qacwac, I'm curious about a few things that I thought I'd get your input on. What do you think about the history of the church? (assuming roman catholic) What do you consider to be the truth? is it what the church tells you to believe, or do you take the facts presented to you and develop your own conclusions? As you can probably tell from my choice of words that I am one of those people that consider themselves "religeous" but keep a very weary eye on the church. I'm not here to convince you of anything or you to convince me. I am just curious on what your beliefs are and if I am correct in my assumptions, how you can keep to those beliefs. Meaning to better understand your point (the opposite to mine) of view and where you are coming from.
Thank you for reciting verbatim the Westminster catechism. Perhaps your end in life is to use your mind instead of your memory. Good day.
Jesus said in the bible that all organzied forms of religion are an abomination.
All religions, including so called Christians, have mutilated the Bible.
Btw- I am not religous, I am spiritual.
All religions, including so called Christians, have mutilated the Bible.
Btw- I am not religous, I am spiritual.
the ultimate end of man...
would also happen to be the beginning....
that is, the ultimate end is the tail, namely, chasing tail. the end of which results in sex which sooner or later becomes procreation... which leads birth thus the beginning...
why do we have to glorify god. God is god, there is no greater.
would also happen to be the beginning....
that is, the ultimate end is the tail, namely, chasing tail. the end of which results in sex which sooner or later becomes procreation... which leads birth thus the beginning...
why do we have to glorify god. God is god, there is no greater.
Well DiRF you seem to be the only one who recognized that but from the connotation it doesn't appear that you hold to it. (Neither do I but I hold to something very similar, I'm baptistic)
Here are my thoughts on that matter eia430, although I have not studied much church history. I first of all do not believe that all who claim Christianity and who are members of churches will inherit the kingdom of heaven. I believe there are many to whom Jesus will say, "Depart from me for I never knew you." So in the below scripture references these true Christians are the church. Thus said here is what I believe.
I believe the church is very important. It is spoken of as the bride of Christ which He will return for. It is also spoken of as the "body of Christ". (Ephesians 1:23 and Col 1:24) It is also said to be the "pillar and ground of the truth". (1 Tim 3:15) The Bible also makes it clear that the church should regularly meet together for various purposes. (Lord's table, fellowship, edification, etc.) So since I hold the Bible as the ultimate authority then I accept these things as truth. Now as to how obedient man has been in the commands of God pertaining to church life is a different matter. It is obvious that the church has distorted and abused its power in times past. (Roman Catholicism in particular in the Middle Ages) This doesn't excuse dismissing the church though. The truth remains that it is and always will be what scripture says it is. That is why I love Luther, Calvin, and other great reformers. (And yes I know that they had their faults, too) They didn't just accept the sorry state the church was in, but they were willing to give their life to bring it back to scripture. So that is where I stand. What my pastor tells me I accept as pastorial rule and obey, unless I see that it is in contradiction to the Bible. If I think it is then I would look into the matter and speak with him and trust the Holy Spirit to show me the truth. But in the end the Bible, not anybody else, is the authority.
I used to not hold this view but that was before I was shown that "we have been given all things that pertain to life and godliness" 2 Peter 1:3 and how i should live is not a mystery. God has given me His inspired, and sufficient Word. And as Bunyan said "It was written by Him that cannot lie."
I hope I haven't rambled to long. Please reply again.
Here are my thoughts on that matter eia430, although I have not studied much church history. I first of all do not believe that all who claim Christianity and who are members of churches will inherit the kingdom of heaven. I believe there are many to whom Jesus will say, "Depart from me for I never knew you." So in the below scripture references these true Christians are the church. Thus said here is what I believe.
