What is so good about manufacturing?

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Nov 30, 2006
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That's good to hear! My only point is that a car manufacturing plant is basically certain to have more work related injuries in a year than an office building and manufacturing often uses chemicals, etc that pollute the environment more. It's just the cost of doing that sort of business.
That's not necessarily true. I work for a Fortune 500 company that's very heavy industrial and our recordable case rate consistently hovers around 1.0 which is considered world class, As you can see from the attached there are many office occupancies that have much higher accident rates. There has been tremendous improvement in industrial safety over the last couple of decades.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/archives/osh_10252012.pdf
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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That's not necessarily true. I work for a Fortune 500 company that's very heavy industrial and our recordable case rate consistently hovers around 1.0 which is considered world class, As you can see from the attached there are many office occupancies that have much higher accident rates. There has been tremendous improvement in industrial safety over the last couple of decades.

http://www.bls.gov/news.release/archives/osh_10252012.pdf

What specific figures in that are you referencing?

While I'm sure there are extremely safe industrial areas and plenty of exceptions, the sector as a whole has a higher injury rate than most.
 
Nov 30, 2006
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What specific figures in that are you referencing?

While I'm sure there are extremely safe industrial areas and plenty of exceptions, the sector as a whole has a higher injury rate than most.
Recordable Case Rates...It's the 3rd column in the table starting on page 6. Basically it's the number of lost-time accidents per 200,000 work hours. As you can see, there are several office-type professions that have higher RCRs than manufacturing. But, in general, you are correct...I just thought you might be interested.
 

Anarchist420

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2010
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So what makes that inherently special or good? Is there a logical reason, or just romanticism? People often say that service jobs are shitty. What defines a shitty job, provided it adds social value and no social costs? So medicine, teaching, insurance sales, don't add value to society?
Damn good question:)
 

mammador

Platinum Member
Dec 9, 2010
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Because at the end of the day everything you use in daily life is manufactured. Surely a healthy economy needs to be able to make much of what it actually uses.

lol. Simplistic reasoning.

Not all manufactured goods are of inherent use. A car isn't, technically. Certainly an iPhone or S4 are not.

Besides, based on our modern economy, we need services. So if you get sick, don't go to the doctor. If your S4 breaks down, don't send it back to Samsung to get it fixed..

The way I see it, provided that an industry is viable, provides jobs, provides a desired living standard, and is not a social cost, then anything is fair game.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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The way I see it, provided that an industry is viable, provides jobs, provides a desired living standard, and is not a social cost, then anything is fair game.

And there are service jobs that indeed do that very well. However, do you really think that the 2% of the entire US work force that are working for 3 companies: WalMart, McDonalds and Yum Brands (KFC, etc) have a desired (good) standard of living and are not a social cost (i.e. many on government assistance)?

Again, we can do this as long as we own the printing presses and the shipping countries accept the credit card.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
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Why is manufacturing seen as "inherently good"?

OK, let's get down to microeconomic theory. Manufacturing or secondary sector industry is essentially making and assembling things. So cars, aeroplanes, smartphones, desktops/laptops, well anything that can be assembled or made from scratch is manufacturing.

So what makes that inherently special or good? Is there a logical reason, or just romanticism? People often say that service jobs are shitty. What defines a shitty job, provided it adds social value and no social costs? So medicine, teaching, insurance sales, don't add value to society?

The simple fact is a certain large % of society isn't going to be professional level for their job, which equals their source of income for their lifetime. There are lots of reasons why, but, that's what it boils down to. So, given this, exactly what are these people going to do for the rest of their adult lives to support themselves? The answer is they will need easier to perform jobs, since, for whatever reason, that is their capability. If you are in a country where you have more of these types of people in an area than these types of jobs, what do you have? Unemployment. Crime. Low income neighborhoods. Etc. etc.

In the US, we make this even worse by allowing Millions of illegal invaders into the country to do jobs that these people could do, and, in fact, did do in the past, but now, it's too hard and collecting welfare is far easier.

We need manufacturing in the US. The harder problem to figure out is, exactly why would a business employ legal US workers when they could employ either cheaper more dedicated and more exploitable illegal US workers or just offshore to begin with and deal with none of the US BS in relation to making the product in Mexico, China, other shitholes?

