what is the underlying reason why health care is so expensive?

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Originally posted by: FelixDeKat

Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo

Originally posted by: FelixDeKat
Outrageous salaries of health care workers. An anesthesiologist doesnt need to make $400,000.00 per year, a nurse doesnt need to make $250,000.00 a year and a health administrator doesnt need to make $150,000.00+. Subsidize their educations, immunize them from lawsuits but hold them criminally liable only and have a "healthcare worker appreciation day".

Also cheap meds from Canada.

Fixed. :light:

while we're no this topic, i'll throw in unions (nurses).

Dont throw in unions, throw out unions. They ruin everything.

that's what i meant. get rid of the nurses union.

 

[daishi5]

We get paid an average of 15 cents on the dollar that we bill.

 

[HardcoreRobot]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: HardcoreRobot
govt and insurance middle men have inserted themelves between the patient and providers for even the simplest of procedures and services. they must take their cut from every little thing which necessarily drives up the costs. having this layer of abstraction (taxpayer pays govt, govt pays dr) or (employee pays premium to insurance, insurance pays dr - and in this case even more convoluted due to employer subsidy) prevents the free market from really working, since the middle men are in EVERY transaction they can essentially set the price. prescription drugs are only so expensive bc insurance drives up the price.

except the reality is that insurers have driven down costs by squeezing doctors and hospitals.

if you mean to say insurers are screwing the providers and patients by making it difficult to collect, denying claims, giving them the run around, and artificially manipulating procedure costs, i agree

but the net result is not lower costs, it is just more money in the coffers or just lost in the inefficiencies of giant insurer beaurocracy

 

[ScoobMaster]

I believe one of the largest contributing factors (especially in large cities) are the emergency patients that can't/won't pay a dime. If a homeless/ultra-poor/illegal alien is whisked into ER with life-threatening injuries, our society mandates that they are taken care of immediately (regardless of their ability to pay). Emergency surgery/care is *very* expensive already due to some of the factors listed in this thread already. Now add to them these patients that have no means to pay for the expensive life-saving emergency care they have received. The Hospitals are not going to just "eat" that loss or give it as charity... it is passed on to all of us paying patients (hence the $18 tylenol charges, etc...) In effect we are already subsidizing free care for those who cannot pay (because who wants to be the bastard at the E.R. door going "ummm, does this patient have insurance or the ability to pay? No? Sorry, no ER for you!)

 

[Electric Amish]

Originally posted by: HardcoreRobot
govt and insurance middle men have inserted themelves between the patient and providers for even the simplest of procedures and services. they must take their cut from every little thing which necessarily drives up the costs. having this layer of abstraction (taxpayer pays govt, govt pays dr) or (employee pays premium to insurance, insurance pays dr - and in this case even more convoluted due to employer subsidy) prevents the free market from really working, since the middle men are in EVERY transaction they can essentially set the price. prescription drugs are only so expensive bc insurance drives up the price.

as i said in a different thread - health insurance should operate more like home and auto insurance. its cheap, and it covers (INSURES) you in an emergency.

can you imagine filing a claim everytime you replaced your airfilters, changed a light bulb, or cleaned your ducts? what about changing your oil or getting a flat tire? of course not, so why do we tolerate involving insurance in the most basic things of preventive medicine like teeth cleaning, eye exams and physicals? Letting the insurance companies get in between the patient and the provider just jack up costs for everyone. I want peace of mind that if something terrible happens I will be taken care of, but I cringe at the fact my doc is going to have to be fight my insurance to pay for a routine procedure that has been made artificially expensive just to pay off the middleman.

This....and the malpractice insurance.

 

[eleison]

Originally posted by: sdifox

Originally posted by: eleison
Its the unions (AMA, nurses, etc) that keep the supply of medical personal low and their salaries high. The hardest place to become a medical personal is in the United States. Some people say this is to make sure that US has "qualified" doctors, surgeons, etc. However, study after study finds that the United States does not have the best medical personal. Places where its easier to become a doctor (IIRC, Switzerland, Singapore, etc) have better care. Hence, the barriers are there only to inflate salaries.

If you think USA is hard, try Canada...

Doesn't Canadians also have issues with the lack of doctors? 🙂

 

[spidey07]

Umm, 400 bucks a month for insurnace? Try less than a hundred.

