What? No government shutdown threads?

[dank69]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrodollar

Hardly new.

I didn't say it was a new word. I asked if it is the new buzzword. Haven't seen it used on this board since I've been here, and now used twice in the last 24 hours.

 

[JTsyo]

You claimed the Senate has not passed a budget and will not negotiate with the House. The Senate passed its own budget in March and Democrats have requested to conference with the House to negotiate out the differences no fewer than 18 times. Senate Republicans filibustered the appointment of conference members and the House repeatedly refused to appoint their own.

Pretty simple, really. The Republicans were never interested in negotiation or compromise, they were interested in trying to force unilateral concessions using a fiscal crisis.

Of course both houses pass their own budgets, otherwise they don't get paid.

 

[fskimospy]

I stand corrected, the Democrat controlled Senate did offer one budget in the past 4 years while completely shirking their duty the other 3 years.

Considering you said earlier:

Anyway, the only tools Republicans have left to force negotiations are the spending bill and debt ceiling. If Senate leadership would do their job in the first place perhaps these bullshit tactics could have been avoided. Plenty of blame to go around in my opinion.

Now that we've established (as per your standard) that the Senate has not only 'done its job', but that the Republicans were the ones refusing to negotiate, how would you amend this argument?

I see the tax increases in the Senate budget submitted last March; however, I must have missed the slashing in programs that you say Obama was requesting. In fact, the Senate budget included $100B in additional "stimulus" spending along with nearly a trillion dollars in tax increases! Dems say that their budget has $975 billion in "revenue increases" that are "matched" by spending cuts and interest savings. But here's the rub...the Senate budget actually reversed $1T in previously agreed to spending cuts and somehow did not account for this effective increase in spending using their highly creative "math". Democrats are being outrageously dishonest with their doublespeak.

Tax and spend...tax and spend...tax and spend...the Democrat's solution to everything. Republicans have had enough of this incessant bullshit and I don't blame them for being mad as hell.

Wow, you don't like the contents of the Senate budget. Who cares.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Considering you said earlier:

Now that we've established (as per your standard) that the Senate has not only 'done its job', but that the Republicans were the ones refusing to negotiate, how would you amend this argument?.

I conceded that they provided one budget in the last 4 years...did you not see that? Based on this, I believe they should have made an effort to reconcile. But I will stand by my comment that there's plenty of blame to go around.

Wow, you don't like the contents of the Senate budget. Who cares.

Yes...I don't think their TAX and SPEND budget is responsible. But I especially don't like their dishonest rhetoric and willful intent to deceive the public regarding the true nature of their budget. They are NOT matching tax increases with spending cuts...they want to increase taxes roughly $1T without any net spending cuts.

 

[TerryMathews]

I conceded that they provided one budget in the last 4 years...did you not see that? Based on this, I believe they should have made an effort to reconcile. But I will stand by my comment that there's plenty of blame to go around.


Yes...I don't think their TAX and SPEND budget is responsible. But I especially don't like their dishonest rhetoric and willful intent to deceive the public regarding the true nature of their budget. They are NOT matching tax increases with spending cuts...they want to increase taxes roughly $1T without any net spending cuts.

The difference between you and Eskimo is that (s)he isn't capable of conceding anything.

I expect any moment now we'll get a lecture on how you don't ever negotiate using either the integrity of the global economy or the full faith and credit of the USA.

 

[Paul98]

What do the republicans want and what are they willing to give?

 

[Juddog]

What do the republicans want and what are they willing to give?

They want to be on the giving end of buttsecks, but won't even offer up lube as a give.

Who else besides a complete conservatard would look at defaulting the entire country to go against helping out the poor as a good thing?

They must keep the poor oppressed while propping up their rich overlords (Koch / Murdoch). Too bad the conservatard mindset is too stupid to realize they're doing something that will harm themselves in the process, but heck - GO AMURIKA! AMIRITE?

