what is the underlying reason why health care is so expensive?

[xSauronx]

Originally posted by: waggy

Originally posted by: spidey07
Umm, 400 bucks a month for insurnace? Try less than a hundred.

And it's expensive because of poor fat people. And mexicans.

less then a hundred for insurance? BWHAHAHAHAHAHAH on man.

i wish.


for less t hen $100 a month only "insurance" you are going to get will not cover anything.

seriously. im a full time student and got some quotes from NC BCBS a few months ago. the sub-$100 plan was the only thing i could afford (i make maybe $750 a month right now) and was so worthless that I ignored it.

the dental was another joke that didnt seem worth the premium.

 

[eleison]

Originally posted by: Electric Amish

Originally posted by: eleison

Originally posted by: RaiderJ

Originally posted by: HardcoreRobot
govt and insurance middle men have inserted themelves between the patient and providers for even the simplest of procedures and services. they must take their cut from every little thing which necessarily drives up the costs. having this layer of abstraction (taxpayer pays govt, govt pays dr) or (employee pays premium to insurance, insurance pays dr - and in this case even more convoluted due to employer subsidy) prevents the free market from really working, since the middle men are in EVERY transaction they can essentially set the price. prescription drugs are only so expensive bc insurance drives up the price.

as i said in a different thread - health insurance should operate more like home and auto insurance. its cheap, and it covers (INSURES) you in an emergency.

can you imagine filing a claim everytime you replaced your airfilters, changed a light bulb, or cleaned your ducts? what about changing your oil or getting a flat tire? of course not, so why do we tolerate involving insurance in the most basic things of preventive medicine like teeth cleaning, eye exams and physicals? Letting the insurance companies get in between the patient and the provider just jack up costs for everyone. I want peace of mind that if something terrible happens I will be taken care of, but I cringe at the fact my doc is going to have to be fight my insurance to pay for a routine procedure that has been made artificially expensive just to pay off the middleman.

This

This is wrong. If you don't want insurance, you don't have to buy it. Insurance pressures doctors and hospitals to lower their cost. After all, why is it more expensive to go to a doctor when you don't have insurance?

Doctors really _hate_ the HMO's/insurance companies. It really cuts down on their salaries. Don't like the "middle man".. Don't buy insurance.. How much do you think the doctor will charge you? No silly forms to fill.. no claims.. no "layer of abstraction", but yet, how much do you think you will owe the doctor without insurance companies after your visit? $$$$$$$$$

The insurance companies say they will only pay X amount of a doctor bill. The doctor must then write-off the rest of the charge. So, in-turn, the doctor inflates their bill to maximize what the insurance company will pay them. This really screws people without insurance.

So who is the the evil one? The insurance companies trying to lower cost for its members or the Doctors passing the cost to people without insurance?

Also, without insurance companies, what prevents doctors from inflating the bill to everyone?

 

[Squisher]

Originally posted by: spidey07
Umm, 400 bucks a month for insurnace? Try less than a hundred.

And it's expensive because of poor fat people. And mexicans.

There was a study brought forth in the last thread about medical costs stating that fat people actually have less medical costs over their lifetime than thin people. They live short lives that typically end with short lived illnesses whereas thin people at an average tend to live at an average 20 years longer and the illness that causes their death was able to be controlled for years, at substantial expense, before they succumb.

So, let's drop the fat people bogyman.

 

[eleison]

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: eleison

Originally posted by: RichardE
Insurance, sterilization. Equipment needing to be perfect because of Insurance..

You can pretty much link most things to that fact people can sue the doctors/hospitals.

Bed cost XXX amount? Because they have to be perfect due to Insurance. Not to mention more people getting sick/old ect. Hospitals beds cost on average 4k So 100 extra hospital beds and you already exceed the salaries of some doctors. The problem with "the cost of healthcare" is people enjoy soudbites that can turn a 300-400 pages revie into a 1-2 line shot for the nightly news. Healthcare is expensive because of Insurance and doctors!"

Alright, but why?

Until we as a society progress beyond the idea that we need to package everything into a paragraph that can fit onto a memo, newsslot ect, nothing will really change.



To put it another way..


Would you rather take the chance that the machine cleaning your blood might fail out of no where because the hospitals decided to not buy equipment that is expensive yet almost guaranteed to never fail? There are many factors besides "Doctors salaries!" "Insurance!"

With all the money used to purchase "fancy" equipment and to make things "perfect" (e.g., "sterilization"), it would seem that the best place for healthcare would be in the United States.. Surprisingly, its not. There are other places that do a better job for a lot less.