I believe the church is very important. It is spoken of as the bride of Christ which He will return for. It is also spoken of as the "body of Christ". (Ephesians 1:23 and Col 1:24) It is also said to be the "pillar and ground of the truth". (1 Tim 3:15) The Bible also makes it clear that the church should regularly meet together for various purposes. (Lord's table, fellowship, edification, etc.) So since I hold the Bible as the ultimate authority then I accept these things as truth. Now as to how obedient man has been in the commands of God pertaining to church life is a different matter. It is obvious that the church has distorted and abused its power in times past. (Roman Catholicism in particular in the Middle Ages) This doesn't excuse dismissing the church though. The truth remains that it is and always will be what scripture says it is. That is why I love Luther, Calvin, and other great reformers. (And yes I know that they had their faults, too) They didn't just accept the sorry state the church was in, but they were willing to give their life to bring it back to scripture. So that is where I stand. What my pastor tells me I accept as pastorial rule and obey, unless I see that it is in contradiction to the Bible. If I think it is then I would look into the matter and speak with him and trust the Holy Spirit to show me the truth. But in the end the Bible, not anybody else, is the authority.
I used to not hold this view but that was before I was shown that "we have been given all things that pertain to life and godliness" 2 Peter 1:3 and how i should live is not a mystery. God has given me His inspired, and sufficient Word. And as Bunyan said "It was written by Him that cannot lie."
I hope I haven't rambled to long. Please reply again.
<< What is the ultimate end of man? >>
If you mean...what is Mans ultimate Quest?
To find God.
Jesus the Anointed One.
That is a point I do not want to be misunderstood on. It is certainly the case that God has all glory in Himself and we do not add to it. By glorifying God I was referring to a Christian being a mirror who reflects the glory of God. And again it is not that God needs me to glorify Him, but it is that He commanded me and created me to do that.
to MrPALCO: I do agree. However, I think there is more. I don't think that God created us for ourselves. I think He created us for Him. That is why God's purpose, to have His glory displayed, will come to pass. Not everyone will find God, through faith in Christ alone, but everyone will glorify God, be it in this life and eternally praising Him or at the Judgement when everyone will admit Christ is Lord and then they will glorify God as the objects of His wrath and justice for eternity.
I realise I may be splitting hairs but that is what I am convinced of.
I realise I may be splitting hairs but that is what I am convinced of.
Even if a considerable part of the Bible was written by God, there is nothing to quell the suspicion that a lot of it is not. Take for instance the Book of Thomas. For all we know it could be the word of God, yet it is not included in the Bible. For all we know part of Genesis could be fibbed. For all we know God didn't want Paul's letters to be included as the Word of God. For all we know John's visions at Patmos was a drug induced delusion.
My point is merely this: even if God exists (which I think is a real possibility), the Bible as we know it is not the be all and end all of the Christian faith, mainly for the possibilities I introduced above. I am not here to say the Bible is false, or that what the Bible teaches is false. I am only saying that it (or parts of it) might be, since although it is said that the "All Scripture is God breathed", the fact is that people wrote the Bible. The only passage of the Bible that was written by God is the Ten Commandments that God wrote on a rock. But Moses was the one that wrote about that and who knows what Moses was up to?
My comment about mind/memory was pretty rude and I apologize for that. However, I do think that the Bible or the Westminster catechism or whatever else should be taken with a grain of salt; we should not just memorize and regurgitate what is told to us, but use it as a tool for further analysis in our quest for the truth.
My point is merely this: even if God exists (which I think is a real possibility), the Bible as we know it is not the be all and end all of the Christian faith, mainly for the possibilities I introduced above. I am not here to say the Bible is false, or that what the Bible teaches is false. I am only saying that it (or parts of it) might be, since although it is said that the "All Scripture is God breathed", the fact is that people wrote the Bible. The only passage of the Bible that was written by God is the Ten Commandments that God wrote on a rock. But Moses was the one that wrote about that and who knows what Moses was up to?
My comment about mind/memory was pretty rude and I apologize for that. However, I do think that the Bible or the Westminster catechism or whatever else should be taken with a grain of salt; we should not just memorize and regurgitate what is told to us, but use it as a tool for further analysis in our quest for the truth.
Since i don't believe in creation i must say that mans's purpose is to survive. This doesn't mean that we take over the world, but co-exsist with all things on the planet.