Chuck
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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I'm surprised (well, not really) how many people think that manufacturing only employs or 'supports' low wage, non educated people. How about the managers? The engineers? Mechanical product designers? Packaging designers? The quality auditors? The maintenance people?

How about the outside engineering sales? Machine builders? Automation integrators? Automation designers?

I guess we don't need this 'huge' supporting cast since we don't need manufacturing, no?
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
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Why is manufacturing seen as "inherently good"?

OK, let's get down to microeconomic theory. Manufacturing or secondary sector industry is essentially making and assembling things. So cars, aeroplanes, smartphones, desktops/laptops, well anything that can be assembled or made from scratch is manufacturing.

So what makes that inherently special or good? Is there a logical reason, or just romanticism? People often say that service jobs are shitty. What defines a shitty job, provided it adds social value and no social costs? So medicine, teaching, insurance sales, don't add value to society?


Manufacturing is a semi-skilled to highly skilled job. When lots of jobs are available that demand that the potential labor market have a certain set of skills and education level then it does wonders for many things. It makes for a strong well payed labor force (ie the middle class), a strong economy, more motivated individuals, and more educated populace.

When the majority of the jobs available requires little to no skills, education, or training, then you end up with the opposite. This is what we face today. Most jobs, but only a small percentage of overall jobs available, require high degree of skill and education. Most jobs available on the market today for Americans are service or retail related. They don't require much of anything. This sparks the opposite of what we've had in the past for trends.

It's not really that manufacturing jobs are the end all be all of making for a better job class, economy, populace, and future. That route is certainly one that can work. However, there are alternatives. But almost all of the require production of some sort of commodity to be in demand by others. It's the requirement for production of something, even if it's not exactly manufacturing, that drives a good market.

The problem is, that while manufacturing does tend to require higher skill sets than retail or service jobs, it is not that much higher in comparison. Meaning you can take someone without out skills and with a minimum amount of training get them skilled enough to do most manufacturing jobs. This is what is happening world wide now. Countries are training their populace just enough to get them skilled enough to compete for manufacturing jobs, but at a fraction of the wage demand of richer countries that previous had the labor force controlling those jobs. So many countries in South America and South East Asia have been doing real well because of their taking over of manufacturing jobs. Inherently they were poor with a large unskilled labor force. They change their populace to be semi skilled and have the ability to offer that labor at a much reduced cost to the same costs that labor would be in America or other richer nations. As such they take those jobs for good or bad of the richer country.

That doesn't mean gloom and doom for the labor force of the richer country, but it does mean an adaption has to be made. Either a reduction of compensation to keep those jobs or other incentive is needed. Or the labor force needs to adapt to be even more skilled to produce goods of a level that a semi skilled labor force would not be able to do. THAT is the route America should have gone down in my opinion. Production of goods/commodities that required even higher levels of skill and education to produce. There certainly is a demand for it. However, because of various variables/pressures the American labor force went the other way. Our labor force got split. So we have super highly specialized labor jobs that require high degree of skill and tons of no skill jobs that too many are trying to compete for. Sure there is some of the semi skilled labor jobs out there, but not at the level it once was nor perhaps will ever be again.
 

chucky2

Lifer
Dec 9, 1999
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I'm surprised (well, not really) how many people think that manufacturing only employs or 'supports' low wage, non educated people. How about the managers? The engineers? Mechanical product designers? Packaging designers? The quality auditors? The maintenance people?

How about the outside engineering sales? Machine builders? Automation integrators? Automation designers?

I guess we don't need this 'huge' supporting cast since we don't need manufacturing, no?

It's not that. It's just that many of those same jobs we'll still have when the plant is outsourced (or illegals are working the jobs), and, the numbers of those jobs make up far less of a % of total jobs for the plant than the actual blue collar jobs.

