What is so good about manufacturing?

[WhipperSnapper]

Why is manufacturing seen as "inherently good"?

So what makes that inherently special or good? Is there a logical reason, or just romanticism? People often say that service jobs are shitty. What defines a shitty job, provided it adds social value and no social costs? So medicine, teaching, insurance sales, don't add value to society?

Manufacturing is the act of creating real, physical, tangible goods. It is wealth creation. In contrast, it's difficult to consume a writings on a piece of paper. Look about you--almost everything in your house was "manufactured".

When people talk about "service jobs" they generally mean low-wage dead-end jobs such as retail service jobs.

Has anyone suggested that medicine, teaching, and insurance sales are inherently devoid of value?

Some would argue that we can dispense with filthy manufacturing jobs and just import consumer goods from overseas. What they fail to realize is that we need goods, services, and/or capital to offer other nations in order to be able to afford to import those goods. One of the prevalent myths is that our nation can advance to doing intellectual labor and exchange that for consumer goods. The problem is that people in other nation's also want to perform intellectual labor (you can even find colleges and engineers in other countries!) and they are often willing to do it for much lower wages.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

I'm not at all convinced that manufacturing is inherently necessary. What are you basing that on?

Replacing better paying jobs with worse paying ones is certainly a problem, but almost all of the highest paying jobs are also service or IP jobs. Why MUST manufacturing be a part of a healthy economy?

If our nation does not have a manufacturing sector then who will produce the physical goods for the populace to consume? How will you purchase such goods from other nations without impoverishing yourself?

You could try to argue that we can exchange intellectual work product for manufactured goods. Unfortunately, the U.S. does not have a magical monopoly on the ability to produce intellectual work product (contrary to what many people believe).

 

[WhipperSnapper]

If people choose not to develop in-demand skill sets, how can they expect a job with a living wage?

What exactly are the "in-demand" skill sets and how many additional people could be employed practicing those "in-demand" skill sets?

Is the demand real or is it illusory? For example, if a CEO laments that he's having difficulty finding people with MS degrees in Electrical Engineering when he offers $30,000/year for the jobs, that does not mean that we have a shortage of Electrical Engineers. Suppose that a CEO claims he has a shortage of IT employees but only wants to hire the most accomplished 1% of people in the field. That does not mean that there is a shortage of people qualified (and desiring) to work IT jobs.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Being an American is not a value-add that merits higher pay. The mere fact of working in manufacturing vs. other fields is not a value-add that merits extra pay. Some who would have previously worked in manufacturing might as well just adopt subsistence farming or hunting/gathering since it creates about the same level of value and there's less competition from other similarly uneducated, low-skilled morons.

It should be noted that a great many knowledge-based jobs--just about anything that can be done at a desk or on a computer--can also be done by foreign labor at lower wages. (In fact, the barrier to foreign competition might even be lower because it doesn't cost much to ship a stream of electrons or radio waves overseas.)

Global Labor Arbitrage--merging the American labor market with those of impoverished foreign labor markets--will average out the U.S. standard of living to that of the third world. This economic force is probably the primary driver of the middle class's decline

 

[mikeymikec]

I thought the tertiary industries are the only important industries. The stupid people do the first two right.

Hopefully you're joking.

 

[Engineer]

Some would argue that we can dispense with filthy manufacturing jobs and just import consumer goods from overseas. What they fail to realize is that we need goods, services, and/or capital to offer other nations in order to be able to afford to import those goods. One of the prevalent myths is that our nation can advance to doing intellectual labor and exchange that for consumer goods. The problem is that people in other nation's also want to perform intellectual labor (you can even find colleges and engineers in other countries!) and they are often willing to do it for much lower wages.

That pretty much describes the pro service economy (completely) folks of this forum. They feel that we are 'smart enough' (as a nation) that we can ALL be above the petty manufacturing jobs and just trade our smarts for the goods that we need/want (from those poor peasant fools from other countries getting nearly nothing to make said goods). And of course, as we fail, they think 'oh well', my job is secure enough and will never be offshored.....and 'fuck the stupid, moron people that used to be a factory workers and now refuses or can't go back to school and become engineers and programmers....what morons those people are!'

