What is so bad about TN panel monitors?

[Captante]

Originally posted by: MarcVenice
I disagree Captante, there is no real downside, I bet TN panels are still the most common and most sold lcd monitors, and they are just fine for plenty of people. I could agree with people saying IPS ir VA panels being BETTER, but people saying TN panels suck aren't adding anything to the community save for some fud.

I never said newer TN panels suck but the old ones certainly did ... in fact I said almost exactly what you did, that they arn't as good as IPS/VA panels in terms of color accuracy or viewing angle (both facts, not FUD) which to me at least are certainly disadvantages. I'm sure if you looked hard enough you could scare up a few low quality VA or even IPS panels that would be overall inferior to the best TN's but that hardly means the TN-based panel is always better.

The only advantages 6-bit TN's have over any high-quality 8-bit IPS/VA's is faster response time & considerably lower price but thats NOT to say that people shouldn't still consider buying a quality TN-based LCD moniter, in fact quite the opposite as some are good values. I actually have a Samsung 2253BW 22 inch TN panel I snagged a couple weeks ago for my second PC & its not terrible (especially for the $278 I paid!) its just that compared to the BenQ FP241W sitting next to it it looks pretty crappy viewing photos or DVD's ... of course the M-PVA based BenQ cost over $700 so its not really a fair comparision.

 

[Pugnate]

Originally posted by: LOUISSSSS
i see now.. so if i'm in my room watching a movie or playing some CS:S and someone walks into my room, what will they see from a strong (160-180degree) angle? will they be able to make out whats going on on my screen? or will they see "just a bunch of colors"?

They are worse, but not so worse.

 

[jaqie]

Originally posted by: qliveur
Acer AL2216W 22" TN

Hate to burst your bubble, but they are not TN, they are PVA.

http://www.afterdawn.com/hardw....cfm/1385/acer_al2216w
http://www.twenga.co.uk/specs-...ACER-LCD-monitor-47231
http://www.ciao.com/Acer_AL2216W__15407746

Google for more.

 

[MarcVenice]

22": Acer AL2216Wbd, 1680x1050 (16:10)

* Panel: TN (CMO M220Z1-L01); 6-bit+Hi-FRC, 16.7M colors
* Image Delay (rt+lag): 0 - 7.7 - 32
* Specifications: Acer AL2216Wbd
* HDCP Compliant: Yes
* More Info: prad.de
* Notes: Good value for a 22" panel.
* Price: ~$230 USD

The stickied LCD thread says it's a TN panel, perhaps he's mistaken in the exact model # ?

 

[SlowSpyder]

I love my 22" Acre (TN panel). I could see the viewing angles being an issue for a TV where people would view it from different seating positions in a room, but for a computer monitor it's fine.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Captante
People who are "anal" about moniters translates into people who did a few side-by-side comparisions and read many reviews of said moniters before buying ... although TN-panel LCD's have gotten better then they used to be, that isn't saying much because they used to be total crap.

Talk to people who either own both types or have done extensive viewing of both & then see if you can find a way to compare on your own. The problem you'll run into is that its very difficult to find a place with TN's set up next to other higher quality LCD's with true 8-bit panels since most people buy on price not IQ. Last year when I bought my BenQ FP241W I was able to compare it with the 22 inch TN BenQ at a trade show & the difference was extremely obvious, both in color reproduction & viewing angles ... I also compared the Gateway 24 & 21 inch M-PVA panels with the Gateway 22 inch TN model with the same results & in fact every 22 inch TN I've looked at has been at best a letdown.

Bottom line is that the only people you'll hear tell you that even the best TN's are as good as high quality IPS or M-PVA panels are those who only own a TN ... don't get me wrong, its fine with me if a TN is "good enough" for you, but when sombody tells you theres no downside to a 6-bit TN panel LCD you're being mislead.

Absolute nonsense

i bet i could set you up directly in front of 50 panels - TN/IPS/M-PVA or V-LSD - and you could not tell the difference

i bought 2 panels at a time; about 8 panels in side-by-side .. i doubt if you really did that, did you?
i settled on my current 20" 16x10 Samsung as best bang for buck at $135
- it had the *best black* and great color!
.. and these stupid IPS panels will vary greatly from screen to screen - even the next one off the same line the same day!
- so one will get a "good TN" and someone else will get a "Crap IPS" and they will make a comment judging the entire LCD line

it is ALL compromise

of course you can be anal .. i will gladly stick with my cheapie; you can feel better about paying 3x times more .. for the viewing angles

 

[Jax Omen]

TN panels offer the best value-for-the-dollar to a single user. Period. The main user is sitting right in front of the monitor, so viewing angles are a moot point, and the color difference is imperceptible to most people.