 

[ivwshane]

Tax and spend...tax and spend...tax and spend...the Democrat's solution to everything. Republicans have had enough of this incessant bullshit and I don't blame them for being mad as hell.

Of course you don't, that's because you are tool as evident by the fact that you weren't even aware of a senate passed budget that happened months ago! I wonder what else you think hasn't or has happened that shapes your political views? The way I see it is that in a lot of discussions you have to be told or explained something that has happened and it usually invalidates your arguement.

If on the off chance you are interested in the truth and not being used by the right as just another mouth spreading their lies, I'd suggest finding some new news sources.

 

[Hugo Drax]

Corpses of US soldiers piling up in freezers as death benefits are denied to family members by the GOP shutdown.

 

[brandonb]

They want to be on the giving end of buttsecks, but won't even offer up lube as a give.

Who else besides a complete conservatard would look at defaulting the entire country to go against helping out the poor as a good thing?

They must keep the poor oppressed while propping up their rich overlords (Koch / Murdoch). Too bad the conservatard mindset is too stupid to realize they're doing something that will harm themselves in the process, but heck - GO AMURIKA! AMIRITE?

This "conservatard" wants resolution and bills passed and get the country going again. Maybe I'm just a conservative instead of conservatard. Not sure I know what the difference is? Can you help?

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Of course you don't, that's because you are tool as evident by the fact that you weren't even aware of a senate passed budget that happened months ago! I wonder what else you think hasn't or has happened that shapes your political views? The way I see it is that in a lot of discussions you have to be told or explained something that has happened and it usually invalidates your arguement.

If on the off chance you are interested in the truth and not being used by the right as just another mouth spreading their lies, I'd suggest finding some new news sources.

It's pretty obvious that I'm not nearly bright as you are. As such, I would appreciate some patience and a little civilty if you would be so gracious. Or would you rather sling shit back and forth? Your call.

 

[TerryMathews]

This "conservatard" wants resolution and bills passed and get the country going again. Maybe I'm just a conservative instead of conservatard. Not sure I know what the difference is? Can you help?

A conservatard is the opposite of an abortionista.

 

[ivwshane]

It's pretty obvious that I'm not nearly bright as you are. As such, I would appreciate some patience and a little civilty if you would be so gracious. Or would you rather sling shit back and forth? Your call.

Then I'd suggest when posting your opinion you post them in the form of a question

 

[ivwshane]

This "conservatard" wants resolution and bills passed and get the country going again. Maybe I'm just a conservative instead of conservatard. Not sure I know what the difference is? Can you help?

Wow! I thought conservatives went extinct? May I suggest procreating by loudly spreading your conservative message and calling out bullshit on your conservatard kin?

 

[fskimospy]

I conceded that they provided one budget in the last 4 years...did you not see that? Based on this, I believe they should have made an effort to reconcile. But I will stand by my comment that there's plenty of blame to go around.

You missed my point. Since they didn't make an effort to reconcile, do you think that their actions in regards to the budget and the debt ceiling are acceptable and/or good policy? You appeared to be saying before that they were a last resort to bring the Democrats to the negotiating table. Now that we know the Republicans were the ones refusing to negotiate, that seems moot.

Yes...I don't think their TAX and SPEND budget is responsible. But I especially don't like their dishonest rhetoric and willful intent to deceive the public regarding the true nature of their budget. They are NOT matching tax increases with spending cuts...they want to increase taxes roughly $1T without any net spending cuts.

And the Ryan budget repeals the ACA without repealing any of the taxes for it, claiming to not raise taxes while accepting hundreds of billions of them in a law it claims to get rid of. They are both show pieces and they are both dishonest.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

You missed my point. Since they didn't make an effort to reconcile, do you think that their actions in regards to the budget and the debt ceiling are acceptable and/or good policy? You appeared to be saying before that they were a last resort to bring the Democrats to the negotiating table. Now that we know the Republicans were the ones refusing to negotiate, that seems moot.