And it's expensive because of poor fat people. And mexicans.

 

[RichardE]

Insurance, sterilization. Equipment needing to be perfect because of Insurance..

You can pretty much link most things to that fact people can sue the doctors/hospitals.

Bed cost XXX amount? Because they have to be perfect due to Insurance. Not to mention more people getting sick/old ect. Hospitals beds cost on average 4k So 100 extra hospital beds and you already exceed the salaries of some doctors. The problem with "the cost of healthcare" is people enjoy soudbites that can turn a 300-400 pages revie into a 1-2 line shot for the nightly news. Healthcare is expensive because of Insurance and doctors!"

Alright, but why?

Until we as a society progress beyond the idea that we need to package everything into a paragraph that can fit onto a memo, newsslot ect, nothing will really change.



To put it another way..


Would you rather take the chance that the machine cleaning your blood might fail out of no where because the hospitals decided to not buy equipment that is expensive yet almost guaranteed to never fail? There are many factors besides "Doctors salaries!" "Insurance!"

 

[Baked]

Fear. The same reason religion works so well.

 

[RaiderJ]

Originally posted by: HardcoreRobot
govt and insurance middle men have inserted themelves between the patient and providers for even the simplest of procedures and services. they must take their cut from every little thing which necessarily drives up the costs. having this layer of abstraction (taxpayer pays govt, govt pays dr) or (employee pays premium to insurance, insurance pays dr - and in this case even more convoluted due to employer subsidy) prevents the free market from really working, since the middle men are in EVERY transaction they can essentially set the price. prescription drugs are only so expensive bc insurance drives up the price.

as i said in a different thread - health insurance should operate more like home and auto insurance. its cheap, and it covers (INSURES) you in an emergency.

can you imagine filing a claim everytime you replaced your airfilters, changed a light bulb, or cleaned your ducts? what about changing your oil or getting a flat tire? of course not, so why do we tolerate involving insurance in the most basic things of preventive medicine like teeth cleaning, eye exams and physicals? Letting the insurance companies get in between the patient and the provider just jack up costs for everyone. I want peace of mind that if something terrible happens I will be taken care of, but I cringe at the fact my doc is going to have to be fight my insurance to pay for a routine procedure that has been made artificially expensive just to pay off the middleman.

This

 

[Fritzo]

Malpractice insurance and pharmacuticals. People are sue happy, and it costs billions of dollars to develop a drug to formula (and to test it's safety to avoid more lawsuits).

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: spidey07
Umm, 400 bucks a month for insurnace? Try less than a hundred.

And it's expensive because of poor fat people. And mexicans.

Less than a hundred, and your employer isn't footing any of the bill?

 

[Strk]

Originally posted by: FelixDeKat
Outrageous salaries of health care workers. An anesthesiologist doesnt need to make $400,000.00 per year, a nurse doesnt need to make $250,000.00 a year and a health administrator doesnt need to make $150,000.00+. Subsidize their educations, immunize them from lawsuits but hold them criminally liable only and have a "healthcare worker appreciation day".

Also cheap meds from Canada.

Fixed. :light:

Nurses make $250k a year?

I always get a kick out of how someone always brings up anesthesiologists though. I almost wonder if people fully understand everything that they do.

Oh, and here's a payscale thingamabobber, for those who are curious.

 

[vi edit]

There isn't one underlying issue. It's a compounded problem of dozens of issues.

If I had to pick just one - you can pretty much trend the "cost" of healthcare with the higher number of people that are covered by health care insureance. The ending of transparency in costs and death of "cash based services" has made most of us oblivious to what services run and frankly we don't care if all we have to pay is a $10 copay for a doctors visit.

It's not the only reason, but it's probably one of the bigger ones.

