What makes McCain a hero?

[Capt Caveman]

nvm

 

[SP33Demon]

He received a bunch of medals for 20 or so bombing runs in Vietnam, even the Rolling Stone article will concede that. However, that is pretty much all he did to be a hero.

 

[JD50]

Originally posted by: mugs
He refused to give information to North Vietnam and was tortured because of it. He accepted intense physical pain rather than giving up information that could have cost the lives of our service men. That's good enough to qualify as a war hero in my book. What more do you want?

:thumbsup:

 

[nobodyknows]

Originally posted by: DrPizza

Originally posted by: mugs
He refused to give information to North Vietnam and was tortured because of it. He accepted intense physical pain rather than giving up information that could have cost the lives of our service men. That's good enough to qualify as a war hero in my book. What more do you want?

From all accounts that I've heard, he broke, like a large number of the other prisoners, and he was also treated a little more softly once they knew who his father was. (geez, and who told them that??)

If your social studies teacher calls him a hero, why don't you ask him/her?

Or are you afraid too?? :laugh:

All of the pow's went through hell and all were tortured until Ho Chi Minh died. Even Obama calls McCain "a genuine American hero".

 

[SP33Demon]

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: mugs
He refused to give information to North Vietnam and was tortured because of it. He accepted intense physical pain rather than giving up information that could have cost the lives of our service men. That's good enough to qualify as a war hero in my book. What more do you want?

:thumbsup:

Not according to the RS article. He gave up military information on his naval fleet after being tortured, and didn't want to leave Hanoi because he knew he risked court martial for what he did. Another POW from that article said that if McCain would have put "Country First", then he would be missing a few limbs or be dead right now.

Dramesi says he has no desire to dishonor McCain's service, but he believes that celebrating the downed pilot's behavior as heroic ? "he wasn't exceptional one way or the other" ? has a corrosive effect on military discipline. "This business of my country before my life?" Dramesi says. "Well, he had that opportunity and failed miserably. If it really were country first, John McCain would probably be walking around without one or two arms or legs ? or he'd be dead."

Once the Vietnamese realized they had captured the man they called the "crown prince," they had every motivation to keep McCain alive. His value as a propaganda tool and bargaining chip was far greater than any military intelligence he could provide, and McCain knew it. "It was hard not to see how pleased the Vietnamese were to have captured an admiral's son," he writes, "and I knew that my father's identity was directly related to my survival." But during the course of his medical treatment, McCain followed through on his offer of military information. Only two weeks after his capture, the North Vietnamese press issued a report ? picked up by The New York Times ? in which McCain was quoted as saying that the war was "moving to the advantage of North Vietnam and the United States appears to be isolated." He also provided the name of his ship, the number of raids he had flown, his squadron number and the target of his final raid.

 

[Lemon law]

As soon as an American aviator was captured in North Vietnam, the whole lot of them were in deep dodo. And maybe quite properly so, no longer could they commit mass murder from the comfort of a cockpit, and suddenly they had to confront the relatives of those that they were killing. Such is the nature and the fortunes of war.

In a class of some 200 fellow American aviators who also got shot down, there is really nothing McCain did to elevate himself above his fellows. But only McCain shamelessly exploited it for political advantage.

Hero no, suffered yes. But did McCain learn a damn thing? I for one think not.

We could compare McCain to a Nelson Mendella, a Nelson Mendella who had most of his life stolen from him by an Apartheid South Africa, and emerged triumphant from prison, with a message of love and not hate. McCain is no Mendella.

 

[ScottyB]

I don't consider people doing their "jobs" heroes. To me, a hero is someone who goes out of their way to help others in need when it is not part of their SOP. Now, I would consider him to be brave, courageous, and stiff-willed.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Originally posted by: ScottyB
I don't consider people doing their "jobs" heroes. To me, a hero is someone who goes out of their way to help others in need when it is not part of their SOP. Now, I would consider him to be brave, courageous, and stiff-willed.

So, a soldier, doctor, police man, fireman, etc can't be heroes?

