequently I believe a policy which encourages a return to an economy not so heavily supported by service industries are necessary are needed. A reform of mechanisms to increase board room accountability to a greater number of shareholders, who tend to live in this realm, not those of Romney or Soros or any other billionaire. Real and substantial tax cuts to those who return vital infrastructure to the US, like fabs. The same for companies who do not outsource. A stick for those who do so, coupled with accountability from the "peasant" stockholders would hold corporations more accountable. A system of tariffs which are based on the market as it changes, brought in gradually so not to completely throw off markets. In the meantime we end private exploitation of private lands for energy production. From this moment production is leased out to bidders on a cost plus fee basis, and ALL energy so produced is dumped into our market at that plus a percentage to create new energy sources which do not rely whatsoever on foreign nations. That technology is licensed domestically at no charge. It cannot be hidden by IP. I cannot be held hostage. Foreign nations we are favorably disposed to pay a fee. Other nations more. Any company who deals with a foreign nation or representitive shall be considered to have committed treason, with the maximum penalty as a result. If a Company is a person, then their boards shall be considered the head of that body, and if it's cut off so be it. Yes, rather draconian.

In this way we bring back jobs, eliminate dependence on foreign nations, become a leader in a very important field, hold corporations to a higher standard, force backwards elements in the ME who fund their terror to modernize their thinking. Their oil buys them neither prosperity nor power nor impunity. They must come forward and accept peaceful ways or starve. They will pick the latter, though not easily.

Where is your leader Democrat? Who is the one who speaks with such a plan, a scope of action? Who is the voice of those you consider so wise that they can embrace all that is required and is so wise that can plan without knowledge?

Show me him and his works.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,904
31,433
146
I'm not voting until this guy gets on the ballot

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