What is the NRA about?

[imported_tajmahal]

Now i know you have never been to one. every show i have ever been to in several states has required a background check for to buy anything with a serial number. Private sales in some states don't require a check. CO does require it for private sales.

It won't stop them from lying about it in every gun thread we have. The best we can do is call them on their lies every time.

 

[Jhhnn]

The 30-06 was made for the Springfield '03. Far more powerful than an AR-15/M-16 cartridge.

The better and legal source is
http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/

The 5.56 round is obviously of sufficient power for the military to adopt it. The discussion of more powerful rounds is a red herring.

You also made this claim-

I also know that the number of available firearms that a Californian can buy is small and the number is getting smaller while the prices skyrocket.

The inventory at Bud's Gun Shop & your own link put the lie to that.

 

[Victorian Gray]

It sure made a difference at the ballpark in Virginia and saved the lives of valuable Republican Congressmen. It must have really pissed you off.

Oh look, a shit stain.

 

[Jhhnn]

Now i know you have never been to one. every show i have ever been to in several states has required a background check for to buy anything with a serial number. Private sales in some states don't require a check. CO does require it for private sales.

False-

http://www.governing.com/gov-data/s...irearms-bankground-checks-state-laws-map.html

 

[SlowSpyder]

I never claimed that the 5.56 round is more powerful. I said it's practical to carry more rounds so you can kill more people. That's obviously the intent of the designers.

You ignored almost all of my post. Cigarettes kill ~42,000 innocent people (second hand smoke) a year, more than every gun suicide, gun murder, gun accident, police shooting resulting in death combined. Should we outlaw them? How about alcohol? Skateboards? Cars with too much power for you to think they're safe? Pen caps kills over 100 people a year, do we force manufacturers to only make push button pens? You hold guns to a standard you hold nothing else to. You want to limit millions of people's rights over things that make zero tangible difference in saving lives. People like you with your thinking are exactly why the NRA is what it is today.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

You ignored almost all of my post. Cigarettes kill ~42,000 innocent people (second hand smoke) a year, more than every gun suicide, gun murder, gun accident, police shooting resulting in death combined. Should we outlaw them? How about alcohol? Skateboards? Cars with too much power for you to think they're safe? Pen caps kills over 100 people a year, do we force manufacturers to only make push button pens? You hold guns to a standard you hold nothing else to. You want to limit millions of people's rights over things that make zero tangible difference in saving lives. People like you with your thinking are exactly why the NRA is what it is today.

absolutely think we should outlaw tobacco products, they have zero health benefits, and they do 1 thing, kill you. some slowly, some quickly,
alcohol, we tried that, didn't work out too well, at least for average joe citizen, and there are some medical benefits to light alcohol usage, although those studies are now being questioned
skateboards? fuck you, sk8 or die
guns are built with a single purpose in mind, to kill, some to kill animals, others are specifically designed to kill humans.
I do not want to outlaw guns, but there appears to be something seriously wrong with this country when we care more about guns than we do about the safety of our citizens and at least having a rational discussion

 

[SlowSpyder]

absolutely think we should outlaw tobacco products, they have zero health benefits, and they do 1 thing, kill you. some slowly, some quickly,
alcohol, we tried that, didn't work out too well, at least for average joe citizen, and there are some medical benefits to light alcohol usage, although those studies are now being questioned
skateboards? fuck you, sk8 or die
guns are built with a single purpose in mind, to kill, some to kill animals, others are specifically designed to kill humans.
I do not want to outlaw guns, but there appears to be something seriously wrong with this country when we care more about guns than we do about the safety of our citizens and at least having a rational discussion

I think we are having a rational discussion.

So, where are the many threads on outlawing tobacco? Why isn't this being brought up regularly? Why is so little energy put into that discussion and that political push when tobacco kills more than a half a million people a year if you include self harm. Guns deaths would amount to a single digit percentage when you compare the numbers to tobacco (and anti-gunners love to include suicides as that is the vast majority of gun deaths... inflates the numbers). Yet the anti-gunners aren't putting any real effort into that fight while they claim to be about saving lives. The propaganda is stronger against guns though...

So skateboards are ok, because its a hobby you like? If we outlawed them some kids wouldn't die every year. I hope some dots are being connected here.