Then again, I'm not so sure that some of the people who believe in that dogma have a superiority complex and somehow think that they get to move up in status (look at me, I have a good paying job you dumb, underemployed previous factory workers) 'because' the rest of the lower middle and bottom are moving down. At some point, the drowning lower and lower middle will grab your ankles and pull you under too.

 

[JulesMaximus]

lol. OK, so all manufacturing jobs are well paid? Maybe production managers are, but those on the shop floor receive average wages at best.

And yes, flipping burgers at BK or loading the pressure fryer at KFC may seem like shitty jobs, but they still provide some value. Checking that the peanut butter making machine at Kraft is operational is a "shitty" job too, but it still provides value.

They pay a lot better than BK or KFC. Plus you have all the support staff, purchasing, accounting, R&D, customer service and all the entry level stepping stones to higher paid positions you can work up to.

 

[JulesMaximus]

That pretty much describes the pro service economy (completely) folks of this forum. They feel that we are 'smart enough' (as a nation) that we can ALL be above the petty manufacturing jobs and just trade our smarts for the goods that we need/want (from those poor peasant fools from other countries getting nearly nothing to make said goods). And of course, as we fail, they think 'oh well', my job is secure enough and will never be offshored.....and 'fuck the stupid, moron people that used to be a factory workers and now refuses or can't go back to school and become engineers and programmers....what morons those people are!'

Then again, I'm not so sure that some of the people who believe in that dogma have a superiority complex and somehow think that they get to move up in status (look at me, I have a good paying job you dumb, underemployed previous factory workers) 'because' the rest of the lower middle and bottom are moving down. At some point, the drowning lower and lower middle will grab your ankles and pull you under too.

They're delusional. I've been working in manufacturing for nearly 20 years (Accountant) and they're high if they think their jobs can't be outsourced. I've seen guys go live in the Philippines for a year to help establish a production line there along with all the support staff. Filipinos are not stupid people, they work harder than we do, they don't complain and they work for far less.

Meanwhile, we keep shrinking our production staff here and laying people off while building and expanding more plants there. In short, we're doomed.

 

[Engineer]

they work for far less.

I wonder 'how much less' that 'far less' would be if the currencies were on an equal (or close) footing.

 

[unokitty]

Things change.

To me, manufacturing jobs as a percentage of the labor force seems to be following the same type of curve that agricultural jobs did...

Just like there will always be some agricultural jobs, there will also be some manufacturing jobs...

As people discover how to make manufacturing workers more productive, there will be fewer manufacturing jobs. Outsourcing is an issue. But, in my mind, the larger issue is that as productivity increases, the number of workers decreases....

There will be better times but I'm getting by with these.

Uno

 

[mammador]

They pay a lot better than BK or KFC. Plus you have all the support staff, purchasing, accounting, R&D, customer service and all the entry level stepping stones to higher paid positions you can work up to.

Service industries have no buying centres, or accountants...

BK burger makers have low skills. Not all manufacturing jobs are high-skilled.

 

[mammador]

Manufacturing is the act of creating real, physical, tangible goods. It is wealth creation. In contrast, it's difficult to consume a writings on a piece of paper. Look about you--almost everything in your house was "manufactured".

When people talk about "service jobs" they generally mean low-wage dead-end jobs such as retail service jobs.

Has anyone suggested that medicine, teaching, and insurance sales are inherently devoid of value?

Some would argue that we can dispense with filthy manufacturing jobs and just import consumer goods from overseas. What they fail to realize is that we need goods, services, and/or capital to offer other nations in order to be able to afford to import those goods. One of the prevalent myths is that our nation can advance to doing intellectual labor and exchange that for consumer goods. The problem is that people in other nation's also want to perform intellectual labor (you can even find colleges and engineers in other countries!) and they are often willing to do it for much lower wages.

We need services as much as we need goods. Not all goods are true necessities anyhow.

And yes, medicine is a service. What to you constitutes a service?

 

[Engineer]

Things change.

To me, manufacturing jobs as a percentage of the labor force seems to be following the same type of curve that agricultural jobs did...

