This whole thread reminds me of the old joke about the Billionaire who meets a very beauiful young woman and aske her if she would spend the night with him for one million dollars.
She replies, "I'd be rather foolish not to."
So he asks if she would spend the night with him for one hundred dollars.
She replies "Certainly not. What kind of a girl do you think i am anyway?"
To which the Billionaire responds, "We've already established that, now were just haggling over the price".
She replies, "I'd be rather foolish not to."
So he asks if she would spend the night with him for one hundred dollars.
She replies "Certainly not. What kind of a girl do you think i am anyway?"
To which the Billionaire responds, "We've already established that, now were just haggling over the price".
Pacifism has virtually nothing to do with the topic under discussion; it's a straw man, like my equating the Iraq war to nuking every country in the middle east.
But I understand it helps people who hold your views have a nice simplistic set of positions based on 'well, we can't surrender to Osama bin Laden, so we HAVE to allow torture'.
Yup, it's perverted (twisted out of normal behaviour). There is another joke about a guy wielding a knife who says: "Don't worry I'm not going to stab you, I'm only going to cut you."
Very simply, if you expose another person to enough 'discomfort' they feel they have to bow to your wishes to make it stop - you have tortured them.
The onus on torture is not on the person being exposed to torture - but on the people using "discomfort" to elicit what they want from a person.
The root of the word TORTURE is Latin TORTURA 'twisting, torment' (from TORQUERE - 'to tiwst'. It doesn't matter if you twist the physical body or the psychology of a person. It is the act of 'twisting' that is the torture. Imo if you are into 'twisting' people you are a pervert.
I remember reading an article about old WWII professional interrogators from a specialty unit. They got their results by simply talking to their captives, they all condemned torture as counterproductive. I would suggest if the US interrogators are so crappy they cannot get results unless with torture, replace them with better ones.
Very simply, if you expose another person to enough 'discomfort' they feel they have to bow to your wishes to make it stop - you have tortured them.
The onus on torture is not on the person being exposed to torture - but on the people using "discomfort" to elicit what they want from a person.
The root of the word TORTURE is Latin TORTURA 'twisting, torment' (from TORQUERE - 'to tiwst'. It doesn't matter if you twist the physical body or the psychology of a person. It is the act of 'twisting' that is the torture. Imo if you are into 'twisting' people you are a pervert.
I remember reading an article about old WWII professional interrogators from a specialty unit. They got their results by simply talking to their captives, they all condemned torture as counterproductive. I would suggest if the US interrogators are so crappy they cannot get results unless with torture, replace them with better ones.
Nitemare
Lifer
- Feb 8, 2001
- 35,466
- 3
- 76
If your children became adults, and were against you in a matter of life and death, would the same approach be adequate to force them to change their position?
Was the suffering needed to get a child to behave comparable to the suffering needed to get a captive to reveal information to his enemy that could get his comrades killed?
Oh, I guess your analogy is ludicrous.
Orignal Earl
Diamond Member
- Oct 27, 2005
- 8,059
- 55
- 86
I disciplined mine a little different
First off, all of them were punished when one misbehaved
Everyone of em was stripped down bareass naked and then I put their hoods on
I always kept the hoods hanging around the house, so they could always see them
Next they knelt in the corner and I yelled out the back door for my neighbor Jeb to bring the dogs over
The kids were terrified of those dobi's lol
Jeb would get the dogs all riles up and bring them over on a couple of leashes and we'd let the dogs get right up close so the kids could feel the heat off em
All in all, the whole thing was over in less then a half hour
Oh, and if a person has Faith in their life, they should also tell the kids they will burn in hell for eternity for the offense
Some of the kids are doing great, one is a Politician and another one is a preacher
blackangst1
Lifer
- Feb 23, 2005
- 22,914
- 2,359
- 126
Orignal Earl
Diamond Member
- Oct 27, 2005
- 8,059
- 55
- 86
blackangst1
Lifer
- Feb 23, 2005
- 22,914
- 2,359
- 126
Yes. None of those cause permanant long term damage. So fuck em.
Oh and these arent pics of your kids and your torture methods at home, which is what I requested.
It was sarcasm in case you didnt notice. Lighten up man.
The President?s Coming-Out Party
BY Scott Horton
Harpers
PUBLISHED December 15, 2007
This has been an important week in the torture debate in America. It has been the week of the President?s coming-out party. Up until this point, torture has been something that ?a few rotten apples? do. When evidence of it erupted in the media, a few grunts were quickly rounded up and scapegoated. Never officers, mind you?after all, they generally knew where the orders came from, and if you prosecuted them, they might just tell.