 

[eleison]

Originally posted by: RaiderJ

Originally posted by: HardcoreRobot
govt and insurance middle men have inserted themelves between the patient and providers for even the simplest of procedures and services. they must take their cut from every little thing which necessarily drives up the costs. having this layer of abstraction (taxpayer pays govt, govt pays dr) or (employee pays premium to insurance, insurance pays dr - and in this case even more convoluted due to employer subsidy) prevents the free market from really working, since the middle men are in EVERY transaction they can essentially set the price. prescription drugs are only so expensive bc insurance drives up the price.

as i said in a different thread - health insurance should operate more like home and auto insurance. its cheap, and it covers (INSURES) you in an emergency.

can you imagine filing a claim everytime you replaced your airfilters, changed a light bulb, or cleaned your ducts? what about changing your oil or getting a flat tire? of course not, so why do we tolerate involving insurance in the most basic things of preventive medicine like teeth cleaning, eye exams and physicals? Letting the insurance companies get in between the patient and the provider just jack up costs for everyone. I want peace of mind that if something terrible happens I will be taken care of, but I cringe at the fact my doc is going to have to be fight my insurance to pay for a routine procedure that has been made artificially expensive just to pay off the middleman.

This

This is wrong. If you don't want insurance, you don't have to buy it. Insurance pressures doctors and hospitals to lower their cost. After all, why is it more expensive to go to a doctor when you don't have insurance?

Doctors really _hate_ the HMO's/insurance companies. It really cuts down on their salaries. Don't like the "middle man".. Don't buy insurance.. How much do you think the doctor will charge you? No silly forms to fill.. no claims.. no "layer of abstraction", but yet, how much do you think you will owe the doctor without insurance companies after your visit? $$$$$$$$$

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: eleison

Originally posted by: RaiderJ

Originally posted by: HardcoreRobot
govt and insurance middle men have inserted themelves between the patient and providers for even the simplest of procedures and services. they must take their cut from every little thing which necessarily drives up the costs. having this layer of abstraction (taxpayer pays govt, govt pays dr) or (employee pays premium to insurance, insurance pays dr - and in this case even more convoluted due to employer subsidy) prevents the free market from really working, since the middle men are in EVERY transaction they can essentially set the price. prescription drugs are only so expensive bc insurance drives up the price.

as i said in a different thread - health insurance should operate more like home and auto insurance. its cheap, and it covers (INSURES) you in an emergency.

can you imagine filing a claim everytime you replaced your airfilters, changed a light bulb, or cleaned your ducts? what about changing your oil or getting a flat tire? of course not, so why do we tolerate involving insurance in the most basic things of preventive medicine like teeth cleaning, eye exams and physicals? Letting the insurance companies get in between the patient and the provider just jack up costs for everyone. I want peace of mind that if something terrible happens I will be taken care of, but I cringe at the fact my doc is going to have to be fight my insurance to pay for a routine procedure that has been made artificially expensive just to pay off the middleman.

This

This is wrong. If you don't want insurance, you don't have to buy it. Insurance pressures doctors and hospitals to lower their cost. After all, why is it more expensive to go to a doctor when you don't have insurance?

Doctors really _hate_ the HMO's/insurance companies. It really cuts down on their salaries. Don't like the "middle man".. Don't buy insurance.. How much do you think the doctor will charge you? No silly forms to fill.. no claims.. no "layer of abstraction", but yet, how much do you think you will owe the doctor without insurance companies after your visit? $$$$$$$$$

The better question is are you willing to pay for the specialization and the doctors ability to fix your body without fucking you up.

You want cheaper medical care? Take a discount flight to China and go to the hospitals there. I am sure after flight, a few weeks in a rundown hospital you can get all fixed up and back for less than the American visit would cost.

Or too far?

Head down to a hospital in Mexico, much much cheaper overall. I mean, people just want to save money right?

 

[Electric Amish]

Originally posted by: eleison

Originally posted by: RaiderJ

Originally posted by: HardcoreRobot
govt and insurance middle men have inserted themelves between the patient and providers for even the simplest of procedures and services. they must take their cut from every little thing which necessarily drives up the costs. having this layer of abstraction (taxpayer pays govt, govt pays dr) or (employee pays premium to insurance, insurance pays dr - and in this case even more convoluted due to employer subsidy) prevents the free market from really working, since the middle men are in EVERY transaction they can essentially set the price. prescription drugs are only so expensive bc insurance drives up the price.

as i said in a different thread - health insurance should operate more like home and auto insurance. its cheap, and it covers (INSURES) you in an emergency.

can you imagine filing a claim everytime you replaced your airfilters, changed a light bulb, or cleaned your ducts? what about changing your oil or getting a flat tire? of course not, so why do we tolerate involving insurance in the most basic things of preventive medicine like teeth cleaning, eye exams and physicals? Letting the insurance companies get in between the patient and the provider just jack up costs for everyone. I want peace of mind that if something terrible happens I will be taken care of, but I cringe at the fact my doc is going to have to be fight my insurance to pay for a routine procedure that has been made artificially expensive just to pay off the middleman.