All in all, I have to call bullshit. I don't think you care about saving lives, I think you care about restricting gun rights because that's what the propaganda has taught you.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

I think we are having a rational discussion.

So, where are the many threads on outlawing tobacco? Why isn't this being brought up regularly? Why is so little energy put into that discussion and that political push when tobacco kills more than a half a million people a year if you include self harm. Guns deaths would amount to a single digit percentage when you compare the numbers to tobacco. Yet the anti-gunners aren't putting any real effort into that fight while they claim to be about saving lives. The propaganda is stronger against guns though...

So skateboards are ok, because its a hobby you like? If we outlawed them some kids wouldn't die every year. I hope some dots are being connected here.

no dots, none at all
and the sk8 or die was tongue in cheek. I'm sure there are hundreds of activities that kill/maim/injure kids that should be looked at more carefully, but this is about the nra and how they are ensuring the gun manufacturers keep that money machine rolling.
tobacco is horrible, and I expect someday down the road it will all but be eliminated either through choice or through law. too much money and too much power for it now to be shut down.

but yea, the nra is a shitstain on the fabric of this society. why didn't they stand up for Philandro?

 

[SlowSpyder]

no dots, none at all
and the sk8 or die was tongue in cheek. I'm sure there are hundreds of activities that kill/maim/injure kids that should be looked at more carefully, but this is about the nra and how they are ensuring the gun manufacturers keep that money machine rolling.
tobacco is horrible, and I expect someday down the road it will all but be eliminated either through choice or through law. too much money and too much power for it now to be shut down.

but yea, the nra is a shitstain on the fabric of this society. why didn't they stand up for Philandro?

As I've said a few times, I'm not a NRA fan. It's a GOP mouthpiece and has a self-serving agenda that isn't all about protecting freedom, much of it I don't agree with. But again, as I've said, nonsensical pushes by the left have helped build the NRA we have today. Newton's third law.

 

[Jhhnn]

You ignored almost all of my post. Cigarettes kill ~42,000 innocent people (second hand smoke) a year, more than every gun suicide, gun murder, gun accident, police shooting resulting in death combined. Should we outlaw them? How about alcohol? Skateboards? Cars with too much power for you to think they're safe? Pen caps kills over 100 people a year, do we force manufacturers to only make push button pens? You hold guns to a standard you hold nothing else to. You want to limit millions of people's rights over things that make zero tangible difference in saving lives. People like you with your thinking are exactly why the NRA is what it is today.

None of those things were built for the express purpose of killing people.

I mean, uhh, that's the whole point of the M16 design & all its variants, isn't it?

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

None of those things were built for the express purpose of killing people.

I mean, uhh, that's the whole point of the M16 design & all its variants, isn't it?

and, well, handguns, pretty much a single purpose instrument. I mean, I guess you could remove all the ammo and use it as a hammer, but...

 

[jackstar7]

I think we are having a rational discussion.

So, where are the many threads on outlawing tobacco? Why isn't this being brought up regularly? Why is so little energy put into that discussion and that political push when tobacco kills more than a half a million people a year if you include self harm. Guns deaths would amount to a single digit percentage when you compare the numbers to tobacco (and anti-gunners love to include suicides as that is the vast majority of gun deaths... inflates the numbers). Yet the anti-gunners aren't putting any real effort into that fight while they claim to be about saving lives. The propaganda is stronger against guns though...

So skateboards are ok, because its a hobby you like? If we outlawed them some kids wouldn't die every year. I hope some dots are being connected here.

All in all, I have to call bullshit. I don't think you care about saving lives, I think you care about restricting gun rights because that's what the propaganda has taught you.

This is called whataboutism, just so you can identify this in yourself.

 

[SlowSpyder]

None of those things were built for the express purpose of killing people.

I mean, uhh, that's the whole point of the M16 design & all its variants, isn't it?

A gun is a tool. Its purpose is to fire a bullet. In the case of an M16, it is a military weapon, so ultimately its purpose is to, I wouldn't say kill people, but I'll go with where you're going... to be used on other people if need be. So... now what? How does that change anything? What is tobacco's purpose? Does the purpose matter, or the amount of people killed matter? This is EXACTLY what I'm getting at. Guns are scary to you. Tobacco is less scary to you. Tobacco is super easy to get and kills well over an order of magnitude more than guns. Yet your laser focus is on the much more restricted and harder to get item that kills far, far fewer. And you wonder why the NRA is what it is today? The anti-gun left is largely responsible for this.