But this week, a CIA agent, John Kiriakou, appeared, first on ABC News and then in an interview with NBC?s Matt Lauer, and explained just how the system works. When we want to torture someone (and it is torture he said, no one involved with these techniques would ever think anything different), we have to write it up. The team leader of the torture team proposes what torture techniques will be used and when. He sends it to the Deputy Chief of Operations at the CIA. And there it is reviewed by the hierarchy of the Company. Then the proposal is passed to the Justice Department to be reviewed, blessed, and it is passed to the National Security Council in the White House, to be reviewed and approved. The NSC is chaired, of course, by George W. Bush, whose personal authority is invoked for each and every instance of torture authorized. And, according to Kiriakou as well as others, Bush?s answer is never ?no.? He has never found a case where he didn?t find torture was appropriate. Here?s a key piece of the Kiriakou statement:
LAUER: Was the White House involved in that decision?
KIRIAKOU: Absolutely, this isn?t something done willy nilly. It?s not something that an agency officer just wakes up in the morning and decides he?s going to carry out an enhanced technique on a prisoner. This was a policy made at the White House, with concurrence from the National Security Council and Justice Department.
etc.
-----------------------------------
The President is the Rotten Apple in Chief. Arrest Bush and his Rotten Apple gang. I'm sure all the supporters of International Law here agree with me.
BY Scott Horton
Harpers
PUBLISHED December 15, 2007
This has been an important week in the torture debate in America. It has been the week of the President?s coming-out party. Up until this point, torture has been something that ?a few rotten apples? do. When evidence of it erupted in the media, a few grunts were quickly rounded up and scapegoated. Never officers, mind you?after all, they generally knew where the orders came from, and if you prosecuted them, they might just tell.
But this week, a CIA agent, John Kiriakou, appeared, first on ABC News and then in an interview with NBC?s Matt Lauer, and explained just how the system works. When we want to torture someone (and it is torture he said, no one involved with these techniques would ever think anything different), we have to write it up. The team leader of the torture team proposes what torture techniques will be used and when. He sends it to the Deputy Chief of Operations at the CIA. And there it is reviewed by the hierarchy of the Company. Then the proposal is passed to the Justice Department to be reviewed, blessed, and it is passed to the National Security Council in the White House, to be reviewed and approved. The NSC is chaired, of course, by George W. Bush, whose personal authority is invoked for each and every instance of torture authorized. And, according to Kiriakou as well as others, Bush?s answer is never ?no.? He has never found a case where he didn?t find torture was appropriate. Here?s a key piece of the Kiriakou statement:
LAUER: Was the White House involved in that decision?
KIRIAKOU: Absolutely, this isn?t something done willy nilly. It?s not something that an agency officer just wakes up in the morning and decides he?s going to carry out an enhanced technique on a prisoner. This was a policy made at the White House, with concurrence from the National Security Council and Justice Department.
etc.
-----------------------------------
The President is the Rotten Apple in Chief. Arrest Bush and his Rotten Apple gang. I'm sure all the supporters of International Law here agree with me.
QuantumPion
Diamond Member
- Jun 27, 2005
- 6,010
- 1
- 76
That includes pretty much everything including police interrogations, good cop/bad cop, yelling at someone, giving someone 10 cubs of coffee so they have to pee REALLY BAD, rhetorical trickery, etc. I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that these are not torture.
Torture doesn't necessarily have anything to do with extracting information. Torture is simply the infliction of extreme pain or anguish, simple as that. Saddam Hussein tortured his own citizens to frighten his populace into submission. His sons tortured people simply for their own amusement.
I agree that using torture as a means of extracting information is morally wrong and usually doesn't work anyway. That being said, I do not think waterboarding is torture, as it doesn't fit the description of inflicting extreme pain or anguish.
To the poster a few pages back that described waterboarding as pouring water down someone's lungs: waterboarding is pouring water over someones face. The towel or plastic prevents the water from being inhaled. Inhaling water into your lungs, even a small amount, would be fatal. Filling lungs 1/3 full of water would cause instant suffocation. I don't know where you got that description but it was so ludicrous it made me laugh out loud at your ignorance. I think you are confusing waterboarding with Chappaquiddick'ing.
- Dec 21, 2005
- 11,521
- 0
- 76
I believe it's torture simply for the fact that it involves the "threat" or "perception" of imminent death - similar to mock executions or placing a machete on the table - and it took me many years of introspection to finalize that decision, because of the general lack of physical harm involved.