That being said, I bought the Doublesight 25.5" IPS-panel monitor because my girlfriend and I watch shows/movies on my computer from our bed... where viewing angles would be a major issue. And my old CRT gave up the ghost, so...

Well worth the $300 premium over the 24" TN panels... In my situation.

 

[jaqie]

Originally posted by: MarcVenice
The stickied LCD thread says it's a TN panel, perhaps he's mistaken in the exact model # ?

According to the US site, there is only one AL2216W sold, the bd model, which apparently means black faceplate with 110v NEMA (standard US outlet config) plug.
The information gathered that you quoted seems to be from an out of country site, perhaps the one reviewed is not even sold in the USA. Acer's page does not specify the LCD type of the monitor, but specifies that the US version at least has a black case design, so there may indeed be a seperate US from foreign model internally as well as in case color/design.

It seems that there is some misinformation out there one way or the other on whether this is a TN or PVA LCD, whichever is true I am unsure of but all american-based sites seem to be saying PVA while foreign say TN.

 

[redlinez33]

I tried 12 different monitors this past winter. I had TNs next to SPVAs, MVAs and IPS panels. The difference is obvious. I wont explain why because everyone who thinks TNs are AS good as VA/IPS wont be convinced by anyone... atleast not me. Lets just say its easy to tell which was TN and which was not TN. Especially in the 24"+ sizes.

VA vs IPS is a different story... Each has there pros and cons. VA has the obvious color shifting problem though.

 

[redlinez33]

Theres only 2 VA 22" monitors that I know of. A LENOVO 1920x1200 resolution monitor (<=$500) and a really expensive EIZO..

I seriously doubt ACER is selling a 22" PVA panel for under $300.........

 

[Diogenes2]

Are there any true 8 bit TN's ?
How can you tell ?

 

[redlinez33]

Originally posted by: Diogenes2
Are there any true 8 bit TN's ?
How can you tell ?

Not that I am aware of

My question would be is it even possible with this technology? Or do they make it 6bit only for price?

 

[CP5670]

i bet i could set you up directly in front of 50 panels - TN/IPS/M-PVA or V-LSD - and you could not tell the difference

i bought 2 panels at a time; about 8 panels in side-by-side .. i doubt if you really did that, did you?
i settled on my current 20" 16x10 Samsung as best bang for buck at $135
- it had the *best black* and great color!
.. and these stupid IPS panels will vary greatly from screen to screen - even the next one off the same line the same day!
- so one will get a "good TN" and someone else will get a "Crap IPS" and they will make a comment judging the entire LCD line

it is ALL compromise

I would notice without even trying to on any kind of motion graphics. The flickering and dithering effects from Hi-FRC become obvious to me in games, even if they aren't that noticeable on a still image.

However, I do think that the other types of panels are somewhat overrated, as they have their own, different set of shortcomings. Despite the 6-bit artifacts on TNs, they still have the lowest overall motion blur and as a result look better in some fast paced games. The black levels on some of the newer TNs are also superior to IPSs these days, although not as good as VAs. IPSs are still the best all things considered, but they certainly aren't flawless like they are often made out to be.

According to the US site, there is only one AL2216W sold, the bd model, which apparently means black faceplate with 110v NEMA (standard US outlet config) plug.
The information gathered that you quoted seems to be from an out of country site, perhaps the one reviewed is not even sold in the USA. Acer's page does not specify the LCD type of the monitor, but specifies that the US version at least has a black case design, so there may indeed be a seperate US from foreign model internally as well as in case color/design.

It seems that there is some misinformation out there one way or the other on whether this is a TN or PVA LCD, whichever is true I am unsure of but all american-based sites seem to be saying PVA while foreign say TN.

If it's 22", it is almost certainly a TN right there. I don't know of any 8-bit panels made in that size and the 1680x1050 resolution. The viewing angles in the Newegg specs also indicate a TN.