As for the end of Man. If nature doesn't get us we will get our selves in the end. Nature will probably put us into an ice age due to a volcanic eruption or the magnetic poles switching. Man will get himself in the end by all out nuculer war. Happy thoughts, think happy thoughts.
As for the end of Man. If nature doesn't get us we will get our selves in the end. Nature will probably put us into an ice age due to a volcanic eruption or the magnetic poles switching. Man will get himself in the end by all out nuculer war. Happy thoughts, think happy thoughts.
What is truth DiRF?
In answer to your other points. The Old Testament was around when Jesus was alive (who I believe to be the Son of God, part of the Trinity. For proof of this the miracles, His perfection, and most of all His resurrection are abundant for me. If I didn't believe that then I wouldn't believe the Bible either) so I have no doubt to the Old Testaments validity because Jesus quoted and knew it. With the New Testament there is the fact that all of the New Testament was written by or under one of the apostles to whom Jesus personally gave His seal of approval. That, plus it's duration and it's continued ability to withstand the attacks of the "most educated men" leaves me with no doubt.
I am anxious to hear your reply.
I hope that I am not coming across as unloving. Paul says that "And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing." 1 Corinthians 13:3 and that is certianly not my intent.
In answer to your other points. The Old Testament was around when Jesus was alive (who I believe to be the Son of God, part of the Trinity. For proof of this the miracles, His perfection, and most of all His resurrection are abundant for me. If I didn't believe that then I wouldn't believe the Bible either) so I have no doubt to the Old Testaments validity because Jesus quoted and knew it. With the New Testament there is the fact that all of the New Testament was written by or under one of the apostles to whom Jesus personally gave His seal of approval. That, plus it's duration and it's continued ability to withstand the attacks of the "most educated men" leaves me with no doubt.
I am anxious to hear your reply.
I hope that I am not coming across as unloving. Paul says that "And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing." 1 Corinthians 13:3 and that is certianly not my intent.
<< What is truth...? >>
That's exactly what Pontius Pilate supposedly said to Jesus before he had Him crucified. The truth is the truth. If you're asking what I think the truth is, I don't know. If you're asking what truth is defined as, then a dictionary will probably suffice.
It does not follow that because Jesus quoted parts of the Old Testament, all of it is true. As far as I know, Jesus never said "God made man on the 6th day and rested on the 7th." Furthermore, how are you to trust the accountof what Jesus said, if they were written by man? As for Jesus giving his seal of approval, what if someone wrote stuff and said Jesus said it was ok? How would you verify this?
There is definitely faith involved in any belief and especially with the Bible.
I don't think Jesus would have allowed the people He died for to remain in ignorance by following some made up story when He knew the truth. I have not thought much about this but it could probably be argued that it would have went against His perfection.
truth is the truth isn't much of an answer to me. I'll explain myself a little more. Perhaps it would have been better to say "What is right and wrong." Does truth exist for right and wrong. Or in other words "Are there absolutes?"
I'll give some examples. Is it okay to kill someone? You would probably say "No" I would say "Why?" I do not know what you next phrase would be. If it is different for each person then maybe for me killing isn't wrong so I shouldn't be punished for doing something that isn't wrong for me. Society certainly doesn't determine what is right and wrong. If it did then we never should have stopped the Germans from killing the Jews. It was perfectly fine in their eyes. Yet we did stop them. Why? Because what they were doing was wrong. How do we know that? The only answer that I can see is that God has said so. Nature certainly doesn't determine right and wrong. In nature there is no rape. It is survival of the fittest. So I ask you the question why is it wrong for a man to rape a woman. He's stronger than her so doesn't he by natural law have the right to her. That's the way it is in nature. Of course not, but why? Some have said, "Because it just doesn't seem right." I am sure many serial rapist and murders felt great doing what they did. Yet society punished them. Why? Because there is a universal rule and it had to be given by God and it is in the Bible. That's why I believe what I believe. It all makes since. But I admit there is always faith.
Hope I didn't offend anyone.
