What is the ultimate end of man?

[eia430]

qacwac, you said..

"Here once again the Bible validates itself. 2 Peter 3:16 says "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." The Bible spoke of what you said and warned us to be wary. That strengthens my belief in it."

Now I think you are beginning to understand where I'm coming from. So the Bible is telling you to be weary, even to it's own scriptures. Well then what about the millions of people out there that follow the Bible word for word in a literal sense?? Are they now NOT following the Bible because they ARE following the Bible? This is where I scratch my head and just think, is this particular scripture God's work or not? Then I go by my feelings or pray on it and trust that and not what I read in the Bible.


"Besides the massive amounts of doctrinal differences I have with the Mormom church, they have been very corrupt."

Yes they have had corruption in their past, but do you know what the sad thing is? Compared to the roman catholic church, their corruption is a mole hilll compared to the catholic's mountain. Their church is not stained by the blood of milions of innocents. They have not gone on rampages of killing called crusades. They have not hunted down and killed innocents just because the church's ruling elite deemed them heritics. And anothing thing I respect about them is that they have considerations for other religeons. I have not heard a mormon pastor or otherwise bad mouth any other religeons. Their pastors, janitors, everyone in the church they all volunteer their time and are not paid by the church. They do their services because they believe, not because of a paycheck. They all have their own jobs outside the church. Church activities are all done on a volunteer basis. They use the money given to the church for job programs, helping each other, helping the community. Their churches are utalitarian, just there for function. The catholic church blows money given by the people on themselves. Instead of spending on helping the community the money is blown on more GOLD for the altar, more GOLD on the robes of clergy. Bigger grander stained glass in the churches more ornate this and that. The money is wasted on trivial things rather than helping the people and community. I compare this to embezzelment, the money is not used for it's intended purpose. These are a few of the many things that discust me with my own religeon. The only thing keeping me from joining the Mormon church is a few doctorines that I'm not sure I'm comfortable with.

 

[eia430]

Dirf, you said..

"while evolution seems very plausible, it is hardly hard evidence. i have taken 3 years of college level biology and the almost infinite complexity of life makes me wonder if all this could arrive through "natural causes". i suggest many who are interested in the truth investigate this matter more closely instead of accepting evolution just as blindly as creationist believe in creation."


You are forgetting a few very important things. Everything we know today is from hard work and is based on reality. If the church had it's way we'd all still be in the middle ages, ignorant, with the church ruling every aspect of our lives. Remember the wisdom of the church, if it they don't understand it don't bother trying to understand it. Just write it off as 1 of 2 things, 1. work of the Lord, or 2. work of the devil and just leave it at that. Ever wonder why the power of the church is almost always greater in less educated 3rd world countries and is almost always lesser in educated western countries? I'll spell it out to you, the church thrives on ignorance.

 

[MrPALCO]

<< Ever wonder why the power of the church is almost always greater in less educated 3rd world countries and is almost always lesser in educated western countries? >>



Since when did formal education equal Wisdom?

Formal education is a wonderful thing, when used properly.

However, many of Histories greatest, never finished college. (Bill Gates)

 

[eia430]

Just to be back on track to the thread subject, I will now post what I wanted to post before I got sidetracked by religous issues.

Will there be an or is there and ultimate end of man? Hmm, what is the hardest thing to get rid of on the face of the planet? Bacteria, why are they so hard to get rid of? Because they are everywhere spread over a large area. If we wipe out one colony that area will simply be repopulated by another colony when it is &quot;safe&quot; again. Hence we can never get rid of them. If we make like bacteria and spread into space then I would say that if we spread far enough and wide enough then it would have a good chance at being around forever.

 

[MrPALCO]

Pure Science is wonderful, after all, God created science.

Without adding the multitude of dimensions and realms and powers...a clear picture of Creation will not be found.

A Man in contact with God.. will have all the answers...to every Question that he asks.

When the Time. .. ... .... ..... ...... it is Right.

 

[eia430]

mr palco, are we going to now argue the merrits of being better educated? How about less bloodshed, less theivery, less corruption, less everything that is bad. Most bad things thrive on even depend on ignorance. Using the same line of thought, why is the church (catholic) also stronger in less educated areas? Back when we did not know what caused sickness who are the people that advanced our knowledge as to what bacteria and viruses were? Are they....