This

This is wrong. If you don't want insurance, you don't have to buy it. Insurance pressures doctors and hospitals to lower their cost. After all, why is it more expensive to go to a doctor when you don't have insurance?

Doctors really _hate_ the HMO's/insurance companies. It really cuts down on their salaries. Don't like the "middle man".. Don't buy insurance.. How much do you think the doctor will charge you? No silly forms to fill.. no claims.. no "layer of abstraction", but yet, how much do you think you will owe the doctor without insurance companies after your visit? $$$$$$$$$

The insurance companies say they will only pay X amount of a doctor bill. The doctor must then write-off the rest of the charge. So, in-turn, the doctor inflates their bill to maximize what the insurance company will pay them. This really screws people without insurance.

 

[winnar111]

3rd party payers, moral hazard, high salaries for people who deserve it, the cost of new technologies, and the fact that all of the above are somehow accessible to everyone.

Not everyone has a ferrari. Not everyone should get topnotch surgeries and healthcare.

 

[eleison]

Originally posted by: RichardE
Insurance, sterilization. Equipment needing to be perfect because of Insurance..

You can pretty much link most things to that fact people can sue the doctors/hospitals.

Bed cost XXX amount? Because they have to be perfect due to Insurance. Not to mention more people getting sick/old ect. Hospitals beds cost on average 4k So 100 extra hospital beds and you already exceed the salaries of some doctors. The problem with "the cost of healthcare" is people enjoy soudbites that can turn a 300-400 pages revie into a 1-2 line shot for the nightly news. Healthcare is expensive because of Insurance and doctors!"

Alright, but why?

Until we as a society progress beyond the idea that we need to package everything into a paragraph that can fit onto a memo, newsslot ect, nothing will really change.



To put it another way..


Would you rather take the chance that the machine cleaning your blood might fail out of no where because the hospitals decided to not buy equipment that is expensive yet almost guaranteed to never fail? There are many factors besides "Doctors salaries!" "Insurance!"

With all the money used to purchase "fancy" equipment and to make things "perfect" (e.g., "sterilization"), it would seem that the best place for healthcare would be in the United States.. Surprisingly, its not. There are other places that do a better job for a lot less.

 

[SSSnail]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: spidey07
Umm, 400 bucks a month for insurnace? Try less than a hundred.

And it's expensive because of poor fat people. And mexicans.

Less than a hundred, and your employer isn't footing any of the bill?

Ssssshhhhh! Leave spidey alone in his bubble.

 

[waggy]

Originally posted by: spidey07
Umm, 400 bucks a month for insurnace? Try less than a hundred.

And it's expensive because of poor fat people. And mexicans.

less then a hundred for insurance? BWHAHAHAHAHAHAH on man.

i wish.


for less t hen $100 a month only "insurance" you are going to get will not cover anything.

 

[FelixDeCat]

Originally posted by: Strk

Originally posted by: FelixDeKat
Outrageous salaries of health care workers. An anesthesiologist doesnt need to make $400,000.00 per year, a nurse doesnt need to make $250,000.00 a year and a health administrator doesnt need to make $150,000.00+. Subsidize their educations, immunize them from lawsuits but hold them criminally liable only and have a "healthcare worker appreciation day".

Also cheap meds from Canada.

Fixed. :light:

Nurses make $250k a year?

I always get a kick out of how someone always brings up anesthesiologists though. I almost wonder if people fully understand everything that they do.

Oh, and here's a payscale thingamabobber, for those who are curious.

Nurse Practitioner.