Ah so a few percentage points cheaper would be better for you? Every Health care system has issues, but like I said earlier, everyone trying to package this into a 2-3 line sound bite has no idea really the huge web that health care really encircles. Quality healthcare is expensive, that is not to say it cannot be more efficient, but quality healthcare is expensive.

Sorry to say, but its not a "few percentage points cheaper"...

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: eleison

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: eleison

Originally posted by: RaiderJ

Originally posted by: HardcoreRobot
govt and insurance middle men have inserted themelves between the patient and providers for even the simplest of procedures and services. they must take their cut from every little thing which necessarily drives up the costs. having this layer of abstraction (taxpayer pays govt, govt pays dr) or (employee pays premium to insurance, insurance pays dr - and in this case even more convoluted due to employer subsidy) prevents the free market from really working, since the middle men are in EVERY transaction they can essentially set the price. prescription drugs are only so expensive bc insurance drives up the price.

as i said in a different thread - health insurance should operate more like home and auto insurance. its cheap, and it covers (INSURES) you in an emergency.

can you imagine filing a claim everytime you replaced your airfilters, changed a light bulb, or cleaned your ducts? what about changing your oil or getting a flat tire? of course not, so why do we tolerate involving insurance in the most basic things of preventive medicine like teeth cleaning, eye exams and physicals? Letting the insurance companies get in between the patient and the provider just jack up costs for everyone. I want peace of mind that if something terrible happens I will be taken care of, but I cringe at the fact my doc is going to have to be fight my insurance to pay for a routine procedure that has been made artificially expensive just to pay off the middleman.

This

This is wrong. If you don't want insurance, you don't have to buy it. Insurance pressures doctors and hospitals to lower their cost. After all, why is it more expensive to go to a doctor when you don't have insurance?

Doctors really _hate_ the HMO's/insurance companies. It really cuts down on their salaries. Don't like the "middle man".. Don't buy insurance.. How much do you think the doctor will charge you? No silly forms to fill.. no claims.. no "layer of abstraction", but yet, how much do you think you will owe the doctor without insurance companies after your visit? $$$$$$$$$

The better question is are you willing to pay for the specialization and the doctors ability to fix your body without fucking you up.

You want cheaper medical care? Take a discount flight to China and go to the hospitals there. I am sure after flight, a few weeks in a rundown hospital you can get all fixed up and back for less than the American visit would cost.

Or too far?

Head down to a hospital in Mexico, much much cheaper overall. I mean, people just want to save money right?

I'm not sure how China or Mexico rank as health care goes -- and to lazy to look up, but there are many other countries that have better health care than the united states with less cost. Switzerland I think is one.. South africa.. Israel, etc.. IIRC. In these countries, the hospitals are not run down. Most of them will probably easily exceed the quality of the American hospitals.. Remember arguably the best hospital, is not even located in the USA.


Your thinking is outdated. The world is getting smaller and its a fact that other countries have vastly superior healthcare. Even the cost of going to the best Singaporean hospital, will probably be less expensive than your average American hospital, but of course the patient will probably receive superior services.

You sound like a medical personal trying to justify his/her high salary 🙂

As I said, there are many many reasons for why it is so expensive. (Prescriptions drugs being one as well). Sadly, for the US, another big part is the US eats the cost of a lot of expensive research which the rest of the world benefits from but does not need to fund.

As I said again, the attempt to put this in a nice pre-packaged box of soundbite is insane. There are issues obviously, but what we see is this thread is nothing short than a circle jerkfest.

Anyway, There is a lot more to it than what is seen here, I would suggest anyone who wants to write there congressman ect in regards to this do some in-depth research if you truly wish to get things looked at.

 

[Strk]

Originally posted by: FelixDeKat

Originally posted by: Strk

Originally posted by: FelixDeKat
Outrageous salaries of health care workers. An anesthesiologist doesnt need to make $400,000.00 per year, a nurse doesnt need to make $250,000.00 a year and a health administrator doesnt need to make $150,000.00+. Subsidize their educations, immunize them from lawsuits but hold them criminally liable only and have a "healthcare worker appreciation day".

Also cheap meds from Canada.

Fixed. :light:

Nurses make $250k a year?

I always get a kick out of how someone always brings up anesthesiologists though. I almost wonder if people fully understand everything that they do.

Oh, and here's a payscale thingamabobber, for those who are curious.

Nurse Practitioner.