1. The people who believed the church when they said sickness was caused by the devil? and just left it at that?

2. The people who didn't believe the church and therefore kept studying the matter till they found the answer?

Which one mrplaco? 1 or 2 ??? Had these people ALL listened to the church we would all still be dying from one disease after another because it was the devil doing that and the best way to fight the devil was to follow the church. So mr palco, if you came down with the bubonic plague which would you much rather have? an exorsism? or a whole lot of antibiotics?

 

[eia430]

mr palco, you said

&quot;Pure Science is wonderful, after all, God created science.&quot;

I will not disagree with you because we are not debating the value of God, but rather the value of church and it's intent. So I will modify your statement in my head to reflect this debate.

The church has ALWAYS fought against science, against reason. When Galileo said that the other planets did NOT revolve around the earth and revolved around the sun what did the church do? They labled him a heritic. For what? because he saw that reality proved the decree of the church wrong. Did the church bother to study his findings? NO. Do you know when the church FINALLY decided to admit that they were only defending their power base and spread a LIE by retracting their decree that Galileo was a heritic? In the late 90's (I'm guessing 97) Why did it take the church what 300-400 years to admit to it's deceit? and then till 97 to admit they were deceitful? Was not sending a man into space and eventualy the moon in the 60's enough proof??? No, I'm sure the church knew about it's deceitful lie not long after the rest of the world accepted Galileo's observations as true. But the church just could not bring itself to admit or even see it's own true nature for hundreds of years.

 

[MrPALCO]

<< So mr palco, if you came down with the bubonic plague which would you much rather have? an exorsism? or a whole lot of antibiotics? >>



I would opt for a covenant of protection which would guarantee that this plague could not touch me or mine.

A plead of The Blood of Jesus...is the answer.

edit...spelling.

 

[eia430]

mrpalco, you said...

&quot;I would opt for a covenant of protection which would guarantee that this plague could not touch me our mine.&quot;


Very slick, I attemted to force you into a position by giving you only two options. Unlike most people you decided to be unpredictable by creating then chosing a third option on your own terms. I'm impressed, all of this while keeping a non-confrontational atmosphere (which provides best chances of acceptance of your concepts and ideas by me). I'm actualy learning from your particular style of debateing. Interesting... but back to the subject at hand.
It would be nice if a covenant of protection could guarantee that a bactirium would not touch you or yours. But we both understand that bacteria knows nothing about covenants. I'm sure pastors in Burundi, Panama, Columbia, etc all have made whatever rituals they need happen to protect themselves from bad elements. But that has done nothing to keep them from being killed raped or killed AND raped. Just how is a covenenat supposed to keep a bactirum at bay when it can't even keep man at bay?

 

[MrPALCO]

<< I attemted to force you into a position by giving you only two options. >>



My life is mine to lay down or to pick up.



<< It would be nice if a covenant of protection could guarantee that a bactirium would not touch you or yours. But we both understand that bacteria knows nothing about covenants. >>



Because God has given you authority, via your words, you have the right to align with death, and reap the result of your position.

I would encourage you to align with the One Who Sits On the Throne That Is White, and reap Life..

 

[eia430]

mrpalco, you said...

&quot;I would encourage you to align with the One Who Sits On the Throne That Is White, and reap Life..&quot;

I already have done that a long time ago and my actions since reflect that. Where I'm at now has nothing to do with God. I'm wading through a cesspool of religeon trying to find one that matches not only my philosophy but also my actions. I'm not interested in hypocritical groups (catholics)that claim aliance with God, but who's actions indicate otherwise. Sure, not all catholics are bad, but they also refuse to depose leaders that have proven themselves to be as far from good as a person gets. Worse yet, catholics(not the only religeon to do this) have a tendency to kill others (who are decreed heretics) at the beck and whim of their religeous leaders. Is this right? is this God's work? It is not the Mormons that attract me, it is the catholics(I'm babtized catholic) that discust and repulse me and drive me away from catholisism.

 

[MrPALCO]

<< Is this right? is this God's work? >>



God said to me a while back...&quot;you know, there are many churches, well known ones, where they still make me sit in the back, and won't listen to a thing I say&quot;

I do not condemn any church...but God intends for me to talk with him, directly, not through another Man..