 

[nageov3t]

Originally posted by: ScottyB
I don't consider people doing their "jobs" heroes. To me, a hero is someone who goes out of their way to help others in need when it is not part of their SOP. Now, I would consider him to be brave, courageous, and stiff-willed.

like risking punishment by creating a splint to help a fellow prisoner's bones to heal?

 

[cwjerome]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Not according to the RS article. He gave up military information on his naval fleet after being tortured, and didn't want to leave Hanoi because he knew he risked court martial for what he did. Another POW from that article said that if McCain would have put "Country First", then he would be missing a few limbs or be dead right now.

Dramesi says he has no desire to dishonor McCain's service, but he believes that celebrating the downed pilot's behavior as heroic ? "he wasn't exceptional one way or the other" ? has a corrosive effect on military discipline. "This business of my country before my life?" Dramesi says. "Well, he had that opportunity and failed miserably. If it really were country first, John McCain would probably be walking around without one or two arms or legs ? or he'd be dead."

Once the Vietnamese realized they had captured the man they called the "crown prince," they had every motivation to keep McCain alive. His value as a propaganda tool and bargaining chip was far greater than any military intelligence he could provide, and McCain knew it. "It was hard not to see how pleased the Vietnamese were to have captured an admiral's son," he writes, "and I knew that my father's identity was directly related to my survival." But during the course of his medical treatment, McCain followed through on his offer of military information. Only two weeks after his capture, the North Vietnamese press issued a report ? picked up by The New York Times ? in which McCain was quoted as saying that the war was "moving to the advantage of North Vietnam and the United States appears to be isolated." He also provided the name of his ship, the number of raids he had flown, his squadron number and the target of his final raid.

There's a reason why the UCMJ was changed after Vietnam. Everyone would cooperate eventually after sufficient torture... or die in the process. Every POW talked, including McCain, to a certain degree. Most were broken, then refused, the broken again and again and again. So what?

Most merely babbled nonsense of little importance or it was totally outdated. There is no evidence to suggest any info given by POWs harmed the interests of the US in any meaningful way. Today, those caught are expected to hold out only until serious harm is demonstrated. Looking at McCain's behavior and what he endured -especially by today's standards- makes be believe he deserves major respect... by all accounts, he conducted himself very honorably in the toughest of conditions.

The term 'hero' is totally subjective and the OP is just trolling. Who cares.

 

[Gonad the Barbarian]

Doing your duty as a soldier and honorably fighting in a war makes one a hero IMO. Enduring captivity as a POW compounds that. McCain at one point was indeed a hero, though he has done his damnedest to chip away at that label over the years.

 

[palehorse]

Speaking as a soldier, I use the word very conservatively. I had this discussion with a friend a few nights ago. AFAIC, there are three ways to earn the title, in no particular order:

1) Give up your life to protect your country, your family, your friends, or a complete stranger.
2) Commit a selfless and courageous act for your country, your family, your friends, or a complete stranger.
3) Incur immeasurable pain and suffering while protecting your country, your family, your friends, or a complete stranger.

Therefore, at least as far as I'm concerned, McCain has rightfully earned the title. Please note that I'm not voting for McCain... but I certainly consider him a hero.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: cwjerome
[
...
and the OP is just trolling. ....

Any evidence that the OP was trolling or has trolled in the past?

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: idiotekniQues
the guy was a shitty pilot and a drunkard privileged party boy riding on his daddy's coattails.

he is no hero.

1) why was he a shitty pilot?
Given the type of A/C he flew and what his missions were you would expect that a pilot would get hit and the plane could suffer enough damage to not get back

If someone else is responsbile for an error that impacts you, you have no real control.

2) drunkard privileged party boy riding on his daddy's coattails.

Being the son of a Naval officer may have got him into the Academy, but it did not keep in there.

You do not get to be a drunkard party boy in the Naval aviation past the rank of Lt.



Flying A/C in combat has a decent pucker factor, much more than sitting on your cushy living room sofa while playing COD.

