What makes McCain a hero?

[Xavier434]

I believe in giving credit where credit is due and some of McCain's military past may very well earn him the hero title in my book (not sure). However, being a military hero does make one qualified to be President. It does not mean he will do a good job and make this country a better place to live for the majority of America and that's the bottom line. It is a nice perk, but it takes so much more than that.

 

[KGB]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
What do we really know about John McCain and why doesn't the press investigate. He spent 5 years or so in close association with Communists and terrorists. Was he turned as a Soviet spy to become President and refuse to answer the red phone? Was he a victim of Stockholm Syndrome and North Vietnamese sympathizer. We just don't know but we need to know and we need the press to investigate. McCain should have his mental state tested for brainwashing effects. There can be no room for any doubt about the patriotism of a man running for president, especially one not even born and not drawing his first breath of pure fresh pure American air instead of the filthy vapors of some banana republic.

The McChurian Candidate?

 

[thraashman]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn
He married a rich younger woman who owns a beer company, sounds like a hero to me

If you judge heroes according to the tenets of The Man Show ... well then yes, I guess he is.

 

[Doc Savage Fan]

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: Farang
He refused to go before other prisoners and ended up staying another 5 years in prison. I'm not going to give an opinion on it but I think it mostly revolves around that.

As part of that agreement he would have had to say things that his captives wanted said.

Next?

Years or torture have a way of working on a man and you sit there with your high and mighty attitude to minimalize the man on this basis. :disgust:

 

[Stuxnet]

Originally posted by: Doc Savage Fan

Originally posted by: Skoorb

Originally posted by: Farang
He refused to go before other prisoners and ended up staying another 5 years in prison. I'm not going to give an opinion on it but I think it mostly revolves around that.

As part of that agreement he would have had to say things that his captives wanted said.

Next?

Years or torture have a way of working on a man and you sit there with your high and mighty attitude to minimalize the man on this basis. :disgust:

Honestly, anyone who can sit back and say John McCain isn't a hero - not because of what he went through, but because of the decisions he made while he went through it - really isn't worth arguing with.

 

[Robor]

There's no doubt McCain went through hell while imprisoned and IMO it's not fair for us 'armchair QB's' who weren't there to debate the degree it was. I think the real question is how does this relate to qualifications to being POTUS? Being a POW doesn't make you 'know how to win wars'.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Originally posted by: Robor
There's no doubt McCain went through hell while imprisoned and IMO it's not fair for us 'armchair QB's' who weren't there to debate the degree it was. I think the real question is how does this relate to qualifications to being POTUS? Being a POW doesn't make you 'know how to win wars'.

Agree but that's not the question that the OP is asking.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Respect his sacrifices, disagree with him on mostly everything, and lost most of that respect after he tucked his tail between his legs after what dumbya and co. did to him in 2000, and subsequently sucked up to him ceaselessly over the past 8 years.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Originally posted by: Robor
There's no doubt McCain went through hell while imprisoned and IMO it's not fair for us 'armchair QB's' who weren't there to debate the degree it was. I think the real question is how does this relate to qualifications to being POTUS? Being a POW doesn't make you 'know how to win wars'.

Agree but that's not the question that the OP is asking.

Good point. In response to the OP I say McCain's honorable service makes him a hero in my eyes. Some may be more heroic than him but it doesn't mean his service was not heroic in nature. I agree with Rainsford...

This is just sad.

I'm fine with attacking McCain on any number of issues, from his ridiculous choice of VP to his economic policies, but I think there are some things that aren't really fair game...the war record of someone who by all accounts served honorably is one of those things. Democrats should be better than this, I'm fine leaving these poor taste attacks to the Republicans.

:thumbsup:

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: skyking

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper

Originally posted by: idiotekniQues
the guy was a shitty pilot and a drunkard privileged party boy riding on his daddy's coattails.

he is no hero.

