What is so bad about profiling?

[ModerateRepZero]

to focus on one group does not mean to ignore all other signs.

i have no problem with profiling. even if they start profiling mid 20's white males.

Of course you don't have a problem with profiling, but that's because you find it difficult to accept that profiling will end up being more of a magic bullet by the advocates rather than a simple tool. As people have already pointed out, profiling based on race/ethnicity etc is tricky since people won't always appear as one expects, not to mention that terrorist groups such as Al-Qaeda have already recruited individuals who don't look Arab/Muslim at first glance. That poses a problem for ethnic profiling if one's convinced that Islamic fundamentalists are (all) Arab-looking....

On the other hand, someone constantly fidgeting, has hands in pocket with a noticeable weapon bulge, etc. is at least reason for suspicion.

Even if I was somehow convinced that racial/ethnic profiling was useful (which it generally isn't), it still bothers me that the police are now being deputized with Arizona's new immigration law to basically act as immigration/passport agents in addition to being a law enforcement.

 

[JockoJohnson]

it still bothers me that the police are now being deputized with Arizona's new immigration law to basically act as immigration/passport agents in addition to being a law enforcement.

Oh the irony....LAW enforcement agents going after people who come into the country ILLEGALly and someone has a problem with it.

 

[HomerJS]

When 50 yr old white guys on Wall Street start getting randomly stopped to have their paper files and computer records checked because they fit the profile of white collar criminals that had reeked havoc on our financial system, I'll go along.

 

[ModerateRepZero]

Oh the irony....LAW enforcement agents going after people who come into the country ILLEGALly and someone has a problem with it.

No you misunderstand me. I have no problem with law enforcement raiding companies hiring illegal aliens as workers, nor with someone's alien status revealed during a routine traffic stop. But it's arguably burdensome to make law enforcement de facto immigration agents and employ racial/ethnic profiling for immigration purposes (especially when they have enough on their plate), and from what little I can tell, nothing in the Arizona bill prohibits arrests based on traffic stops or interferes with illegal worker raids at businesses.

Cops aren't, and shouldn't be, INS clones.

 

[JockoJohnson]

No you misunderstand me. I have no problem with law enforcement raiding companies hiring illegal aliens as workers, nor with someone's alien status revealed during a routine traffic stop. But it's arguably burdensome to make law enforcement de facto immigration agents and employ racial/ethnic profiling for immigration purposes (especially when they have enough on their plate), and from what little I can tell, nothing in the Arizona bill prohibits arrests based on traffic stops or interferes with illegal worker raids at businesses.

Cops aren't, and shouldn't be, INS clones.

Agreed. I did misunderstand that portion. I see no problem if cops discover illegal aliens through routine traffic stops. However, I would hope that they didn't pull them over solely for that reason.

Also, I would love it if there were more raids on companies and the owners of these companies should suffer the consequences. They should be fined and jailed for knowingly hiring illegals.

As others have stated, if there is no work for the illegals, most of them won't be here.

 

[ahurtt]

Israel now employs behavioral profiling instead of ethnic profiling, and they have the safest airline in the world...

Have to wonder though...how do they decide who's behavior to profile? You can't profile everyone. You gotta narrow your sample somehow.

 

[BoomerD]

No you misunderstand me. I have no problem with law enforcement raiding companies hiring illegal aliens as workers, nor with someone's alien status revealed during a routine traffic stop. But it's arguably burdensome to make law enforcement de facto immigration agents and employ racial/ethnic profiling for immigration purposes (especially when they have enough on their plate), and from what little I can tell, nothing in the Arizona bill prohibits arrests based on traffic stops or interferes with illegal worker raids at businesses.

Cops aren't, and shouldn't be, INS clones.

I don't know anyone who would argue with the portion I bolded...but sadly, the US government won't step up to the plate and do the job, so why shouldn't the states take the job?
SOMEONE'S gotta fucking do it...

 

[CallMeJoe]

Have to wonder though...how do they decide who's behavior to profile? You can't profile everyone. You gotta narrow your sample somehow.

Seriously?

You observe everyone's behavior and concentrate on those whose behavior matches your profile, just as in ethnic profiling you look at everyone and then concentrate on those whose features match your suspect group.

 

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

I don't know anyone who would argue with the portion I bolded...but sadly, the US government won't step up to the plate and do the job, so why shouldn't the states take the job?
SOMEONE'S gotta fucking do it...

I might add that the AZ law gives cops the power to deal with immigration and to inquire into the immigration status. It's not like it assigns them to immigration tasks. It gives more power. That's it. It allows cops to pick up slack for INS agents if needed.

 

[ahurtt]

Seriously?