I will give any Naval aviator that has landed on a carrier a salute and buy them a beer- they are better than I ever was.


Now if you have evidence to back up your accusation from qualified sources vs gossip rags, then do so. And I will gladly apologize to you for call you a IDIOT.

 

[ProfJohn]

He married a rich younger woman who owns a beer company, sounds like a hero to me

 

[Rainsford]

This is just sad.

I'm fine with attacking McCain on any number of issues, from his ridiculous choice of VP to his economic policies, but I think there are some things that aren't really fair game...the war record of someone who by all accounts served honorably is one of those things. Democrats should be better than this, I'm fine leaving these poor taste attacks to the Republicans.

 

[Stuxnet]

McCain is a hero, but he's over-milked it. I'm also tired of him playing the victim all the time. "Obama didn't repudiate this... Obama didn't repudiate that... wah wah wah."

Grow up McCain. Reason #28487 why all of your supporters - me included - jumped ship.

 

[BoomerD]

As a Vietnam Vet myself, I have a great deal of respect for John McCain and his POW status. His actual military flight record is considerably less sterling, but the man DID spend 5+ years in the Hanoi Hilton...and I salute him for that.

HOWEVER, IMO, just serving in the military does NOT make one a hero, nor does spending time as a POW.

IMO, "HERO" is a word that should not be applied lightly. Not every Soldier or Marine killed in Iraq is a hero either, in spite of the media's portrayal of them that way.

This does NOT diminish my great respect for anyone who serves his/her country in uniform, but not all of us are/were hero's because of that service.

 

[BeauJangles]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
What do we really know about John McCain and why doesn't the press investigate. He spent 5 years or so in close association with Communists and terrorists. Was he turned as a Soviet spy to become President and refuse to answer the red phone? Was he a victim of Stockholm Syndrome and North Vietnamese sympathizer. We just don't know but we need to know and we need the press to investigate. McCain should have his mental state tested for brainwashing effects. There can be no room for any doubt about the patriotism of a man running for president, especially one not even born and not drawing his first breath of pure fresh pure American air instead of the filthy vapors of some banana republic.

:thumbsup:

That's the best parody I've read in a while.

 

[mugs]

Originally posted by: SP33Demon

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: mugs
He refused to give information to North Vietnam and was tortured because of it. He accepted intense physical pain rather than giving up information that could have cost the lives of our service men. That's good enough to qualify as a war hero in my book. What more do you want?

:thumbsup:

Not according to the RS article. He gave up military information on his naval fleet after being tortured, and didn't want to leave Hanoi because he knew he risked court martial for what he did. Another POW from that article said that if McCain would have put "Country First", then he would be missing a few limbs or be dead right now.

Dramesi says he has no desire to dishonor McCain's service, but he believes that celebrating the downed pilot's behavior as heroic ? "he wasn't exceptional one way or the other" ? has a corrosive effect on military discipline. "This business of my country before my life?" Dramesi says. "Well, he had that opportunity and failed miserably. If it really were country first, John McCain would probably be walking around without one or two arms or legs ? or he'd be dead."

Once the Vietnamese realized they had captured the man they called the "crown prince," they had every motivation to keep McCain alive. His value as a propaganda tool and bargaining chip was far greater than any military intelligence he could provide, and McCain knew it. "It was hard not to see how pleased the Vietnamese were to have captured an admiral's son," he writes, "and I knew that my father's identity was directly related to my survival." But during the course of his medical treatment, McCain followed through on his offer of military information. Only two weeks after his capture, the North Vietnamese press issued a report ? picked up by The New York Times ? in which McCain was quoted as saying that the war was "moving to the advantage of North Vietnam and the United States appears to be isolated." He also provided the name of his ship, the number of raids he had flown, his squadron number and the target of his final raid.

So... he gave them entirely useless information?