1) why was he a shitty pilot?
Given the type of A/C he flew and what his missions were you would expect that a pilot would get hit and the plane could suffer enough damage to not get back

If someone else is responsbile for an error that impacts you, you have no real control.

2) drunkard privileged party boy riding on his daddy's coattails.

Being the son of a Naval officer may have got him into the Academy, but it did not keep in there.

You do not get to be a drunkard party boy in the Naval aviation past the rank of Lt.



Flying A/C in combat has a decent pucker factor, much more than sitting on your cushy living room sofa while playing COD.

I will give any Naval aviator that has landed on a carrier a salute and buy them a beer- they are better than I ever was.


Now if you have evidence to back up your accusation from qualified sources vs gossip rags, then do so. And I will gladly apologize to you for call you a IDIOT.

Is factcheck OK with you, Eaglekeeper?
http://www.factcheck.org/askfa...ive_planes_did_he.html
I did some googling and found a few sites that blathered the crap about him crashing 5 aircraft.
The Navy did commend his piloting skills, but he had some very bad judgement in Spain.
He flew low enough to take down power lines and is very lucky to have survived that. Usually power lines and planes end with mutual destruction.
One of his accidents he claimed was a flameout of some sort, but the Navy concluded it was caused by distraction or fixation in the cockpit and the engine was producing power on impact.

From the website you linked

McCain did lose two Navy aircraft while piloting them. One crash was found to be be McCain's fault, the other due to an engine failure of undetermined cause..

Above does not make a shitty pilot. A shitty pilot is relieved from flying duty

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: Robor
There's no doubt McCain went through hell while imprisoned and IMO it's not fair for us 'armchair QB's' who weren't there to debate the degree it was. I think the real question is how does this relate to qualifications to being POTUS? Being a POW doesn't make you 'know how to win wars'.

Having fought in Vietnam, he probably has a pretty good idea how to lose a war.

 

[mxyzptlk]

From your name and your sig, do you actually fly an F15? That's wicked cool and if so, Consider me jealous.

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper

From the website you linked

McCain did lose two Navy aircraft while piloting them. One crash was found to be be McCain's fault, the other due to an engine failure of undetermined cause..

Above does not make a shitty pilot. A shitty pilot is relieved from flying duty

Maybe something to do his dad being an admiral? If I were running things, one at-fault crash would be enough to ground anybody, but there's probably something (a lot of somethings) I don't know about running an airforce, so.. here's your grain of salt ->.




As far as the OP, I agree.. I've taken little more than a casual glance at McCain's military record, and I don't see anything that would, imo, qualify him for war-hero status. You may consider each and every individual who has ever served his country a hero if you wish, but I believe that diminishes greatly the value of the word itself.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk
From your name and your sig, do you actually fly an F15? That's wicked cool and if so, Consider me jealous.

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper

From the website you linked

McCain did lose two Navy aircraft while piloting them. One crash was found to be be McCain's fault, the other due to an engine failure of undetermined cause..

Above does not make a shitty pilot. A shitty pilot is relieved from flying duty

Maybe something to do his dad being an admiral? If I were running things, one at-fault crash would be enough to ground anybody, but there's probably something (a lot of somethings) I don't know about running an airforce, so.. here's your grain of salt ->.




As far as the OP, I agree.. I've taken little more than a casual glance at McCain's military record, and I don't see anything that would, imo, qualify him for war-hero status. You may consider each and every individual who has ever served his country a hero if you wish, but I believe that diminishes greatly the value of the word itself.

Maybe, you need to do more than make a casual glance of his military record before making an opinion.

 

[nobodyknows]

Doesn't anybody else find it ironic that Dave Mckowen started a thread asking where the swiftboaters are this year? I guess he hasn't seen this thread yet.




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[mxyzptlk]

Originally posted by: Capt Caveman

Maybe, you need to do more than make a casual glance of his military record before making an opinion.