I don't think Jesus would have allowed the people He died for to remain in ignorance by following some made up story when He knew the truth. I have not thought much about this but it could probably be argued that it would have went against His perfection.
truth is the truth isn't much of an answer to me. I'll explain myself a little more. Perhaps it would have been better to say "What is right and wrong." Does truth exist for right and wrong. Or in other words "Are there absolutes?"
I'll give some examples. Is it okay to kill someone? You would probably say "No" I would say "Why?" I do not know what you next phrase would be. If it is different for each person then maybe for me killing isn't wrong so I shouldn't be punished for doing something that isn't wrong for me. Society certainly doesn't determine what is right and wrong. If it did then we never should have stopped the Germans from killing the Jews. It was perfectly fine in their eyes. Yet we did stop them. Why? Because what they were doing was wrong. How do we know that? The only answer that I can see is that God has said so. Nature certainly doesn't determine right and wrong. In nature there is no rape. It is survival of the fittest. So I ask you the question why is it wrong for a man to rape a woman. He's stronger than her so doesn't he by natural law have the right to her. That's the way it is in nature. Of course not, but why? Some have said, "Because it just doesn't seem right." I am sure many serial rapist and murders felt great doing what they did. Yet society punished them. Why? Because there is a universal rule and it had to be given by God and it is in the Bible. That's why I believe what I believe. It all makes since. But I admit there is always faith.
Hope I didn't offend anyone.
qacwac, I've read your reply post, we agree in spirit about most things save one. You said...
"But in the end the Bible, not anybody else, is the authority."
I mostly believe in the same, but I have an added complication that you might not. The Bible has been through the grubby little hands of man. There are parts of it that when I read it I get the feeling that it is a used car salesman trying desperately to deceive and manipulate me. In Psalms I remember something that said(O rulers of the earth. Serve the Lord with fear, with trembling Kiss his feet, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way; for his wrath is quickly kindled.) Yeah, right, when was the last time ANY evil world leader has seen the wrath of God? We have world leaders that have gotten away with killing millions of people die of old age (pol pot for one) God's wrath is quickly kindled?. So what happend with the little thing in Psalms?? there is the strong possibility that it's a lie, a scare tactic designed to get world leaders to conform to the rule of the church. I cannot trust that the Bible is God's work alone. Everything that has been through the grubby little hands of man will be tainted. It's just unfortunate that it's hard to know which are his true teachings and which are manipulations of unscrupulous men bent on gaining more power through the church under the guise of doing God's work.
"But in the end the Bible, not anybody else, is the authority."
I mostly believe in the same, but I have an added complication that you might not. The Bible has been through the grubby little hands of man. There are parts of it that when I read it I get the feeling that it is a used car salesman trying desperately to deceive and manipulate me. In Psalms I remember something that said(O rulers of the earth. Serve the Lord with fear, with trembling Kiss his feet, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way; for his wrath is quickly kindled.) Yeah, right, when was the last time ANY evil world leader has seen the wrath of God? We have world leaders that have gotten away with killing millions of people die of old age (pol pot for one) God's wrath is quickly kindled?. So what happend with the little thing in Psalms?? there is the strong possibility that it's a lie, a scare tactic designed to get world leaders to conform to the rule of the church. I cannot trust that the Bible is God's work alone. Everything that has been through the grubby little hands of man will be tainted. It's just unfortunate that it's hard to know which are his true teachings and which are manipulations of unscrupulous men bent on gaining more power through the church under the guise of doing God's work.
Just an interesting note that my apstor told me further comfirming the creation for me. I assume everyone knows how we get our days, months, and years. Days by the time it takes the earth to revolve about it's axis, the months from the moon's cycle and the years from the earth's orbit around the sun. All makes perfect sense. But why weeks? They are all dorked up. No point at all. You would think that it would be easy enough to get rid of this pattern then. And the French tried. In an effort to get rid of religion or Christianity (not sure which) they put the people on eight day cycles instead of seven day cycles. (I'm not sure of the year, I'm no history buff) the results are quite enlightening. The people could not function. They totally just went to unproductivity. So again the question, "Why?" Well the Bible once again comes through. The creation accounts says God rested on the seventh day. Now God certainly did not need to rest but He did. In so doing he established a universal law that must be obeyed. Humans require rest and extended periods of time without it just doesn't work.