I'm still not seeing $250k

 

[vi edit]

Originally posted by: Strk

Originally posted by: FelixDeKat

Originally posted by: Strk

Originally posted by: FelixDeKat
Outrageous salaries of health care workers. An anesthesiologist doesnt need to make $400,000.00 per year, a nurse doesnt need to make $250,000.00 a year and a health administrator doesnt need to make $150,000.00+. Subsidize their educations, immunize them from lawsuits but hold them criminally liable only and have a "healthcare worker appreciation day".

Also cheap meds from Canada.

Fixed. :light:

Nurses make $250k a year?

I always get a kick out of how someone always brings up anesthesiologists though. I almost wonder if people fully understand everything that they do.

Oh, and here's a payscale thingamabobber, for those who are curious.

Nurse Practitioner.

I'm still not seeing $250k

Yeh, starting salary for an NP is around 65k at our hospitals. The only nurse that's going to make $250k is a CRNA (nurse aenesthetist) and that's only at a few very select places.

 

[shoRunner]

moral hazard

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN

Originally posted by: BrunoPuntzJones
supply/demand

Medical is the most inelastic of all services.
How much will you pay to remain alive?

Yeah I'm just being a shithead. People would pay it regardless of price.

 

[spacejamz]

I swiched from a HMO to a HDHP this year (High deductible health plan)...so now after a visit, I get a bill a few weeks after my doctor visit that reflects the 'negotiated rate between the insurance company and the doctor...they don't tell you the rate as soon as you walk out the door...that's pretty fvcked up if you ask em...

 

[SMOGZINN]

Originally posted by: RichardE
Sadly, for the US, another big part is the US eats the cost of a lot of expensive research which the rest of the world benefits from but does not need to fund.

This is the main reason that nationalized healthcare is broken. The rest of the world touts how great their cheap healthcare is compared to ours while completely ignoring that it was our expensive healthcare that funded almost all the advances they take advantage of. Any major movement to nationalize the US healthcare system will paralyze medical research worldwide.

 

[TallBill]

I pay under $100 each month (per person) for health insurance for the wife and I.

 

[Anubis]

Originally posted by: vi edit

Originally posted by: Strk

Originally posted by: FelixDeKat

Originally posted by: Strk

Originally posted by: FelixDeKat
Outrageous salaries of health care workers. An anesthesiologist doesnt need to make $400,000.00 per year, a nurse doesnt need to make $250,000.00 a year and a health administrator doesnt need to make $150,000.00+. Subsidize their educations, immunize them from lawsuits but hold them criminally liable only and have a "healthcare worker appreciation day".

Also cheap meds from Canada.

Fixed. :light:

Nurses make $250k a year?

I always get a kick out of how someone always brings up anesthesiologists though. I almost wonder if people fully understand everything that they do.

Oh, and here's a payscale thingamabobber, for those who are curious.

Nurse Practitioner.

I'm still not seeing $250k

Yeh, starting salary for an NP is around 65k at our hospitals. The only nurse that's going to make $250k is a CRNA (nurse aenesthetist) and that's only at a few very select places.

The other thing about that list is that those are numbers based of salaried personal, People in private practice make less, also varies a lot by where you are. There has been a steep decline in the number of docs in more rural areas because they cont (cant) pay well.

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: spidey07
I was self employed for a while. Yep, 100 bucks a month for insurance.

Was it GOOD health insurance? Or just the type that kicks in after you've already spent five grand out of pocket?

 

[SMOGZINN]

Originally posted by: spacejamz
I get a bill a few weeks after my doctor visit that reflects the 'negotiated rate between the insurance company and the doctor

This is a major problem with our healthcare system also. The ability for major insurance companies to hold doctors over the barrel and basically demand what ever price the insurance company wants. This requires the doctors to raise their rates tenfold to get the amount they actually need, in the end it is the customers that don?t have insurance that gets screwed. There needs to be a law that says that all customers get charged the same amount and illegalizes the practice of 'discounts' for insurance companies.

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: spidey07
I was self employed for a while. Yep, 100 bucks a month for insurance.

Was it GOOD health insurance? Or just the type that kicks in after you've already spent five grand out of pocket?

If you're po' why would you need more than catastrophic insurance?

 

[Gooberlx2]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: spidey07
I was self employed for a while. Yep, 100 bucks a month for insurance.

Was it GOOD health insurance? Or just the type that kicks in after you've already spent five grand out of pocket?

I actually had to pay for my own insurance when I worked for a company that didn't offer decent insurance (think the crap that wait staff gets)*.

Anyway, it was $120/month for me....but that was because I'm a perfectly healthy individual with no pre-existing conditions and without numerous accidents/injuries in my past.