I'm entirely open to the option that I missed something truly remarkable about his record. Feel free to enlighten me.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: nobodyknows
Doesn't anybody else find it ironic that Dave Mckowen started a thread asking where the swiftboaters are this year? I guess he hasn't seen this thread yet.

Are you suggesting Dr Pizza is "Swiftboating" McCain?

404 Swiftboating not found

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: mxyzptlk
From your name and your sig, do you actually fly an F15? That's wicked cool and if so, Consider me jealous.

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper

From the website you linked

McCain did lose two Navy aircraft while piloting them. One crash was found to be be McCain's fault, the other due to an engine failure of undetermined cause..

Above does not make a shitty pilot. A shitty pilot is relieved from flying duty

I was a weapons officer for the Eagle back in the 70's. Worked in advanced R&D

Trained to fly in event of an emergency while we were doing weapons testing. Similar role to that of Goose.

A decent amount of flight hours, both over the Gulf of Mexico and out at Nellis for testing.

 

[mxyzptlk]

yea, that sounds cool. I'm sure the movie really downplayed the importance of the Goose role, but it still looks like a fun ass job!

<-- jealous much!

 

[nobodyknows]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: nobodyknows
Doesn't anybody else find it ironic that Dave Mckowen started a thread asking where the swiftboaters are this year? I guess he hasn't seen this thread yet.

Are you suggesting Dr Pizza is "Swiftboating" McCain?

404 Swiftboating not found

I'm suggesting that everyone who is questioning McCain's status as a bonafide war hero is guilty of swiftboating.

They have become what they supposedly hated. Apparently they are fine with the end justifying the means as long as they favor the end.

 

[skyking]

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper

Originally posted by: skyking

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper

Originally posted by: idiotekniQues
the guy was a shitty pilot and a drunkard privileged party boy riding on his daddy's coattails.

he is no hero.

1) why was he a shitty pilot?
Given the type of A/C he flew and what his missions were you would expect that a pilot would get hit and the plane could suffer enough damage to not get back

If someone else is responsbile for an error that impacts you, you have no real control.

2) drunkard privileged party boy riding on his daddy's coattails.

Being the son of a Naval officer may have got him into the Academy, but it did not keep in there.

You do not get to be a drunkard party boy in the Naval aviation past the rank of Lt.



Flying A/C in combat has a decent pucker factor, much more than sitting on your cushy living room sofa while playing COD.

I will give any Naval aviator that has landed on a carrier a salute and buy them a beer- they are better than I ever was.


Now if you have evidence to back up your accusation from qualified sources vs gossip rags, then do so. And I will gladly apologize to you for call you a IDIOT.

Is factcheck OK with you, Eaglekeeper?
http://www.factcheck.org/askfa...ive_planes_did_he.html
I did some googling and found a few sites that blathered the crap about him crashing 5 aircraft.
The Navy did commend his piloting skills, but he had some very bad judgement in Spain.
He flew low enough to take down power lines and is very lucky to have survived that. Usually power lines and planes end with mutual destruction.
One of his accidents he claimed was a flameout of some sort, but the Navy concluded it was caused by distraction or fixation in the cockpit and the engine was producing power on impact.

From the website you linked

McCain did lose two Navy aircraft while piloting them. One crash was found to be be McCain's fault, the other due to an engine failure of undetermined cause..

Above does not make a shitty pilot. A shitty pilot is relieved from flying duty

Clipping power lines on a joy ride counts as some really stupid ass shit. you forgot to mention that one and it was by far the worst even though it did not result in the loss of the aircraft. It had the potential for a huge crash, and if his father and grandfather had not been admirals it should hav gotten him relieved right then and there.

ANY pilot will tell you that they are ALL guilty of fixation, close calls, etc. I have my PPL, and I can't tell you how many close calls I've had, my instructor has had, fellow pilots have had, etc.

Close calls involving a crash or taking down power lines?

Jbourne77, if you have had close(stupid) calls like that one give up flying, man. Mccain did.