You observe everyone's behavior and concentrate on those whose behavior matches your profile, just as in ethnic profiling you look at everyone and then concentrate on those whose features match your suspect group.

Yeah seriously...How do you realistically (and effectively) monitor EVERYONE'S behavior? Race is easy to key off of to narrow your pool of potential suspects. Sure they can call it "behavioral profiling" and "say" that they're watching EVERYONE but know that they are watching the behavior of certain key groups of people whos demographics also overlap with certain other profiles *just* a little bit closer than others.

Profiling is innate in all of us...it's natural. It's unavoidable because it's completely subconscious and we're all doing it every day without even realizing it. And thank goodness for it for the human species would not have made it as far as we have today without this innate ability to accurately identify friend and foe with hostile intent.

 

[ahurtt]

The profiling argument is a red herring. It's the one argument progressives know they can make in regards to illegal aliens that has a chance of sticking. If progressives ruled the country to the degree they wish, our borders would be completely open, with manned centers every few miles, with sign-up sheets and hand-outs (in the appropriate language of course) for anyone that wished to enter the country for Medicare, Medicaid, SS, ADC and all other social programs available here in the U.S.

Anyone could come in that wanted to and anyone could leave, regardless of what they were carrying in or carrying out. People from countries that wish to kill us all because we're not Muslims, people seeking free benefits, people looking to commit crimes and leave, whatever, it wouldn't make a difference, in they'd come and out they'd go.

The upside to this is it would solve the illegal immigration problem because this country would collapse from the strain and then it would be no better than all the shithole places the people willing to break the law to get here were leaving behind. Thus, the incentive for anybody to want to come here would be removed. Problem solved. Sorry but as much as some would like to believe it, even the USA does not have the capacity to absorb all the poor or unfortunate but decent folks in the world who "just want a better life" (and are willing to circumvent the law to achieve it).

 

[CallMeJoe]

Yeah seriously...How do you realistically (and effectively) monitor EVERYONE'S behavior? Race is easy to key off of to narrow your pool of potential suspects. Sure they can call it "behavioral profiling" and "say" that they're watching EVERYONE but know that they are watching the behavior of certain key groups of people whos demographics also overlap with certain other profiles *just* a little bit closer than others.
Profiling is innate in all of us...it's natural. It's unavoidable because it's completely subconscious and we're all doing it every day without even realizing it. And thank goodness for it for the human species would not have made it as far as we have today without this innate ability to accurately identify friend and foe with hostile intent.

Reading comprehension check; observing is not monitoring. To use your terms, you observe everyone to determine who meets a profile then monitor those who meet that profile.

Do I need to use simpler terms?

 

[Moonbeam]

I can't see much of a difference between profiling and pattern recognition. I think if we couldn't profile a snake as a snake or a leopard a leopard we wouldn't be here.

I think the problem arises when we apply learned bigotry to our categories that we create a hell on earth. The function of pattern recognition is to keep from being bitten by a poisonous snake not to identify and kill every snake on earth. That would just cause a rat infestation.

 

[ModerateRepZero]

I see no problem if cops discover illegal aliens through routine traffic stops. However, I would hope that they didn't pull them over solely for that reason.

Also, I would love it if there were more raids on companies and the owners of these companies should suffer the consequences. They should be fined and jailed for knowingly hiring illegals.

As others have stated, if there is no work for the illegals, most of them won't be here.

No argument with the traffic stops, nor the companies. To a certain extent though, it's a pain to prove intent or turning a blind eye vs being sloppy in checking citizenship/work status. Not to mention that prices will be jacked up in certain industries once companies stop using cheap labor.

In an ideal world, there wouldn't be work for illegals, but as in every country, there's (legal) jobs that US citizens can't, or largely won't do (ie. fruit pickers, slaughterhouse workers).

I don't know anyone who would argue with the portion I bolded...but sadly, the US government won't step up to the plate and do the job, so why shouldn't the states take the job?
SOMEONE'S gotta fucking do it...

Difficult situation....on the one hand I can't argue with states taking the initiative when govt. either can't or won't take action, but it can easily lead to a slippery slope. If the govt. hadn't introduced revisions to its currency, could the states have banded together to being working on making more secure currency?

I can't see much of a difference between profiling and pattern recognition. I think if we couldn't profile a snake as a snake or a leopard a leopard we wouldn't be here.

I think the problem arises when we apply learned bigotry to our categories that we create a hell on earth. The function of pattern recognition is to keep from being bitten by a poisonous snake not to identify and kill every snake on earth. That would just cause a rat infestation.

As a practical matter the two seem indistinguishable, but perception-wise profiling usually conjures up singling individuals out by race, whereas pattern recognition sounds more scientific and "neutral".