Well I found it enlightening atleast. I love to see the Bible proved.
Well I found it enlightening atleast. I love to see the Bible proved.
<< "Are there absolutes?" >>
Who knows? I'm inclined to say yes. As for absolute moral laws, again, I'm inclined to say yes, but who knows? Let's think about moral laws this way. Say God says murder is wrong. The question is, did God say murder is wrong because it's wrong, or is it wrong because God said it was wrong? If murder is wrong in itself, it follows that man can conceive of such absolutes. If murder is wrong because God said it was wrong, well that's not really a moral theory at all. It's more of a command.
<< Is it okay to kill someone? You would probably say "No" I would say "Why?" I do not know what you next phrase would be. >>
I would say it is okay to kill someone. If we were in olden times and God told me to kill pregnant women and their unborn babies too, I would think it would be okay to do that. In fact, that's what Israelites supposedly did in the Old Testament. Personally speaking, I can think of a few situations in which killing would be justified: self-defense, defense of others, etc.
Now, you can ask, do you think murder is wrong? I would probably say murder is wrong. You would say "Why?" and I would probably give you an unsatisfactory answer (unsatisfactory to you anyway). However, I could ask you the same question and your answer would be unsatisfactory to me. (for the reasons above)
to eia430: I don't know much about the OT (to my shame, well just now thinking about it I don't know much abot the NT but I am learnign) but in the Psalms there is a big difference in us now and them then. The Israelites were God's physical people. His power was displayed by physical manifestations. i.e. Gideon, Samson, David and Goliath, etc. We now are God's spiritual people. He manifest Himself in us by giving us His Holy Spirit, which they did not have. So while evil rulers do prosper they do not have the Holy Spirit and only heap up transgressions for themselves in the day of Judgement. It would be more approprite to look at the NT for our examples (I am in no way saying that the OT is not inspired, inerrant, and profitable) such as where Paul was stoned, beaten, inprisoned, Peter was crucified, Stephen was stoned, and almost all of them. Yet my assurance is that with the Holy Spirit I can not kill them as they did in the OT, but I can love and pray for them, even as they would stone me. (for a little motivation read about Christ forgiving even as He hung on the cross, and Stephen even as they crucified them)
Difficult scripture must be intepreted by more understandable scripture. That's the first law of Hermenoidics (something like that, I had a friend who went to seminary, dropped out though) I won't say that scripture doesn't some times confuse me. I believe that is a fault of mine, not scripture. My pastor gave a superb example once. Say a hundred people are put in a room and told to read the exact same thing. Now in the end there are probably going to be about 50-100 different intepretations of the text. So what is the variable, the people or the test? Obviously the people becasue they read the exact same thing. So even though some take scripture and distort it, it doesn't make me doubt it but rather proves itself. Every intent of man's heart is evil. so it is eay to believe mena would take perfection and fit it to their selfish motives.
Difficult scripture must be intepreted by more understandable scripture. That's the first law of Hermenoidics (something like that, I had a friend who went to seminary, dropped out though) I won't say that scripture doesn't some times confuse me. I believe that is a fault of mine, not scripture. My pastor gave a superb example once. Say a hundred people are put in a room and told to read the exact same thing. Now in the end there are probably going to be about 50-100 different intepretations of the text. So what is the variable, the people or the test? Obviously the people becasue they read the exact same thing. So even though some take scripture and distort it, it doesn't make me doubt it but rather proves itself. Every intent of man's heart is evil. so it is eay to believe mena would take perfection and fit it to their selfish motives.
God never said thou shalt have 7 day cycles. It could be the case that He didn't mention what he did on the 8th day because it wasn't relevant to us. Just because it wasn't written that Adam and Eve urinated and defecated, it doesn't mean they didn't have to.