I'm glad I'm not the only one who laughed.
OK, now THAT was big funny! :laugh: But you might have to explain it to some of the younger folks...
UK Guantanamo detainee near suicide after years of torture, doctors warn
By Robert Verkaik, Law Editor
Published: 18 December 2007
The Independent
A British resident being held in Guantanamo Bay may be close to suicide after five years of captivity and torture at the hands of the Americans, the Foreign Secretary David Miliband has been warned in a medical report sent to the Government this week.
The report concludes that Binyam Mohamed, from Kensington, west London, is at the end of his "psychological tether" after guards at the US naval base in Cuba switched off the water supply to his cell when he began spreading his own faeces over the walls. Mr Mohamed is one of at least seven detainees being held at Guantanamo Bay who claim British residency. Three of the men are expected to be reunited with their families before Christmas after the Government successfully negotiated their release. But the Americans have made it clear that Mr Mohamed must remain in detention to face a military tribunal on charges of terrorism.
etc.
-------------------------------
Wohoo, twist them till they break. Then you may get a confession out of them. If it is worth anything as they are insane by then.
By Robert Verkaik, Law Editor
Published: 18 December 2007
The Independent
A British resident being held in Guantanamo Bay may be close to suicide after five years of captivity and torture at the hands of the Americans, the Foreign Secretary David Miliband has been warned in a medical report sent to the Government this week.
The report concludes that Binyam Mohamed, from Kensington, west London, is at the end of his "psychological tether" after guards at the US naval base in Cuba switched off the water supply to his cell when he began spreading his own faeces over the walls. Mr Mohamed is one of at least seven detainees being held at Guantanamo Bay who claim British residency. Three of the men are expected to be reunited with their families before Christmas after the Government successfully negotiated their release. But the Americans have made it clear that Mr Mohamed must remain in detention to face a military tribunal on charges of terrorism.
etc.
-------------------------------
Wohoo, twist them till they break. Then you may get a confession out of them. If it is worth anything as they are insane by then.
- Dec 21, 2005
- 11,521
- 0
- 76
Criminals in U.S. prisons react the same way to confinement, and some are even worse. Are they being "tortured" as well? Should we free any/all prisoners who go crazy in jail?
Wake me up when you have something other than hearsay regarding "physical abuse" and "torture" at Gitmo.
I see nothing wrong with allowing Mr. Muhammed to receive professional counseling from cleared psychologists. I believe any prisoner should have access to proper mental health treatments... but they can receive said treatment right where they are - that is, IN jail.
It is my understanding that we DO have such mental health professionals on-site at Gitmo...
Hence my definition including the phrase about it being enough suffering to overcome the person's ability to refuse to answer.
Yelling at them isn't, IMO, enough to do that; if they have to pee that bad, they can pee their pants. If they reveal info over having to pee, they weren't much wanting to hide it.
There's clearly another line of measures designed to inflict more severe suffering for the purpose of defeating their ability not to answer. That's torture, IMO.
When the US is known for torturing people for their own amusement, that will become relevant to the discussion of US torture practices.
Why you saw a need to mention the broader definition in a thread it's not relevant to, the use of torture for getting info, maybe you can say.
Again I'd go back to my definition, defining 'extreme anguish' instead with 'an attempt to cause enough suffering to overcome the person's ability to refuse to answer'.
Palehorse:
I think some of our jail conditions are inappropriate and should be improved. Clearly the solution generally is to improve conditions rather than free the inmates.
I don't recall seeing any response to my call for much greater videotaping of prisoner interrogations/interactions.
Let's create some accountability, and some protection for the interrogators as well, by videotaping the situations for review by appropriate authorities.
When the evidence is collected for there to be better evidence than hearsay, you can ask for better evidence. Again, this will also protect against false accusations of abuse.
It seems crazy to me not to videotape this, akin to sending off weapons procurers with unlimited funds and no requirement to document what they buy and where it goes.
I've also called for mandatory video cameras on police dashboards for a long time for similar reasons. If technology allowed, put them on the officer's uniform.
It's about reducing problems and protecting the authorities, about reducing the guesswork.
This guy got the 'US treatment' not only in Gitmo according to the article.
Also 'mental health professionals' being part of torture practices is frowned upon by many psychologists. CIA psychologists played a huge part in developing US torture practices.
I know! Cutting the water supply off like the US military is doing! That should cure him. And I doubt Gitmo is like 'any other' US prison for that matter.
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