 

[eia430]

mrpalco, you said..

&quot;I do not condemn any church...but God intends for me to talk with him, directly, not through another Man..&quot;

Well then, I guess we are in agreement. But there are many people out there that spout at me that I will not &quot;be saved&quot; if I don't join their church because &quot;we are the one true way&quot;. I just think it's the biggest injustice in this world that when the church abuses their power that those responsible are almost never brought to justice. The church takes 300-400 years to get up the courage to admit it's mistakes, mistakes where it has not murdered innocents. How long before the church admits to murder? never? The church still refuses to condemn men responsible for those actions, the best the church will do is to admit to &quot;mistakes&quot; Well what about calling those responsible for what they really are? Evil people that were just bent on using the faith in God of others to their own twisted ends. It is the biggest injustice that these people have gotten away with it.

 

[FrontlineWarrior]

toolgirl,
don't get me wrong, if I had to choose between evolution and creation based on the evidence presented, I would probably choose evolution too. I'm just saying that we don't know enough (or as much as we would like to think we do) about evolution to claim is as undeniable universal fact. I think there is a very good case to be made about the role of design in the formation of life. While that design might not be from the God of the Bible, I think there is evidence that probability and chance alone being the driving force of such complexity is a stretch too.

 

[qacwac]

sorry I have missed so much. I had to work till close tonight

to eia430: the Bible warns me to be wary of sinful men twisting scripture, not of it. Big difference.

What do you mean &quot;millions of people out there that follow the Bible word for word in a literal sense&quot; Anyone who follows the Bible word for word would be perfect because that is what it demands, perfection. That is what it tells us to be. So you really believe that millions of people follow the Bible word for word? I hope you meant something different. In answer to what I think you meant. Have you considered what the world would be like if everyone or even millions followed it word for word literally? Yes, I agree that there would be some false teachings about a dragon and a woman from Revelations and some of the other figurative prophetic images but have you looked at it as a whole? Here is what I think. All of the 10 Commandments would never be broken. You would have a society that did there best in everything, not out of competiveness but as to the Lord. There would be no hunger because everyone would work hard. For those that fell upon tough times, everyone would give because they would not be storing up riches on earth but in heaven. Everyone would love their neighbor as their self. Everyone would be dilligently seeking to please to God, love the brethren, and live at peace with all men. (I paraphrase a lot but I trust you have knowledge to know these are in the Bible)
Doesn't sound to bad to me. So it's pretty obvious to me that nobody follows the Bible word for word. Maybe people have tried but nobody has succeeded.

As to your view of the catholic church. You certainly aren't in disagreeance with me. I imagine I think the catholic church much worse than you. (I would like to write some things here but I think I would be undermining myself) I imagine I think of most churches much worse than you do. I think that most of the &quot;churches&quot; (referring to membership and attendance) are an abomination to God and filled with people who are not covered by the blood of Jesus. I was raised in them and spent 19 years being taught partial truths, blatant lies, misinterpreted truths, and a bunch of other stuff that will be burned up as hay and stubble. But God rescued me from that 10 months ago. I was completely lost spiritually (although I had walked down an aisle and prayed a prayer of salvation and been baptized) and I had no idea what was the truth. So what did I do. Well nothing until God did something. He saved me. Not because of anything I had done but of His mercy. He rescued me from my plight to hell and gave me Christ's righteouness. So once He did this it was very easy for me to believe what Christ said. And the only records we have of what Christ taught are in the Bible (I believe that the whole Mormon idea that Jesus came to America and taught here is completely false) So through God's blessings of being able to sit under the preaching of a qualified elder/pastor (as laid out in Titus 1 and 1 Timothy 3) in a biblical church God revealed Himself to me as He promises He will from His word. And so now I have come to love the Bible and regard it as inerrant, inspired, and sufficient. I wish I were a great debator, and apologist, and presuppositionalist to convince you all of what I know, but I am not. It is up to God.

On a personal note I see how coming out of a catholic background would leave you disgusted with organized religion, but that doesn't excuse it. There is no excuse for sin. Ever.

I did kind of ramble on that one. Sorry.