 

[SlowSpyder]

This is called whataboutism, just so you can identify this in yourself.

Nothing we're discussing happens in a vacuum. There is a whole word of comparison around us.

 

[Sunburn74]

NRA represents gun manufacturers protecting their markets for their products. You can believe whatever you want to believe about this faceless organization that they care about your personal gun rights and have ethical principles and etc but the reality is like every other major industry organization (realestate organizations, home and auto loan organizations, etc) they really don't care and have never cared.

They will say whatever they have to say to keep people whipped up and engaged and buying guns but still the end of the day the bottom line isn't home safety or crimes stopped by guns but purely gun sales.

I'm not in the business of calling them good or evil. You should however not be naive in understanding what they are about and who is really financing the organization. Personally I found the ad to be disgusting and shameless but am not surprised by the increasing extremity of today's politics. Unfortunately someone will be shot at a rally as a consequence... At which point the NRAs response will be more guns are needed at rallies.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Nothing we're discussing happens in a vacuum. There is a whole word of comparison around us.

But there really isn't any equal comparison to guns. Tobacco is stupid and more times than not you're going to damage your own health rather than others, save for second hand smoke (yet another kettle of fish). But you cannot instantly kill someone with a cigar or cigarette. You can cause a nasty burn, maybe blind someone, but death isn't going to happen.
Guns kill, that's it. They carry an aura of the threat of death with them.
But yea, we are not in a vacuum, rational discourse can be had, I just think we need to find a better counterpoint to guns than tobacco or cars or skateboards or pen caps or alcohol.

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

NRA represents gun manufacturers protecting their markets for their products. You can believe whatever you want to believe about this faceless organization that they care about your personal gun rights and have ethical principles and etc but the reality is like every other major industry organization (realestate organizations, home and auto loan organizations, etc) they really don't care and have never cared.

They will say whatever they have to say to keep people whipped up and engaged and buying guns but still the end of the day the bottom line isn't home safety or crimes stopped by guns but purely gun sales.

I'm not in the business of calling them good or evil. You should however not be naive in understanding what they are about and who is really financing the organization. Personally I found the ad to be disgusting and shameless but am not surprised by the increasing extremity of today's politics. Unfortunately someone will be shot at a rally as a consequence... At which point the NRAs response will be more guns are needed at rallies.

and don't forget to feign innocence, they'll do that.

 

[SlowSpyder]

But there really isn't any equal comparison to guns. Tobacco is stupid and more times than not you're going to damage your own health rather than others, save for second hand smoke (yet another kettle of fish). But you cannot instantly kill someone with a cigar or cigarette. You can cause a nasty burn, maybe blind someone, but death isn't going to happen.
Guns kill, that's it. They carry an aura of the threat of death with them.
But yea, we are not in a vacuum, rational discourse can be had, I just think we need to find a better counterpoint to guns than tobacco or cars or skateboards or pen caps or alcohol.

As far as your first few sentences, statistically speaking, gun deaths are far more likely to be a suicide than any of the other reasons combined.

There are worth while comparisons with tobacco, but we can ignore it for now. I think alcohol is actually a very good comparison. Both have a black market that can increase with their outlawing or decrease with their legalizing, both have an amendment guaranteeing their respective freedom, both have groups that would rather see them gone, both have been implicated in crime (though guns are often also used to stop crime), both are legally sold with restriction (and managed by the ATF).

But I understand what you are saying, that guns have a purpose of shooting bullets, which are at least in some cases designed to harm humans as greatly as possible, where as alcohol is a drug that you drink, and the idea is to enjoy it. That's great. Now tell me how that changes anything if the goal is to save lives. Alcohol kills nearly well over 2x as many. If the bottom line goal is to have less death and injury why does it matter that a gun is at least in part designed to harm/kill and alcohol is not? If the goal is something else, I see why that can be dismissed...

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

As far as your first few sentences, statistically speaking, gun deaths are far more likely to be a suicide than any of the other reasons combined.