Just like there will always be some agricultural jobs, there will also be some manufacturing jobs...

As people discover how to make manufacturing workers more productive, there will be fewer manufacturing jobs. Outsourcing is an issue. But, in my mind, the larger issue is that as productivity increases, the number of workers decreases....

There will be better times but I'm getting by with these.

Uno

The people moved from agriculture to manufacturing. Now what are they moving to?

(Note: This is 2009. Since low wage jobs have dominated the recovery, I would tend to hypothesize that the percentage of low wage workers is even higher in the US now).


AND FINALLY...where are those manufacturing workers going? Engineers? IT professionals? High skilled, technical jobs?

Ross Perot said something about a giant sucking sound....the above graph indicates that pretty well.

You think all of these 'mid wage' jobs are going to 'high wage' or 'low wage'?

 

[OverVolt]

Hopefully you're joking.

I was lol.

 

[88keys]

The dirty little secret is that your labor is too expensive. You can't recover an economy that has been outsourced.

 

[mammador]

So how are most manufacturing jobs higher wage?

You're presuming that only jobs on production lines are manufacturing. Jobs per sector are all jobs in firms in industries. So even if one is an accountant in, say, Nissan or Toyota, s/he is included in the manufacturing statistics, as that's what Nissan/Toyota's core operations are. I would say that in the modern economy, the only people on production lines are those monitoring the robots and machines, and these people don't need many degrees or higher educational training. It's not like 50 or 100 years ago, with mass employed production lines.

So it's not a case of services per se, but given kinds of services. Tell a writer, a journalist, or even a real estate agent that services is shitty and low paid work lol..

 

[Engineer]

So how are most manufacturing jobs higher wage?

You're presuming that only jobs on production lines are manufacturing. Jobs per sector are all jobs in firms in industries. So even if one is an accountant in, say, Nissan or Toyota, s/he is included in the manufacturing statistics, as that's what Nissan/Toyota's core operations are. I would say that in the modern economy, the only people on production lines are those monitoring the robots and machines, and these people don't need many degrees or higher educational training. It's not like 50 or 100 years ago, with mass employed production lines.

So it's not a case of services per se, but given kinds of services. Tell a writer, a journalist, or even a real estate agent that services is shitty and low paid work lol..

You focus on higher paid services like there are enough of them to make up for the losses of the better paying middle class jobs. Of course, you don't realize that the vast majority of service jobs today are of food services, retail services and jobs like those.

You've obviously never been in a manufacturing plant so you don't have one damn clue as to what it's like or not like in a plant. NOT one.

You've made up your 'elitist' mind, probably based on some college course somewhere where the professor planted that service jobs are the way to go in our 'modern' economy. No amount of data or real life experience will convince you. Showing that the vast majority of people entering the service sector are lower wage jobs where they depend on the government for more and more services (food stamps, etc) while at the same time, showing that real wages are declining (for over a decade). Throw in that since the decline of manufacturing has started, a smaller (and shrinking) piece of the national income is going to workers.

If you honestly think that we can not make stuff and have a nation full of service people 'servicing' each other and import all of our goods, then there is no hope for you or America in that regards. Let's see how far you get once the US dollar stops being the worlds reserve currency and countries won't take it in exchange for their manufactured goods.

Yep, all of those formerly in manufacturing have moved to great pay with great benefit service jobs....

SMH

 

[Engineer]

Oh, and I'll throw a question in that I've never saw answered:

Does a temporary worker that works in a manufacturing plant count as a manufacturing worker, even though they work for a temporary employment 'service' company? I doubt that those folks get counted toward manufacturing and I would tend to think that there are more people actually working in manufacturing than the statistics show, just that they are counted as service employees.

Of course, they work along side the regular employees, get lower pay and benefits. They usually have to work well over 2 years to get on full time but many don't make it that long.

 

[88keys]

So how are most manufacturing jobs higher wage?