 

[Capt Caveman]

nvm

 

[Stuxnet]

Originally posted by: BeauJangles

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
What do we really know about John McCain and why doesn't the press investigate. He spent 5 years or so in close association with Communists and terrorists. Was he turned as a Soviet spy to become President and refuse to answer the red phone? Was he a victim of Stockholm Syndrome and North Vietnamese sympathizer. We just don't know but we need to know and we need the press to investigate. McCain should have his mental state tested for brainwashing effects. There can be no room for any doubt about the patriotism of a man running for president, especially one not even born and not drawing his first breath of pure fresh pure American air instead of the filthy vapors of some banana republic.

:thumbsup:

That's the best parody I've read in a while.

Then I suggest reading more. A lot more.

 

[Carmen813]

Two words:
Hanoi Hilton.

Anyone who went through that and managed to put together a relatively normal life afterward...well, in my book that's pretty damn heroic.

 

[skyking]

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper

Originally posted by: idiotekniQues
the guy was a shitty pilot and a drunkard privileged party boy riding on his daddy's coattails.

he is no hero.

1) why was he a shitty pilot?
Given the type of A/C he flew and what his missions were you would expect that a pilot would get hit and the plane could suffer enough damage to not get back

If someone else is responsbile for an error that impacts you, you have no real control.

2) drunkard privileged party boy riding on his daddy's coattails.

Being the son of a Naval officer may have got him into the Academy, but it did not keep in there.

You do not get to be a drunkard party boy in the Naval aviation past the rank of Lt.



Flying A/C in combat has a decent pucker factor, much more than sitting on your cushy living room sofa while playing COD.

I will give any Naval aviator that has landed on a carrier a salute and buy them a beer- they are better than I ever was.


Now if you have evidence to back up your accusation from qualified sources vs gossip rags, then do so. And I will gladly apologize to you for call you a IDIOT.

Is factcheck OK with you, Eaglekeeper?
http://www.factcheck.org/askfa...ive_planes_did_he.html
I did some googling and found a few sites that blathered the crap about him crashing 5 aircraft.
The Navy did commend his piloting skills, but he had some very bad judgement in Spain.
He flew low enough to take down power lines and is very lucky to have survived that. Usually power lines and planes end with mutual destruction.
One of his accidents he claimed was a flameout of some sort, but the Navy concluded it was caused by distraction or fixation in the cockpit and the engine was producing power on impact.

 

[Stuxnet]

Originally posted by: skyking

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper

Originally posted by: idiotekniQues
the guy was a shitty pilot and a drunkard privileged party boy riding on his daddy's coattails.

he is no hero.

1) why was he a shitty pilot?
Given the type of A/C he flew and what his missions were you would expect that a pilot would get hit and the plane could suffer enough damage to not get back

If someone else is responsbile for an error that impacts you, you have no real control.

2) drunkard privileged party boy riding on his daddy's coattails.

Being the son of a Naval officer may have got him into the Academy, but it did not keep in there.

You do not get to be a drunkard party boy in the Naval aviation past the rank of Lt.



Flying A/C in combat has a decent pucker factor, much more than sitting on your cushy living room sofa while playing COD.

I will give any Naval aviator that has landed on a carrier a salute and buy them a beer- they are better than I ever was.


Now if you have evidence to back up your accusation from qualified sources vs gossip rags, then do so. And I will gladly apologize to you for call you a IDIOT.

Is factcheck OK with you, Eaglekeeper?
http://www.factcheck.org/askfa...ive_planes_did_he.html
I did some googling and found a few sites that blathered the crap about him crashing 5 aircraft.
The Navy did commend his piloting skills, but he had some very bad judgement in Spain.
He flew low enough to take down power lines and is very lucky to have survived that. Usually power lines and planes end with mutual destruction.
One of his accidents he claimed was a flameout of some sort, but the Navy concluded it was caused by distraction or fixation in the cockpit and the engine was producing power on impact.

ANY pilot will tell you that they are ALL guilty of fixation, close calls, etc. I have my PPL, and I can't tell you how many close calls I've had, my instructor has had, fellow pilots have had, etc.

That doesn't make him a shitty pilot. It makes him human.