The insurance was $2000 deductible, with 80/20 for another $6000, so $8000 MOOP. So yeah, pretty much just catastrophic insurance. Sure doc visits and prescriptions were co-pays, but any diagnostic services were all me up to the deductible.

Someone like my wife (migraines, lupus, kidney problems) would either be SOL from pre-existing condition clauses, or it would cost mucho $$$$/month.

*On a side note, I can't believe how shitty the insurance wait staff get is. At my employer it cost $70/month, was only $7k maximum payout per year, which was partitioned in to different services like: preventative at $500, emergency at $3000, diagnostic at $750, prescriptions at $200, etc... I had a co-worker whose ER visit with an MRI and other services left him $16,000 in debt.

 

[GasX]

The fact that insurance is so expensive has a number of follow-on effects. The high cost results in a huge number of uninsured. Many of these people use the emergency room as their primary care. This is the most inefficient use of our system possible. This huge inefficient drain on the system gets paid for by the paying customers (i.e. insurance customers) which drive insurance rates up. Factor in malpractice insurance and you get a really expensive mess.

Subsidize medical education
Subsidize primary care, pre-natal care and pediatric care

These 2 things would greatly improve the system and reduce net costs

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: spidey07
I was self employed for a while. Yep, 100 bucks a month for insurance.

Was it GOOD health insurance? Or just the type that kicks in after you've already spent five grand out of pocket?

If you're po' why would you need more than catastrophic insurance?

Fuck the poor!

 

[Fritzo]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: spidey07
Umm, 400 bucks a month for insurnace? Try less than a hundred.

And it's expensive because of poor fat people. And mexicans.

Less than a hundred, and your employer isn't footing any of the bill?

An HSA could be under $100 if it had like a $5000 deductible.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: spidey07
I was self employed for a while. Yep, 100 bucks a month for insurance.

Was it GOOD health insurance? Or just the type that kicks in after you've already spent five grand out of pocket?

If you're po' why would you need more than catastrophic insurance?

Fuck the poor!

They are already doing that, why do you think there are so many of them?

 

[JS80]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: JS80

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: spidey07
I was self employed for a while. Yep, 100 bucks a month for insurance.

Was it GOOD health insurance? Or just the type that kicks in after you've already spent five grand out of pocket?

If you're po' why would you need more than catastrophic insurance?

Fuck the poor!

The poor fuck themselves.

 

[Gooberlx2]

Originally posted by: GasX
The fact that insurance is so expensive has a number of follow-on effects. The high cost results in a huge number of uninsured. Many of these people use the emergency room as their primary care. This is the most inefficient use of our system possible. This huge inefficient drain on the system gets paid for by the paying customers (i.e. insurance customers) which drive insurance rates up. Factor in malpractice insurance and you get a really expensive mess.

Subsidize medical education
Subsidize primary care, pre-natal care and pediatric care

These 2 things would greatly improve the system and reduce net costs

I think it's a great idea to subsidize primary, pre-natal and pediatric care. It really would cut down on the non-emergency use of ERs. Urgent care centers would definitely help to alleviate too.

 

[AreaCode707]

Originally posted by: BrunoPuntzJones
supply/demand

QFT and to expand.

Supply and demand in health care is more than just the doctor to patient ratio. It would be hypothetically possible to someday produce enough doctors that all patients in the world would be treated. However, the costs for health care still would not go down, even with that particular supply-demand issue handled.

See, we don't demand just treatment from our medical professionals. We demand cures. However, cures do not simply exist for all diseases and conditions. When you have a finite supply and a finite demand it can be met. Healthcare has a finite supply (cures) and an infinite demand (conditions, diseases, illnesses). The overhead costs of healthcare, above and beyond just paying for the salaries, supplies, medications, rent, whatever of the doctors, nurses and hospital, go into research.

Even if we cured everything on the planet and produced enough medical professionals to treat everyone health care costs would still be high. Our human nature isn't content with "a cure for cancer" if it takes three years and is excruciatingly painful, even if it's guaranteed to work. We demand instant fixes in pill form that taste like bubblegum and have no side effects.

Providing us what we want is more than providing existing meds, MRIs, doctor expertise and such. It's working on providing us the meds, MRIs and doctor expertise for tomorrow. That's bloody all expensive. And I would say it is worth it.

 

[MovingTarget]

I blame Nixon. 😛

There really are a lot of reasons including the artificially restricted supply of doctors and medical schools, the high cost and time required to become a doctor, the for-profit motivation of many hospitals and pharmaceutical companies, the current private-insurance system, writeoffs of medical bills for the uninsured, inflated salaries of physicians, etc. etc. etc. It really is a mess.