 

[eleison]

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: eleison

Originally posted by: RaiderJ

Originally posted by: HardcoreRobot
govt and insurance middle men have inserted themelves between the patient and providers for even the simplest of procedures and services. they must take their cut from every little thing which necessarily drives up the costs. having this layer of abstraction (taxpayer pays govt, govt pays dr) or (employee pays premium to insurance, insurance pays dr - and in this case even more convoluted due to employer subsidy) prevents the free market from really working, since the middle men are in EVERY transaction they can essentially set the price. prescription drugs are only so expensive bc insurance drives up the price.

as i said in a different thread - health insurance should operate more like home and auto insurance. its cheap, and it covers (INSURES) you in an emergency.

can you imagine filing a claim everytime you replaced your airfilters, changed a light bulb, or cleaned your ducts? what about changing your oil or getting a flat tire? of course not, so why do we tolerate involving insurance in the most basic things of preventive medicine like teeth cleaning, eye exams and physicals? Letting the insurance companies get in between the patient and the provider just jack up costs for everyone. I want peace of mind that if something terrible happens I will be taken care of, but I cringe at the fact my doc is going to have to be fight my insurance to pay for a routine procedure that has been made artificially expensive just to pay off the middleman.

This

This is wrong. If you don't want insurance, you don't have to buy it. Insurance pressures doctors and hospitals to lower their cost. After all, why is it more expensive to go to a doctor when you don't have insurance?

Doctors really _hate_ the HMO's/insurance companies. It really cuts down on their salaries. Don't like the "middle man".. Don't buy insurance.. How much do you think the doctor will charge you? No silly forms to fill.. no claims.. no "layer of abstraction", but yet, how much do you think you will owe the doctor without insurance companies after your visit? $$$$$$$$$

The better question is are you willing to pay for the specialization and the doctors ability to fix your body without fucking you up.

You want cheaper medical care? Take a discount flight to China and go to the hospitals there. I am sure after flight, a few weeks in a rundown hospital you can get all fixed up and back for less than the American visit would cost.

Or too far?

Head down to a hospital in Mexico, much much cheaper overall. I mean, people just want to save money right?

I'm not sure how China or Mexico rank as health care goes -- and to lazy to look up, but there are many other countries that have better health care than the united states with less cost. Switzerland I think is one.. South africa.. Israel, etc.. IIRC. In these countries, the hospitals are not run down. Most of them will probably easily exceed the quality of the American hospitals.. Remember arguably the best hospital, is not even located in the USA.


Your thinking is outdated. The world is getting smaller and its a fact that other countries have vastly superior healthcare. Even the cost of going to the best Singaporean hospital, will probably be less expensive than your average American hospital, but of course the patient will probably receive superior services.

You sound like a medical personal trying to justify his/her high salary 🙂

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: eleison

Originally posted by: RichardE
Insurance, sterilization. Equipment needing to be perfect because of Insurance..

You can pretty much link most things to that fact people can sue the doctors/hospitals.

Bed cost XXX amount? Because they have to be perfect due to Insurance. Not to mention more people getting sick/old ect. Hospitals beds cost on average 4k So 100 extra hospital beds and you already exceed the salaries of some doctors. The problem with "the cost of healthcare" is people enjoy soudbites that can turn a 300-400 pages revie into a 1-2 line shot for the nightly news. Healthcare is expensive because of Insurance and doctors!"

Alright, but why?

Until we as a society progress beyond the idea that we need to package everything into a paragraph that can fit onto a memo, newsslot ect, nothing will really change.



To put it another way..


Would you rather take the chance that the machine cleaning your blood might fail out of no where because the hospitals decided to not buy equipment that is expensive yet almost guaranteed to never fail? There are many factors besides "Doctors salaries!" "Insurance!"

With all the money used to purchase "fancy" equipment and to make things "perfect" (e.g., "sterilization"), it would seem that the best place for healthcare would be in the United States.. Surprisingly, its not. There are other places that do a better job for a lot less.

Ah so a few percentage points cheaper would be better for you? Every Health care system has issues, but like I said earlier, everyone trying to package this into a 2-3 line sound bite has no idea really the huge web that health care really encircles. Quality healthcare is expensive, that is not to say it cannot be more efficient, but quality healthcare is expensive.

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: SSSnail

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: spidey07
Umm, 400 bucks a month for insurnace? Try less than a hundred.

And it's expensive because of poor fat people. And mexicans.

Less than a hundred, and your employer isn't footing any of the bill?

Ssssshhhhh! Leave spidey alone in his bubble.

I was self employed for a while. Yep, 100 bucks a month for insurance.