It appears DiRF that we are at odds. My fault for not being more clear about the killing and murder thing. I too believe that killing is justifiable in certain cases. The only reason I believe it's okay is because God did not say that it wasn't, and He did command it. The only reason I believe murder is wrong is because God said so. The same about adultery. I personally would much rather prefer that God not said adultery is wrong and then lust would not be wrong and I would be more holy. But God said its wrong so that ends it for me. So I would say that my morality is the 10 Commandments. It is the "law written upon my heart."(don't know reference)
I'm still curious as to what your unsatisfactory answer to why murder is wrong would be. (I'm sure it would be unsatisfactory to me because for me the only answer for me is, "God said so."
Do you find it satisfactory? Honestly?
I'd love a reply just for future contemplation and equiping of myself for future dialectic.
I'm still curious as to what your unsatisfactory answer to why murder is wrong would be. (I'm sure it would be unsatisfactory to me because for me the only answer for me is, "God said so."
Do you find it satisfactory? Honestly?I'd love a reply just for future contemplation and equiping of myself for future dialectic.
True He didn't say it, but He established a universal pattern. That's why the French thing didn't work. They were going against a natural law that God had set forth by example, not by word.
The French thing might not have worked because people have been using 7 day cycles for so long. Sort of like sea sickness.
As for why I think murder is wrong, because it's unjust. What is justice? A sort of what goes around comes around... loosely. Any justification requires a lot of thinking and so forth. Perhaps the simple answer is that because it seems wrong, an intuition if you will.
I understand your position on morality because it's one that I've pondered as well. But there are cases in which God's commands seem wrong also. Take for example homosexuality. It seems to me that homosexuals aren't doing anything immoral, yet it is against God commands. In that case it seems that my intuition isn't based on my conscience or anything that God would have put in my mind. I am inclined to think that there are absolute moral laws that we can find out about, but as you can tell, I am not committed to that assumption.
Perhaps it was Socrates that arrived at the heart of the matter when he said that "I know that I don't know."
As for why I think murder is wrong, because it's unjust. What is justice? A sort of what goes around comes around... loosely. Any justification requires a lot of thinking and so forth. Perhaps the simple answer is that because it seems wrong, an intuition if you will.
I understand your position on morality because it's one that I've pondered as well. But there are cases in which God's commands seem wrong also. Take for example homosexuality. It seems to me that homosexuals aren't doing anything immoral, yet it is against God commands. In that case it seems that my intuition isn't based on my conscience or anything that God would have put in my mind. I am inclined to think that there are absolute moral laws that we can find out about, but as you can tell, I am not committed to that assumption.
Perhaps it was Socrates that arrived at the heart of the matter when he said that "I know that I don't know."
By what you say murder is not wrong, it just means that if you murder than you will be murdered. Adultery is not wrong, it just means that if you lust after someone, someone will lust after you. If you cheat on you wife, she wil cheat on you. Having sex with someone before mariage isn't wrong, it just means someone else will have sex before marriage. That makes no sense at all to me.
I do not trust intuition. As an unbeliever every intent of my heart was evil, against God, and striving for independency from Him. As a Christian I still have a sinful nature that is at animosity towards God.
I would say that homosexuality has at its root idolatry. The love of sexual fulfillment more than God. And not to be an idolater is the first commandment.
We are moral creatures. Everything we do is either right or wrong, even going shopping and chewing gum. It is morally wrong to sin. Why? Because God is Creator and thus deserves total obedience. So no matter what God says, to disobey is to be immoral. Now it ends up being that God has reasons for all of His laws (atleast I've never found one that had no reason) Examples are do not commit adultery to eliminate abortion, divorce, anxiety, mistrust, betrayal, and disease. Do not be homosexual to avoid disease, no offspring, improper place in society, improper treatment of the other sex, etc...
Perhaps Jesus said it better (No, I'm sure Jesus said it better) when he said, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
I do not trust intuition. As an unbeliever every intent of my heart was evil, against God, and striving for independency from Him. As a Christian I still have a sinful nature that is at animosity towards God.