 

[IndieSnob]

Last week I was scouring all over the web looking for information on LCDs as I was looking to pick up at least a 19". I kept on hearing about how bad TNs were, but yet whenever I tried to look for something at a price I could afford, I really couldn't find something non TN in my price range. I also noticed that a monitor I bought for an ex a few years back was listed as a TN, and I didn't recall thinking the image quality was that bad. So all that being said I went ahead and settled on a 19" Hanns-G from the Egg and so far I really like it. I guess for me it really came down to price.

 

[n7]

Originally posted by: jaqie

Originally posted by: MarcVenice
The stickied LCD thread says it's a TN panel, perhaps he's mistaken in the exact model # ?

According to the US site, there is only one AL2216W sold, the bd model, which apparently means black faceplate with 110v NEMA (standard US outlet config) plug.
The information gathered that you quoted seems to be from an out of country site, perhaps the one reviewed is not even sold in the USA. Acer's page does not specify the LCD type of the monitor, but specifies that the US version at least has a black case design, so there may indeed be a seperate US from foreign model internally as well as in case color/design.

It seems that there is some misinformation out there one way or the other on whether this is a TN or PVA LCD, whichever is true I am unsure of but all american-based sites seem to be saying PVA while foreign say TN.

It's not a PVA.

I've seen that one personally, & sold many of them.
It's a TN, like every other 1680x1050 22" in existence (that i'm aware of).

As is mentioned, the only 22" that aren't TN are some extremely expensive 1920x1200 ones.

TN have poor viewing angles, which results in color shifting, or what i'd call a total mind-f*ck when using in portrait mode (due to the very different colors shifting that the eyes see).
Granted, they've gotten better, & newer TNs are much better for viewing angles than old ones.

But that's an improvement of crap to less crappy, not to good.

Color accuracy is not good either, & due to the silly contrast ratio wars, while not a TN characteristic per say, exaggerated inaccurately vibrant color is often a result.

Obviously, most of the world uses TN quite happily, which is just fine.
Some people are less sensitive to their drawbacks, & they are generally a bit better for games, at least than most VAs.

But for someone who's very concerned about quality, they don't really cut it.


And apoppin, i'd love to be put in front of 50 unknown panel LCDs to tell which is which panel.

While you'd be trying to check if i'm accurate or not, i woulda already told you all of those that use TNs.
It might take me a bit longer to discern which are VA vs. IPS, but i'd bet i could determine that too given a bit of time.

Not saying everyone can see it, but it's ridiculously easy to tell what's TN vs. not.

Granted, i've seen hundreds of different LCDs in person, so i have a bit of an advantage, but TNs all suffer from the same drawbacks which are so noticeable to some of us.

 

[jaqie]

Originally posted by: n7
I've seen that one personally, & sold many of them.
It's a TN, like every other 1680x1050 22" in existence (that i'm aware of).

Thanks, now I know for sure. I admit to not having very in-depth knowledge of LCDs, but my experience with other LCDs prior to this AL2216W has been...disheartening. I got this one for $190 after rebate last Xmas at the local tigerdirect brick and mortar outlet store near me after looking it over, and it has markedly improved my opinion of LCDs. A few years back, I had paid $811 (incl. tax) for a samsung 192n, and I was horrified by the temporary burn-in effect it had (even the mfr site said it was a known problem with LCDs even though ive never seen another do that. and told me to !!turn it off for several days!! to remove the burn-in... how would you like to have to turn off your monitor for 3 days every five hours to use it?) ALso, my TE2000 (p3m 1ghz toshiba) was mediocre at best, so is the LCD in the dell inspiron 8200 I just acquired. This acer AL2216W seems to be a different class as far as picture quality, viewing angle, and contrast, so I assumed it may actually be another type of LCD tech and when I looked I saw it seemed to be... obviously it seems it isn't.

 

[Scotteq]

(1) I game - So a fast monitor is more important to me than an accurate one.

(2) TN monitors can be color calibrated too. It's not even vaguely hard to do.

(3) TN monitors are (less than) half the cost. Especially if you want a decent size one.

(4) If you want to watch movies, get a video card with an HDMI output and run that to your HD-TV. Done. If you were the least bit serious about your movies, you'd use an actual DVD player through your home theater system and leave the computer in the back room for the kids to play games on.