Sure the maintenance people will be lost when the plant is offshored, but, so what? It's another 20-30 blue collar jobs added to the 1500 blue collar jobs just offshored. Barely noticable...
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
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I worked in a casting plant owned by Olin. The pay was pretty good but I was laid off a lot of the time. It is not for everyone. Still it takes a lot of skill and knowledge to work there every bar that we rolled had to be entered in the computer as it went through each process. You at least needed half a brain to work there. Even the janitor and the fork lift operators had to order supplies using a computer. That is not exactly rocket science, but most office jobs aren't exactly rocket science either.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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It's not that. It's just that many of those same jobs we'll still have when the plant is outsourced (or illegals are working the jobs), and, the numbers of those jobs make up far less of a % of total jobs for the plant than the actual blue collar jobs.

Sure the maintenance people will be lost when the plant is offshored, but, so what? It's another 20-30 blue collar jobs added to the 1500 blue collar jobs just offshored. Barely noticable...

I've heard that in various forms throughout my life. Working as an automation engineer (EE), I see how many people support these plants day in and day out, including my company (which is both a machine building company as well as a services (repair, etc) company). Every job counts and if there were no manufacturing here, my company would most certainly not exist. Nor would thousands of other support companies that support this country's manufacturing.

Barely noticeable.....Often, when working trying to speed a process up, I hear that "We need to take 10 seconds out of the process". I start going through the process and I'll find something that removes 0.1 seconds from the process. First thing I hear (often) is that "hey, we need 10, not .1" (barely noticeable). Of course, I go through each and every process multiple times and even re-sequence processes. Next thing we know, I've shaved 10 seconds off the process. The barely noticeable has now become a big thing. It all adds up.

All it takes is looking at the charts: Decline in manufacturing, increase in trade deficit, increase in public and personal debt, flat - real wages, etc. and notice that the timeline starts with the decline of manufacturing. If the bottom and lower middle aren't strong (or declining), the building will fall. Just a matter of time.

Can't import our way to prosperity.....
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
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Why is manufacturing seen as "inherently good"?

OK, let's get down to microeconomic theory. Manufacturing or secondary sector industry is essentially making and assembling things. So cars, aeroplanes, smartphones, desktops/laptops, well anything that can be assembled or made from scratch is manufacturing.

So what makes that inherently special or good? Is there a logical reason, or just romanticism? People often say that service jobs are shitty. What defines a shitty job, provided it adds social value and no social costs? So medicine, teaching, insurance sales, don't add value to society?
The first issue is wealth creation. We all consume wealth - we have to, to survive - so it must come from somewhere. Wealth creation is fairly limited - manufacturing, farming, fishing, and mining come to mind - and if someone else does our manufacturing for us, we have to have something of real value to trade in exchange. There is nothing inherently wrong with service jobs, but to date we've been unable to sell enough services to those who do our wealth creation to come even close to breaking even, and I see nothing on the horizon to change this. The net result of that is a steady and accelerating transfer of wealth from our nation to those who do our manufacturing. A huge number of American corporations are now foreign corporations; a huge number of the American debt is now owned by foreigners; a huge amount of American property is now owned by foreigners. Eventually we'll run out of stuff to sell.

The second issue is relative job value, as reflected by wages. Traditionally, manufacturing jobs are highly to moderate skilled jobs. Couple that with wealth creation and you have good-paying jobs. Conversely, most service jobs are relatively low skilled jobs; huge numbers of people can do them with little training, which makes them low-paying jobs. Certainly there are exceptions - highly paid jobs such as physician or nuclear engineer or appellate lawyer are essentially service sector jobs - but on balance, most service sector jobs do not require a lot of training, job skills, or education. When we lose good-paying jobs, our average wage and our net societal wealth both decline, which is bad. Worse, the disappearance of these jobs means there are more people competing for the better paying service sector jobs, and the immutable law of supply and demand says the price for those jobs must also go down. Combine that with increased immigration - especially illegal immigration - and you've got the trifecta of wage depression.