 

[Demon-Xanth]

The end of man:

Cloning
Electric Can openers
automatic door openers













With cloning, all you need is the egg from a female
With electric can openers, you no longer need a man to open a jar
With automatic door openers, having a man hold the door for you becomes irrelevant.




THIS IS THE TECHNOLOGY THAT MUST BE STOPPED!!! STOP IT IN THE NAME OF THE Y CHROMOSOME!!!!

 

[qacwac]

Sorry Eli. I didnt know if you were agreeing or not.

don't really understand what you meant by Remember that there are many versions of the Bible, nearly all of which, have been changed, and are untruthful.
Yes there are many versions.
I only hold the original greek and hebrew to be inerant.
By this I'm an not saying anything about the inerancy of english translations. They may be a perfect translation, they may not.
That does not mean that I say &quot;Well I choose to dismiss this passage because I can't read the original text.&quot;
I believe every word of my NKJ version unless someone convinces me of its error (which would be minor. I have faith that God has upheld His word from blatant untruth) from the original language.
My pastor has given more insight into the original meaning but he has never said, &quot;Don't believe that part of your Bible, it's wrong&quot;
I do not, as you do, claim that my Bible has untruth in it. If I knew of untruth in it I would get a knew one.

 

[Regine]

<< I'm just saying that we don't know enough (or as much as we would like to think we do) about evolution to claim is as undeniable universal fact. >>


We do have enough evidence. There is a clear line of evolution of man ever since we branched off the monkeys around 5 million years ago. That is what DNA showed as the evolutionary branching. We can now date hominid fossils back to 4.2 million years ago. Pretty damn close. From that date we can see the gradual changes that lead to the form that humans take on now.
What do you call the thousands of fossils of transitional forms of hominids that have been found, examined, analyzed and dated? I call them hard evidence for evolution.

 

[qacwac]

Question to all evolutionists: Where did everything come from. Big bang is not early enough. In my chemistry book I think it said that H and He were the only elements and they collided and fused and became the bigger elements and all that and some how this one explosion sent stuff to everywhere else. And then somehow some of these elements came together and formed a living thing. Somehow ths living thing lived and became two and eventually man. I know it's not the best explanation, there is much more, but I hope it will do. But my question is where did the H and He come from?
Only two options. It was formed, or it has been here forever. If you say formed then what was that stuff formed from. Eventually you have to say it has always been here. (I assume, I can't think of anything else) I ask this question because I honestly want to know.
So I'm assuming you believe some innate material has always existed.
So if this is what you believe then how do you account for morality, right and wrong, emotion, and all the other things that come with being human? If you say that you don't believe in morality and right and wrong then I again make the statement &quot;So it's not wrong if somebody decides to go and get his kicks from raping some little girl.&quot;

For me I rejoice in believing in an omnipotent, eternal God. It gives me an answer to every question I have ever thought.

 

[eia430]

qacwac, you said..

&quot;Anyone who follows the Bible word for word would be perfect because that is what it demands, perfection.&quot;

Well, perhaps a bit of explanatino by what I meant by millions take the bibile literaly. I have been in arguments before with some people because of EXACT wording on the bible. They give me foolish ignorant remarks like it has to be right because it is the exact words of God. They look oh so foolish when I open another Bible and we compare words....NOT THE SAME. Anyways what I meant by in a literal sense is there are factions of the catholic faith that have decreed that the Bible is perfect, error free, and must be taken literaly word for word. I made the statement that there are millions is from the reasoning that with over 5000 million people in the world at least 2 million of them would belong to one of the groups that believe you MUST believe 100% of the Bible or none at all.

It's good that you don't have any doubts about the Bible. I don't share that feeling. It just seems that the older I get the more I realize that you just can't trust ANY large organization, be it government, or church, or company. After a certain size, they seem to become very vulnrable to corruption no matter what group it is.

 

[MrPALCO]

<< There is a clear line of evolution of man ever since we branched off the monkeys around 5 million years ago. >>



It is Written...Then God said, &quot;Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.&quot; Genesis 1:26 Genesis 1 Genesis 1:25-27

Science has missed information that is critical to an understanding of the fossil record.

Regarding a primitive creature that is perceived to be a transition figure between man and monkey, I do not deny the existance of these creatures.