You're presuming that only jobs on production lines are manufacturing. Jobs per sector are all jobs in firms in industries. So even if one is an accountant in, say, Nissan or Toyota, s/he is included in the manufacturing statistics, as that's what Nissan/Toyota's core operations are. I would say that in the modern economy, the only people on production lines are those monitoring the robots and machines, and these people don't need many degrees or higher educational training. It's not like 50 or 100 years ago, with mass employed production lines.

Except that the people who work on the production lines for major automakers do get paid very well regardless of whether or not they are in a union. I think you're making a broad generalization that all manufacturing jobs are unskilled in the same way as a burger flipper at McDonald's which is completely untrue.

 

[unokitty]

The people moved from agriculture to manufacturing. Now what are they moving to?

Where the former manufacturing workers will move to I can't say.

But I can cite what Steve Jobs told President Obama when he asked what it would take to bring iPhone manufacturing jobs back to the US.

Those jobs aren't coming back.

Uno

 

[Engineer]

Where the former manufacturing workers will move to I can't say.

But I can cite what Steve Jobs told President Obama when he asked what it would take to bring iPhone manufacturing jobs back to the US.



Uno

and yet Motorola just opened a brand new manufacturing facility in Texas to make 100,000 Moto X Smartphones per week. Right now, it's assembly only but Motorola is bidding to have the parts made here too. Maybe Jobs was wrong...maybe they are coming back.

[URL="http://www.engadget.com/2013/09/10/motorola-us-factory-now-shipping-100000-moto-x-phones-a-week/"]http://www.engadget.com/2013/09/10/motorola-us-factory-now-shipping-100000-moto-x-phones-a-week/

 

[Matt1970]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Engineer
The people moved from agriculture to manufacturing. Now what are they moving to?

Where the former manufacturing workers will move to I can't say.

But I can cite what Steve Jobs told President Obama when he asked what it would take to bring iPhone manufacturing jobs back to the US.


Quote:
Those jobs aren't coming back.

Uno

That explains a lot of the problems with manufacturing in the US.

 

[Slammy1]

Depends on the type of manufacturing, surely skilled manufacturing plays a strong role in any economy.

I was working at Merck in the laboratory. When there was a problem the guys would push the problems on us, they were union workers. So one day at break I asked a friend why they did that, he said they figured we made more than them so we deserved their problems. I told him what I made, a whole lot less than him. After that they were much nicer.

I'm not trying to turn this into a union thread, it's just some manufacturing jobs pay quite well. Much more than the equivalent professional job.

 

[Kwatt]

The people moved from agriculture to manufacturing. Now what are they moving to?

I know the answer to this one!

They are moving to food stamps. All the money saved buying low cost labor products are paying for the food stamps.


.

 

[unokitty]

and yet Motorola just opened a brand new manufacturing facility in Texas to make 100,000 Moto X Smartphones per week. Right now, it's assembly only but Motorola is bidding to have the parts made here too. Maybe Jobs was wrong...maybe they are coming back.

http://www.engadget.com/2013/09/10/motorola-us-factory-now-shipping-100000-moto-x-phones-a-week/

From my perspective, US manufacturing output seems to be doing okay. Though, as productivity increases, the number of manufacturing jobs decreases. I don't see that changing.

Emotionally, I would like to agree with you that Jobs was wrong. But intellectually, I can't.

A few months ago Atlantic ran an article called Making It in America. The article draws a distinction between high and low skilled manufacturing jobs. Their conclusion: high skilled employees will eventually thrive. Low skilled employees may have their jobs outsourced no matter how hard they work. Or, as they put it:

...Those with the right ability and circumstances will, most likely, make the right adjustments, get the right skills, and eventually thrive. But I fear that those who are challenged now will only fall further behind.

In the 70s for a while, I lived in Peoria IL. At the time, Peoria was Caterpillar's world headquarters. And Cat was the largest employer in the State.

For most of that time, anyone could go to work for Cat starting out as a chip wheeler on the factory floor. It was a direct route to the middle class complete with the best medical insurance I've ever seen, a house in the suburbs, two cars and a motorcycle or a motorboat. Other than the ability to work in a hot factory environment sweeping up chips that fell out of the castings, no particular skills needed.

Those days are gone. They're not coming back.

Uno