One third factor is income inequality. I'm by no means in favor of government seizing and redistributing income already distributed by the market, but it's undeniable that generally speaking, a society with a moderate spread of income and wealth is a happier, more peaceful, more productive society. We definitely need winners and losers to spur the effort to succeed - that's what drives progress - but at some point the spread is counter-productive. When resource owners are free to farm out these relatively well-paying jobs, the other people naturally feel less connected, less a part of the same society. If Neil sees nothing wrong with moving Bob's job to China so that Neil can make more money, then Bob will see nothing wrong with using the armed might of government to take Neil's money for Bob. This isn't just a matter of Neil and Bob, because when government is excessively empowered we all lose liberty. A doctor isn't directly affected by whether her Cadillac is manufactured in Detroit or Mexico, but she's definitely affected by the growth in government power associated with moving manufacturing to Mexico. This move to empower government is inevitable with outsourcing, because at best people have an innate sense of fairness only when they think the game is fair and not many Americans believe that competing with dollar a day labor is fair.

Why are jobs seen as inherently good when everyone can either work for Uncle Sam or just go on some form of welfare? Because that is where we are headed as a country, hook, line and sinker.

And I see psychiatry as a real booming profession in the years to come, if these forums are any indication.
LOL +1 Maybe all those unemployed psychology majors are just about to ride the coming boom.

Nope, forgot that psychologists can't prescribe meds!
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
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I think the problem is simple.

Many service jobs generally have to be done locally. Whereas as manufacturing can be done essentially anywhere with the finished good then shipped worldwide.

If my trinkets are made in China its is awfully hard for me to cut someone's hair in China in payment for said trinket.
Simple, cogent, brilliant - that's as good an explanation of the essence of the problem as I've seen. Would that you could explain that to each and every political office holder.

I've heard that in various forms throughout my life. Working as an automation engineer (EE), I see how many people support these plants day in and day out, including my company (which is both a machine building company as well as a services (repair, etc) company). Every job counts and if there were no manufacturing here, my company would most certainly not exist. Nor would thousands of other support companies that support this country's manufacturing.

Barely noticeable.....Often, when working trying to speed a process up, I hear that "We need to take 10 seconds out of the process". I start going through the process and I'll find something that removes 0.1 seconds from the process. First thing I hear (often) is that "hey, we need 10, not .1" (barely noticeable). Of course, I go through each and every process multiple times and even re-sequence processes. Next thing we know, I've shaved 10 seconds off the process. The barely noticeable has now become a big thing. It all adds up.

All it takes is looking at the charts: Decline in manufacturing, increase in trade deficit, increase in public and personal debt, flat - real wages, etc. and notice that the timeline starts with the decline of manufacturing. If the bottom and lower middle aren't strong (or declining), the building will fall. Just a matter of time.

Can't import our way to prosperity.....
Well said. There's a saying in drag racing that the easiest way to cut a hundred pounds is to find a hundred places to cut one pound. Backpackers have the same ethos, drilling holes in virtually everything. As you say, we're seeing the same effect at work on jobs with losing our manufacturing.
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
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I am not against sending money overseas but we don't have to send all our money to China. Ideally we want trade partners which both sell and buy goods from/to us.

Why is it we want to send all our money to a communist country? Do we want to be slaves to red china?

We made Japan open automobile plants in the USA. We should do the same for computers and other products.
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
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While this is true, it's not just imports that have gutted manufacturing jobs, it's also been automation. Making 20,000 cars, for example, takes a HECK of a lot fewer workers today than it did 50 years ago. That fact isn't changing, and automation is only increasing.
True, but the core problem is us sending more money out than what we take in. Once robotics reaches a certain critical point, economies of developed and developing nations will have to be totally rethought. Among other things, it would truly allow all classes to have leisure time, which could be downright dangerous (think about the middle-aged people you know that never matured past their early teens, before you dismiss it as a tongue-in-cheek remark). Somebody has to design the robot, make the robot, install the robot, service the robot, train the robot, etc.. All of them combined might still account for 1/10th of a human worker doing the same work, but that's a Hell of a lot better than humans getting paid for the work in India, China, Costa Rica, Zimbabwe, or wherever they are, if it can be designed, made, installed, trained, and serviced domestically.

The big issue we have now is much more that when you buy something for $50, $10 (arbitrary value) comes back to the domestic economy, and $40 (arbitrary value) gets split between foreign interests and investments that aren't "trickling" their way back down to you and yours. While it still leaves a bit of a job shortage, automation itself is not a bad thing at all, given that we need to produce and sell more of more value from here than we pay for from there. It can also help solve a fairly major current problem of people have very little extra money, which, in other times, would go towards all that skillset improvement that keeps being harped on about (it wouldn't do so as well as employing more humans, but since they need decent safety and pay, those times are permanently gone). With COL going up, and wages staying stagnant, effective wages have been decreasing, and the "grease" needed for economic mobility is in ever-shorter supply.