 

[Stuxnet]

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: nobodyknows
Doesn't anybody else find it ironic that Dave Mckowen started a thread asking where the swiftboaters are this year? I guess he hasn't seen this thread yet.

Are you suggesting Dr Pizza is "Swiftboating" McCain?

404 Swiftboating not found

I'm suggesting that everyone who is questioning McCain's status as a bonafide war hero is guilty of swiftboating.

They have become what they supposedly hated. Apparently they are fine with the end justifying the means as long as they favor the end.

Welcome to ATPN. Be prepared to puke.

 

[datalink7]

Originally posted by: mugs

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: mugs
He refused to give information to North Vietnam and was tortured because of it. He accepted intense physical pain rather than giving up information that could have cost the lives of our service men. That's good enough to qualify as a war hero in my book. What more do you want?

:thumbsup:

Not according to the RS article. He gave up military information on his naval fleet after being tortured, and didn't want to leave Hanoi because he knew he risked court martial for what he did. Another POW from that article said that if McCain would have put "Country First", then he would be missing a few limbs or be dead right now.

Dramesi says he has no desire to dishonor McCain's service, but he believes that celebrating the downed pilot's behavior as heroic ? "he wasn't exceptional one way or the other" ? has a corrosive effect on military discipline. "This business of my country before my life?" Dramesi says. "Well, he had that opportunity and failed miserably. If it really were country first, John McCain would probably be walking around without one or two arms or legs ? or he'd be dead."

Once the Vietnamese realized they had captured the man they called the "crown prince," they had every motivation to keep McCain alive. His value as a propaganda tool and bargaining chip was far greater than any military intelligence he could provide, and McCain knew it. "It was hard not to see how pleased the Vietnamese were to have captured an admiral's son," he writes, "and I knew that my father's identity was directly related to my survival." But during the course of his medical treatment, McCain followed through on his offer of military information. Only two weeks after his capture, the North Vietnamese press issued a report ? picked up by The New York Times ? in which McCain was quoted as saying that the war was "moving to the advantage of North Vietnam and the United States appears to be isolated." He also provided the name of his ship, the number of raids he had flown, his squadron number and the target of his final raid.

So... he gave them entirely useless information?

Yeah, no kidding. Sounds like he gave out the kind of information he was trained, by the military, to give out when he couldn't totally resist any longer.

 

[Stuxnet]

Dumb, dumb thread.

 

[robphelan]

Originally posted by: aphex
I agree with some of the above, anyone who serves the country in the Military is a hero IMO.

My wife would disagree that her abusive ex-hubby was a hero.

 

[DrPizza]

Originally posted by: nobodyknows

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: nobodyknows
Doesn't anybody else find it ironic that Dave Mckowen started a thread asking where the swiftboaters are this year? I guess he hasn't seen this thread yet.

Are you suggesting Dr Pizza is "Swiftboating" McCain?

404 Swiftboating not found

I'm suggesting that everyone who is questioning McCain's status as a bonafide war hero is guilty of swiftboating.

They have become what they supposedly hated. Apparently they are fine with the end justifying the means as long as they favor the end.

I certainly didn't start this thread with any intention of trolling - I even asked another moderator if he thought it sounded like trolling, and if so, then I'd be happy to delete it altogether. As far as "questioning McCain's status" - it's part of my nature to question most information given to me. I'm rather analytical sometimes. I didn't accept it at face value, because there's a big difference between calling someone a hero because they served in the armed forces (which some people even in this thread have said that "anyone" who served in the armed forces is a hero in their book) and someone who is a bonafide hero who put it all on the line for some reason. When I attempted to do some fact digging, I found biased anti-McCain site after biased anti-McCain site. (And, someone pointed me to the Rolling Stone article in the other thread.) I figured that of all the places there are on the internet, these forums are among the best places to find a real answer (if you're willing to wade through a some of the posts sometimes.)