And I think you missed my point...I completely agree with you. Republicans are obligated to reconcile budgets in my opinion and I don't understand their refusal to do so. However, this in no way gives the Democrats a pass for their abuses of the budget process. Both have blood on their hands as far as I'm concerned.

And the Ryan budget repeals the ACA without repealing any of the taxes for it, claiming to not raise taxes while accepting hundreds of billions of them in a law it claims to get rid of. They are both show pieces and they are both dishonest.

I really don't appreciate dishonesty from either party....I guess I'm funny that way.

 

[ivwshane]

And I think you missed my point...I completely agree with you. Republicans are obligated to reconcile budgets in my opinion and I don't understand their refusal to do so. However, this in no way gives the Democrats a pass for their abuses of the budget process. Both have blood on their hands as far as I'm concerned.


I really don't appreciate dishonesty from either party....I guess I'm funny that way.

You just don't recognize when the repubilicans are being dishonest to you

Republicans have had enough of this incessant bullshit and I don't blame them for being mad as hell.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

You just don't recognize when the repubilicans are being dishonest to you

Nope...you're on to me...just too stupid.

 

[First]

The derp is strong with many P&N members here. No doubt they'd fold like cheap lawn chairs when confronted face-to-face in any academic setting on these fiscal and monetary issues. Meh.

 

[dbk]

Was Obama correct when he stated that raising the debt ceiling would not increase the debt?? That jumped out at me.. Was it just Obama using semantics?

 

[First]

Was Obama correct when he stated that raising the debt ceiling would not increase the debt?? That jumped out at me.. Was it just Obama using semantics?

Technically, since the debt ceiling could be $50T and that fact would not encourage us from accumulating more debt. Only a grand bargain with sensible, non-extremists will fix any of the long-term debt problems.

 

[IGBT]

you think it's bad now watch what the slithering slime ball obama does in the last few months of office.

 

[Fern]

Was Obama correct when he stated that raising the debt ceiling would not increase the debt?? That jumped out at me.. Was it just Obama using semantics?

No, he's flat out incorrect as the only reason raising the debt limit is necessary is to INCREASE the amount of national debt.

Fern

 

[fskimospy]

No, he's flat out incorrect as the only reason raising the debt limit is necessary is to INCREASE the amount of national debt.

Fern

Not really. If you borrow $100 from the bank you are $100 in debt, right? What if I go to the mechanic and he services my car and it costs $100? Until I have paid him I am $100 in debt to him as well.

The US has already incurred these financial obligations in the form of appropriations bills. They are legal debts that the US owes, they just aren't debts that take the form of Treasury securities.

Obama is 100%, irrefutably correct that our debts are the same regardless of the debt limit.

 

[ivwshane]

Was Obama correct when he stated that raising the debt ceiling would not increase the debt?? That jumped out at me.. Was it just Obama using semantics?

The act of raising the debt ceiling is simply allowing the treasury to pay our bills. It's like getting a credit card bill in the mail and having to ask your mom if it's ok if you pay it. Unless your mother is an idiot she will tell you to pay the bill everytime you ask.

If you want to reduce government spending you do it when you are actually doing the budget. Using the credit card analogy, you could say we have a shopping problem, the options are to take away the credit card, reduce your spending, or get a higher paying job. Getting rid of the credit card isn't a real option because people are dependent on that spending (ie: social safety nets, federal infrastructure, military, and other government functions). To personalize it, it would be akin to not being able to pay for gas, rent/mortgage, food & clothing, and things like car/house insurance. We certainly could reduce spending but there becomes a point were a too big of a reduction in spending starts cutting into essential items and it isn't enough to get back in the black or break even. We could get a better job, ie increase taxes, but like spending less, it has diminishing returns.

So what's the solution? The best option would be a combination of both spending cuts and revenue increases.

BUT!

None of that changes the fact that you still need to pay your credit card bill. If not, not only does your credit rating get reduced and it becomes harder for you to get new credit, but it also causes higher interest rates which means your existing bills become even more expensive causing you to be in even more debt.