There are worth while comparisons with tobacco, but I think alcohol is actually a very good comparison. Both have a black market that can increase with their outlawing or decrease with their legalizing, both have an amendment guaranteeing their respective freedom, both have groups that would rather see them gone, both have been implicated in crime (though guns are often also used to stop crime), both are legally sold with restriction (and managed by the ATF).

But I understand what you are saying, that guns have a purpose of shooting bullets, which are at least in some cases designed to harm humans as greatly as possible, where as alcohol is a drug that you drink, and the idea is to enjoy them. That's great. Now tell me how that changes anything if the goal is to save lives. Alcohol kills nearly well over 2x as many. If the bottom line goal is to have less death and injury why does it matter that a gun is at least in part designed to harm/kill and alcohol is not? If the goal is something else, I see why that can be dismissed...

so you spin what I say "guns are designed to kill" and turn it into "guns have a purpose of shooting bullets"
no.
guns are designed to kill. There are numerous other ways you can shoot a projectile, they just tend to be a whole lot less accurate. I don't own a gun, don't like them but I have to ask a dumb question anyway. So if a gun costs more, does that imply that it's more accurate? <<< sincere question
And why is a gun accurate, so you can hit what you're aiming at and what are you usually aiming at?

 

[SlowSpyder]

so you spin what I say "guns are designed to kill" and turn it into "guns have a purpose of shooting bullets"
no.
guns are designed to kill. There are numerous other ways you can shoot a projectile, they just tend to be a whole lot less accurate. I don't own a gun, don't like them but I have to ask a dumb question anyway. So if a gun costs more, does that imply that it's more accurate? <<< sincere question
And why is a gun accurate, so you can hit what you're aiming at and what are you usually aiming at?

For the sake of argument, let's say guns are designed with one purpose, to kill human beings as efficiently as possible.

Now back to the other part: "Now tell me how that changes anything if the goal is to save lives. Alcohol kills nearly well over 2x as many. If the bottom line goal is to have less death and injury why does it matter that a gun is at least in part designed to harm/kill and alcohol is not? If the goal is something else, I see why that can be dismissed..."

 

[Sheik Yerbouti]

For the sake of argument, let's say guns are designed with one purpose, to kill human beings as efficiently as possible.

Now back to the other part: "Now tell me how that changes anything if the goal is to save lives. Alcohol kills nearly well over 2x as many. If the bottom line goal is to have less death and injury why does it matter that a gun is at least in part designed to harm/kill and alcohol is not? If the goal is something else, I see why that can be dismissed..."

Yea, but you can't take someone's life with a bottle of wine or whiskey directly, from 30 yards away
The goal is to save lives and make a safer community. I know what alcohol can do, I'm an alcoholic myself, 20+ years sober, luckily. And me not drinking definitely made the community safer, at least the immediate community around my apt.
But you don't walk into a convenience store with a bottle of gin and think you're going to rob the place. Although enough gin could convince you otherwise.
Some twisted fuck is not going to walk into an office building a school a post office a factory a hospital a college campus carrying 10 bottles of whatever and wipe out 5, 10 or more innocents in 5 mins.
I think I sufficiently made my point.

 

[Roflmouth]

It won't stop them from lying about it in every gun thread we have. The best we can do is call them on their lies every time.

That's because they heard their Lord & Master Obama say "gun show loophole" (the preferred way for mass murderers to buy guns in the imaginations of deranged liberals) and are mindlessly repeating it.

 

[Jhhnn]

That's because they heard their Lord & Master Obama say "gun show loophole" (the preferred way for mass murderers to buy guns in the imaginations of deranged liberals) and are mindlessly repeating it.

So, uhh, you're in favor of gun sales w/o background checks? Pay the price of admission to the gun show & choose from a variety of weapons with no questions asked?

 

[imported_tajmahal]

The 5.56 round is obviously of sufficient power for the military to adopt it. The discussion of more powerful rounds is a red herring.

You also made this claim-



The inventory at Bud's Gun Shop & your own link put the lie to that.

Compared to the firearms available here in Texas, it is small and getting smaller after the micro engraving laws were passed.

 

[imported_tajmahal]

So, uhh, you're in favor of gun sales w/o background checks? Pay the price of admission to the gun show & choose from a variety of weapons with no questions asked?

Another lie as shown by the CBI link I posted earlier.