Manufacturing and selling domestically reduces the drain of consuming foreign goods at higher rates than we produce. Manufacturing and exporting directly attacks the problem. Manufacturing and selling domestically and abroad, attacks the problem from both directions. With an economy that has more outgo and income, you need to start tipping the balance, and eventually reach a balanced point. Services simply cannot do that. Services are needed, but they need to be supporting domestic production of profitable goods. Making things people want to buy, however, can do exactly that.

Also, the lower economic echelons are where most non-federal taxes are coming from.

If we can produce more than we consume for long enough to bring our debt and deficits down (not necessarily gone, but reasonable), then the rest of it would be a matter of figuring out the best way to barbeque or current political class, and get some volatility in who makes up our government, so that enough people are in there still connected to their constituents to make a positive difference for them. That, of course, is a whole other can of worms, and does not necessarily need to be done afterwards (just that if we start turning around and don't do it, we'll be sliding right on back into a worse bust than the last one, and be right back here again, but even weirder technology available to the masses).

Not all manufactured goods are of inherent use. A car isn't, technically.
It is, non-technically. If you don't live and work deep inside a city, or a bad neighborhood just outside of it, you don't get to work without one. You don't get hired for many jobs without one, either (as in, your vehicle occasionally becomes a work vehicle). Even living in a city, if you live in a good neighborhood, you'll still need one, because bus routes don't stop there (and that's how they like it). If you don't only buy new cars, you also end up paying as much or more to live close enough to work, in a city, to not need a car.

Now, an iPhone isn't, no matter how you look at it. You can get <$100 phones that do everything you'll need for a job, today, unless it's a job at an Apple house, in which case the cost shouldn't be (a) a problem nor (b) a status symbol issue.
 
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Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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make the robot

Unless I'm mistaken, the US makes no robots other than 'Baxter'. Japan has pretty much cornered the market with robots. The Fanuc factory in Japan is supposed to be legendary as a 'lights out factory' (almost no people working in the factory) for making Fanuc robots.

ABB robots are made in Sweden.

Fanuc, Denzo, Motoman, Yamaha, Kawasaki, OTC are all made in Japan.

Baxter is the cheap, two armed robot that is easy to teach and run (about $22,000 list). I don't think Baxter is fast enough for many industrial applications though. Nor would he be good for certain types of applications such as high force press loading/unloading and welding.
 

herm0016

Diamond Member
Feb 26, 2005
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you need some people doing things that create value. service jobs do not create anything, its just a transfer of money. When you build something, are are creating expansion in the economy.
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
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Baxter is the cheap, two armed robot that is easy to teach and run (about $22,000 list). I don't think Baxter is fast enough for many industrial applications though. Nor would he be good for certain types of applications such as high force press loading/unloading and welding.
:(

Just when I start thinking hopeful thoughts, you go and throw them under the bus.

At least those are mostly made here, still. ;)

OTOH, if we have those robots that can do that work, then we also have the means to make more robots to do that work, some way, some how...but of course, someone has to plop down truckloads of money to make that happen, so... :'( We're totally screwed.
 

Cerb

Elite Member
Aug 26, 2000
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Is 'Programming' a service job or does it 'create wealth'?
It's a supporting role to some economic entity/activity, which may or may not be creating wealth. Not much different than asking if a welder creates wealth, or a graphic designer. It depends on what their work is going towards. Many jobs are not strictly on one side or the other, in and of themselves.
 
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Anarchist420

Diamond Member
Feb 13, 2010
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Even though high tariffs suck, they don't suck as bad as the WTO and other trade treaties. National tariffs are not a globally uniform trade policy, while the WTO and NAFTA have regulations on a global scale and so they can't be evaded in any way.

The more sovereigns the merrier.
Is 'Programming' a service job or does it 'create wealth'?
If it is a voluntary transaction, then it creates wealth.