However, this is a creature that was on the earth before the Creation of Man.......and Eden...

 

[eia430]

qacwac, you said..

&quot;Where did everything come from. Big bang is not early enough&quot;


The big bang.... this is extremely irritating to me and this is why. If the church had it's way neither you nor me nor anyone would have even bothered to seek knowledge in any form beyond what the church makes up in it's delusions. The church cannot even explain anything past 2000 years ago. It has done it's best to keep everyone stupid. Now that people in general have worked past the church you have the gall to say the big bang is not early enough? Hmm, the church can explain things as fairytails built on ignorance, does not understand anything past 2000 years ago, science has gone back billions upon billions of years and you say it's not early enough? This is like a person that walks up to Bill Gates with $2 to his name and says gee bill, you ONLY have 60+ billion dollars in assets? you peasant you why don't you have 60 billion and one? HELLO MCFLY, you only have $2 to your name and you think you are in a position to ridicule bill gates???

Ok... fine, let me pose a question to you and see what kind of a fantasy answer you or the church comes up with. It goes like this... we (scientists) can't explain past the big bang can you explain past God?

Bigbang=God creating the universe

So if you want us to explain past the big bang, then explain to me WHO CREATED GOD?

Just don't give me some googgledy beloved patriot answer like &quot;he's always been around&quot; because I'll just give you &quot;well the big bang has always been around&quot; do you see my point?
I still believe in God, but I'm about ready to toss my Bible into the trash bin.

Oh yeah and another thing... how can the bible say thing like &quot;and Joseph said.....&quot; &quot;then Peter said.....&quot; hmmm was there a transcriber there? a tape recorder? someone with a writing instrument?? oh yeah these events were written as if in real time hundreds of years after they have occoured. So how is someone going to know 300 years from now what I said to someone a year ago word for word and have a snowball's chance in hell in getting it right? I don't understand why this isn't as clear to you as it is to me? Are you sure God saved you? or was it the church finaly succeded in turning your mind off?

 

[qacwac]

My question eia430 is concecptual. I don't care how many years evolutionists go back. The the dates just get older yet they never explain why. That is the question I ask myself, you, and everyone else. Why?
And it appears you have no answer to that question, you just go into a spill about how stupid I am and how it iritates you.
It appears to me that it iritates you because you have no answer.
Like I said in my post God the Trinity has been here forever. I think maybe God said it best when He said, &quot;I am that I am&quot; Exodus 3:14 He is His own explanantion.
I have asked the question &quot;Why&quot; and God is my answer. An omnipotent, eternal being.
So I again pose my question. Has H and He always existed and some how these elements controlled totally by random motion (I would say controlled totally by the laws of God, but random motion will do for this) have somehow created morality, emotion, knowledge, and right and wrong?
My answer is simple. We are made in the image of God therefore we have these things. Just like the Bible says.

I believe that the Bible was inspired by God. The God I believe in has infinite power and it is no big feat to divinely reveal the past to writers later in history.

As to my salvation experience. My earlier church attempted to convince me I had been saved and turn my mind off from what the Bible said but God showed me my true condition through personal reading of the Bible (which wasn't much) and a very good friend. Together we left that church and now attend one that believes, and preaches the Bible.

I curious as to what you meant when you said,
I already have done that a long time ago and my actions since reflect that
What did you do? Are you sure it's the right thing? How do you know it's the right thing?
I base my salvation experience on what the Bible says, &quot;For by grace are you saved through, and that not of yourselves, it is a gift of God lest any man should boast.&quot; Ephesians 2:8,9
Then I look to just about the entire book of 1 John and see if I have those birthmarks of Christianity that he lays out. That is what I base my slavation on because it is the word of the God I believe in.

 

[MrPALCO]

<< So if you want us to explain past the big bang, then explain to me WHO CREATED GOD? >>



You make a common assumption here that has limited many Scientific minds. That is, that the Whole of Creation can relate to the function of the physical realm, where every event has a Time element involved, and had a specific time at which it entered this realm.

Time does not have Ultimate Authority in the realms where God dwells

 

[qacwac]

One thing I forgot to say.
The big bang is an event.
God is not an event. He is a being.
Things happen.
Beings exist.
A thing can't happen since eternity past.
An omnipotent God can.