What is up with PC Gamer...?

[Sureshot324]

There's this little thing called innovation, although maybe all the media you consume doesn't have it. Obviously every storyline is going to have some overlap. However, You'd be dense if you think all RPGs have as much of a cliched storyline as Dragon Age. Ever play Planescape Torment? Mask of the Betrayer? Deus Ex? The Witcher? Are you going to tell me that those are as cliched as Dragon Age? Even Mass Effect and Baldur's Gate wasn't as bad.

The main quest is pretty cliched but a lot of the subquests have more interesting plot lines. My biggest complaint about the story is probably the main villain. Loghain is pretty generic and boring, and they don't develop him enough with cutscenes as you play. Now Irenicus from BG2, there's a real villain!

 

[allthatisman]

I still get PC Gamer and enjoy reading it. I've been subscribed for more than 10 years. I remember the first issue I picked up was the first time I heard about Homeworld. What was that, '97?

Indeed, they are going through EICs like dirty underwear. The last two were pretty terrible in my opinion, which hopefully is why they only spent like a year in the job. Logan Decker has been around a while though, so maybe he'll help clean it up some.

As for being shills for hyped games, in the last two issues they've given a glowing review of Torchlight and a mediocre (relative to the level of hype) review of MW2. And over the years I can count on 1 hand the amount of times I was disappointed in a game they gave a positive review of, so I'm still pretty happy with them.

I agree totally. I think that they review games fairly balanced and accurate. I DO think that where they go a bit overboard is in the pre-hype that is done on certain games... but honestly it's pretty much stuff we all want to see anyway so whatever.

Logan Decker seems like a gamer like most of us are. Gary seemed like a boss that got his job by not knowing much about the product at hand (we have all had one of those...). I am hoping for good things in the near future, and we will surely know by next month's issue how things are going to turn around, if in fact, they do... I for one, thought that the MW2 review was spot on, right down to the moral issue of the airport mission. As lame by comparison, that MW2 was to MW, I think they could have almost dipped into the high 70s...

 

[Craig234]

blah blah

Ever play Planescape Torment? Mask of the Betrayer? Deus Ex? The Witcher? Are you going to tell me that those are as cliched as Dragon Age? Even Mass Effect and Baldur's Gate wasn't as bad.

Hey, let me take one sentence about Dragon's Age, in common with most RPG's, ignore everything else about the game, and call it cliched.

When called on how I can't tell the difference between 'formula' and 'cliche', I'll try to come up with a handful of the best exceptions, and say, see that proves there's no forumula to the huindreds in the genre.

To answer your question, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Look, I've been playing computer games since they existed, and have probably played more than you have heard of. I understand what you are saying.

I once wrote or considered writing a note about this topic years ago, the issue oh how user perspective can get 'burned out' and one user can see 'cliche' where another doesn't.

You can make almost anything cliche. Take a Beatles' album. "Hey, four guys with drums, guitar and singing putting a bunch of songs each a few minutes on it. How novel. Never been done before."

Or, you can say, wow, look at this and that that they did so well - even if there's little novel but it's done well.

I've even also consdidered making the point that RPG's rely to heavily on 'world faces threat guy saves it' too much as a formula.

The issue as I see it is inflation. The first time you play a game and save a village, wow it's exciting. The next game you save a kingdom, exciting. The next, you save the planet, exiting. Then you save a galaxy.

Where do you go that keeps the gamer not saying 'yawn'.

It's like anything. Take porn. Pictures of ankles and knees used to turn guys on. In the 50's breasts, then airbrushed full nudity then explicit then Hustler with couples a half inch from sex then sex.

Then hot fudge on one-legged midgets. Yawn.

This may not be getting through, but you are the one I think is wrong to attack for 'guy saves the world'. You didnot understnad the point when I said let's make 'Farmer RPG'.

That's not the problem. It's probably the most common plot device. Great if some titles pick variations. It's not required.

There's a lot more to the game than it using the formula.

 

[EvilComputer92]

Hey, let me take one sentence about Dragon's Age, in common with most RPG's, ignore everything else about the game, and call it cliched.

When called on how I can't tell the difference between 'formula' and 'cliche', I'll try to come up with a handful of the best exceptions, and say, see that proves there's no forumula to the huindreds in the genre.

To answer your question, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Look, I've been playing computer games since they existed, and have probably played more than you have heard of. I understand what you are saying.

I once wrote or considered writing a note about this topic years ago, the issue oh how user perspective can get 'burned out' and one user can see 'cliche' where another doesn't.

You can make almost anything cliche. Take a Beatles' album. "Hey, four guys with drums, guitar and singing putting a bunch of songs each a few minutes on it. How novel. Never been done before."

Or, you can say, wow, look at this and that that they did so well - even if there's little novel but it's done well.

I've even also consdidered making the point that RPG's rely to heavily on 'world faces threat guy saves it' too much as a formula.

The issue as I see it is inflation. The first time you play a game and save a village, wow it's exciting. The next game you save a kingdom, exciting. The next, you save the planet, exiting. Then you save a galaxy.

Where do you go that keeps the gamer not saying 'yawn'.