Now... If you are a pro or semi pro - Graphic artist, Designer, Videographer, Photographer etc, then it's not even a debate - You're going to get the most accurate (VA/IPS) monitor available because at that level it *is* important. You can/will spend up to stupid amounts of money doing it, too. And if you're serious, you will buy a hardware based calibrator (ColorEyes, Monaco, etc), if not take your entire system to a professional service. And you will do this at least annually, to compensate for drift.

Not to mention potentially using a workstation~type graphics card - ATI V86**, nVidia Quadro Plex/FX series, etc. Because you woulnd't play with cheap cards, and because a pro would know very well that gaming cards are optimized for speed and throughput. Not accuracy.


To most people, though, TN is fine. And Cheaper. And Faster.


my $0.02

 

[Quiksilver]

Originally posted by: qliveur
I'd say that the biggest and most legit gripe would have to be the viewing angles, especially vertical. I have an Acer AL2216W 22" TN right now, and that would definitely be my biggest gripe about it. You get what you pay for.

Same. I got the same monitor, the colors aren't too bad either, you really gotta study the screen to notice it for me.

 

[Jax Omen]

Scotteq, I only disagree with your point #4.

Not everyone watches movies in only one room. And implying that the computer is "for the kids to play on" is rather insulting. Besides, computers make fine DVD players.

Besides, buying a nice $700 monitor means I have no need to spend $1000+ on an HDTV. And I get way more benefit from the monitor than the TV could ever give me.

 

[Captante]

Originally posted by: apoppin

Originally posted by: Captante
People who are "anal" about moniters translates into people who did a few side-by-side comparisions and read many reviews of said moniters before buying ... although TN-panel LCD's have gotten better then they used to be, that isn't saying much because they used to be total crap.

Talk to people who either own both types or have done extensive viewing of both & then see if you can find a way to compare on your own. The problem you'll run into is that its very difficult to find a place with TN's set up next to other higher quality LCD's with true 8-bit panels since most people buy on price not IQ. Last year when I bought my BenQ FP241W I was able to compare it with the 22 inch TN BenQ at a trade show & the difference was extremely obvious, both in color reproduction & viewing angles ... I also compared the Gateway 24 & 21 inch M-PVA panels with the Gateway 22 inch TN model with the same results & in fact every 22 inch TN I've looked at has been at best a letdown.

Bottom line is that the only people you'll hear tell you that even the best TN's are as good as high quality IPS or M-PVA panels are those who only own a TN ... don't get me wrong, its fine with me if a TN is "good enough" for you, but when sombody tells you theres no downside to a 6-bit TN panel LCD you're being mislead.

Absolute nonsense

i bet i could set you up directly in front of 50 panels - TN/IPS/M-PVA or V-LSD - and you could not tell the difference

i bought 2 panels at a time; about 8 panels in side-by-side .. i doubt if you really did that, did you?
i settled on my current 20" 16x10 Samsung as best bang for buck at $135
- it had the *best black* and great color!
.. and these stupid IPS panels will vary greatly from screen to screen - even the next one off the same line the same day!
- so one will get a "good TN" and someone else will get a "Crap IPS" and they will make a comment judging the entire LCD line

it is ALL compromise

of course you can be anal .. i will gladly stick with my cheapie; you can feel better about paying 3x times more .. for the viewing angles

More like you can keep on telling yourself theres no difference if it makes you feel better ... all it does on my end is make me less likely to give credence to your opinion in the future.

Also if you had bothered to read the thread you would know that not only have I made the comparision many times, but I have a 22 inch TN on my desk next to a 24 inch M-PVA panel as I type this & the IQ difference is easy to see.

 

[apoppin]

Who said there is no difference ?

i see it clearly .. for me it is not worth 3x the price

as it is all *compromise* anyway
-i want my CRT back

 

[Continuity28]

Originally posted by: apoppin
-i want my CRT back

I want OLED.

 

[Oyeve]

Originally posted by: Continuity28

Originally posted by: apoppin
-i want my CRT back

I want OLED.

Hell yes!

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Continuity28

Originally posted by: apoppin
-i want my CRT back

I want OLED.

i want a properly set-up - with a "self-genesis and adaptive evolving" properly-programed - Holodeck out of ST:NG
-all for me .. i will create my own friends .. and say good-bye to this Matrix
.. i would still miss you all

 

[Miklebud]

I <3 my TN