I would say that homosexuality has at its root idolatry. The love of sexual fulfillment more than God. And not to be an idolater is the first commandment.
We are moral creatures. Everything we do is either right or wrong, even going shopping and chewing gum. It is morally wrong to sin. Why? Because God is Creator and thus deserves total obedience. So no matter what God says, to disobey is to be immoral. Now it ends up being that God has reasons for all of His laws (atleast I've never found one that had no reason) Examples are do not commit adultery to eliminate abortion, divorce, anxiety, mistrust, betrayal, and disease. Do not be homosexual to avoid disease, no offspring, improper place in society, improper treatment of the other sex, etc...
Perhaps Jesus said it better (No, I'm sure Jesus said it better) when he said, "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Ok to clarify, when I said what goes around comes around I really meant, you should get what you deserve, as in punishment for a crime. Getting your just deserts so to speak.
I'm very sympathetic to your "trust not your sinful intuition" argument. I can see how easy it would be to delude ourselves into REALLY REALLY believing as a rationalization. While I agree that we have a tendency to come up with rationalization, I can also think of Descartes argument which goes something like this:
1. God gave us the ability to reason, and God is not deceitful.
2. If God does not lie to us, our capacity to reason must not lead to something false. (when correctly applied of course)
3. Therefore, our ability to reason necessitates the ability to find out about the truth of things.
This is a very butchered restatement of his argument I admit, but it has been over a year since I've read his "Meditations". Basically what Descartes said was that if we are reasoning beings, then assuming God exists, we should be able, when our reason is correctly applied, to get at the truth.
So, taking that into account, I wonder if these moral laws are ones that we are able to find out about through our reasoning abilities.
I'm very sympathetic to your "trust not your sinful intuition" argument. I can see how easy it would be to delude ourselves into REALLY REALLY believing as a rationalization. While I agree that we have a tendency to come up with rationalization, I can also think of Descartes argument which goes something like this:
1. God gave us the ability to reason, and God is not deceitful.
2. If God does not lie to us, our capacity to reason must not lead to something false. (when correctly applied of course)
3. Therefore, our ability to reason necessitates the ability to find out about the truth of things.
This is a very butchered restatement of his argument I admit, but it has been over a year since I've read his "Meditations". Basically what Descartes said was that if we are reasoning beings, then assuming God exists, we should be able, when our reason is correctly applied, to get at the truth.
So, taking that into account, I wonder if these moral laws are ones that we are able to find out about through our reasoning abilities.
I certainly agree that we as humans have the ability to reason. However, as a result of the fall, man's reasoning is selfish, prideful, biased, and generally evil, seeking his own glory rather than God's glory. (which is man's ultimate end which started the whole discussion)
If this is true (which is pretty clear in the Bible) then it is very supprtive of man's total depravity and if someone is totally depraved, with every entent of the heart evil, how could he ever choose God? Not what I had originally planned to bring up yet but an interesting thought. I hope to post my thoughts and gatherings on this subject soon.
It is interesting to note that Descartes assumes truth exists or he wouldn't have said we can find it out.
If this is true (which is pretty clear in the Bible) then it is very supprtive of man's total depravity and if someone is totally depraved, with every entent of the heart evil, how could he ever choose God? Not what I had originally planned to bring up yet but an interesting thought. I hope to post my thoughts and gatherings on this subject soon.
It is interesting to note that Descartes assumes truth exists or he wouldn't have said we can find it out.
God does not want us to worship him. He wants us to live pure lives. That's where Church is wrong.
Like I said, all organized religions have interpreted the bible in their best interest, and it is an abomination.
The law of what goes around comes around, is the Universal Law of Karma. Murder is wrong because it is not your place to take another man's life. Suicide is wrong because it is not your place to take your own life.
Like I said, all organized religions have interpreted the bible in their best interest, and it is an abomination.
The law of what goes around comes around, is the Universal Law of Karma. Murder is wrong because it is not your place to take another man's life. Suicide is wrong because it is not your place to take your own life.
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