It's like anything. Take porn. Pictures of ankles and knees used to turn guys on. In the 50's breasts, then airbrushed full nudity then explicit then Hustler with couples a half inch from sex then sex.

Then hot fudge on one-legged midgets. Yawn.

This may not be getting through, but you are the one I think is wrong to attack for 'guy saves the world'. You didnot understnad the point when I said let's make 'Farmer RPG'.

That's not the problem. It's probably the most common plot device. Great if some titles pick variations. It's not required.

There's a lot more to the game than it using the formula.

Of course there is lot more to a game than just it's formula. Many great games have a formula that has been used over and over. That's beside the point, because RPGs have a much stronger focus on storyline than other genres like FPS or RTS games.

And User perspective is part of the point. If you've never played a computer RPG before, then Dragon Age could seem pretty innovative. Of course the more you consume of anything, your going to get diminishing utility on it.

After playing every Bioware RPG since Baldur's Gate, it turns from a formula into a cliche.
If you've really played all the games above, then you would know they have a superior storyline to Dragon Age. I'm not saying they had a more detailed world or better sidequests or better characters. Take Deus Ex or Planescape from the above examples. Would they really have the same acclaim if they had a generic Save the world from an ancient threat storyline?

The point is with all the otherwise great things about Dragon Age, including some of the characters that were very much NOT cliched, and an extremely detailed lore, the story was very much so, and the game overall suffers because of it.

Oh and a handy bioware cliche chart. Some of the things on it are strech though, but I still think that Bioware needs some change in formula after all these years.
http://gza.gameriot.com/content/images/orig_320200_1_1257581825.png

 

[Craig234]

Of course there is lot more to a game than just it's formula. Many great games have a formula that has been used over and over. That's beside the point, because RPGs have a much stronger focus on storyline than other genres like FPS or RTS games.

And User perspective is part of the point. If you've never played a computer RPG before, then Dragon Age could seem pretty innovative. Of course the more you consume of anything, your going to get diminishing utility on it.

After playing every Bioware RPG since Baldur's Gate, it turns from a formula into a cliche.
If you've really played all the games above, then you would know they have a superior storyline to Dragon Age. I'm not saying they had a more detailed world or better sidequests or better characters. Take Deus Ex or Planescape from the above examples. Would they really have the same acclaim if they had a generic Save the world from an ancient threat storyline?

The point is with all the otherwise great things about Dragon Age, including some of the characters that were very much NOT cliched, and an extremely detailed lore, the story was very much so, and the game overall suffers because of it.

Oh and a handy bioware cliche chart. Some of the things on it are strech though, but I still think that Bioware needs some change in formula after all these years.
http://gza.gameriot.com/content/images/orig_320200_1_1257581825.png

If you want to say 'Dagone Age was a great game, but I'd rather it had done something more than the normal 'stop the evil conquering the world' plot as the main story. I've got no argument, even if i disagree.

That's just a very reasonable preference you have.

If you say "Dragon Age sucked because it had the stop the evil conquering the world plot", period, I argue.

It'd be trite for me to say "if I wanted story, I'd read a book", but the element of truth to that is that while story is one elemenet of the game, there are others as well. Like graphics, combat, etc.

I don't take much issue with the latest post. You might enjoy different things about the first RPG than the 25th.

It's a little like a movie buff versus a casual viewer - the buff watching the 100th film i a genre might appreciate very differnt qualities the casual buff doesn't even pay attention too, and the casual viewer might enjoy things the buff has seen dozens of times and is sick of. You might get very different reviews of the same movie.

When it gets to that point, you might see what happened with Westerns, where they've gone through everything from from parody (Blazing Saddles, like fantasy gamaes have seen efforts like the 'Sorcerer' Simon series), to a period where they didn't make many westerns, and then there were genre-exploring movies made such as 'Unforgiven' to break some rules, to Brokeback Mountain, to the one with women protagnists (which is a bit analogous to the Steamwork offshoot of fantasy meets guns).

I don't think we're disagreeing much currently.

For what it's worth, I too would like to see RPG's figure out how to do more from the 'evil threatens the world' line. Even the leading source - Lord of the Rings - IMO did a pretty crappy job of it. What exactly COULD Sauron do with that ring, anyway, especially given it was just chopped off his finger when he had it before, and the world was apparently doomed? It was easy enough to say 'oh, the shire will be overrun with orcs', but it wasn't too clear at all.

Give me a game that makes a bite-sized plot fun.

Since I made the porn analogy once, I'll do it again, they still haven't really figured ot how to break out of the 'it's aboiut sex' formula, however they play with the plot.

People thought they'd make a film as good a Gone with the Wind but with sex, and they haven't. The merge is yet to happen.

And RPG's (I guess I better be clear why the analogy was made) are still 'stop the evil taking over the world'.

Ultimately, I think part of the issue is the whole bankrupt 'evil taking over the world' thing. Nazis and terrorists or aliens get old in movies and games. At least Bond made some effort for notable villains.

But for the game mechanic, the real world of 'let's stop evil wall street corruption' doesn't translate as well as 'stop the evil dragon'.

 

[sandorski]

I wipe my ass with TP, not magazines. While gaming magazines are shit, I don't think the paper would be comfortable to use.

All those Magazines get Recycled into TP anyway, why wait for that process?