I'm doing engineering at oxford. I saw this thread and was wondering if anyone can give a comparison between American exam qualifications and British A-level results. (I'm trying to guage the standard of entry to MIT)
Possibly so. BUT, I would maintain that it would make VERY little difference at that point. A bachelor's degree in an engineering/science discipline is NOT going to get you a very technical job these days. A good example of this is Lockheed Martin: at our recent job fair, they were hiring for their development team. They declined applications for BS degrees, and highly encouraged any MS applicants to enter their PhD-while-working program. Many technical jobs now just simply insist on graduate school. And there's a second consideration (which is why i point this out to ALL bachelor's-only pursuing people): you're going to get the same quality job if you go to your good state school as MIT with a BS. If you're qualified enough to go to MIT, you'll probably get a scholarship at your state school. At MIT, you'll be 120K in debt. You do the math.
You're right. Most are teaching colleges. But, I will admit, the BEST instruction that I have EVER seen at the undergraduate level (and there is an ENORMOUS difference, as those who have been to grad school can testify) was at my first college--a teaching one. Because think about this: you have to learn the basics. And that's ALL an undergraduate degree is. And the person who is going to teach the BASICS best is the person that wants to TEACH. But you're right in that most schools with a LARGE graduate program favor the graduate school. It simply brings in more money (I recently wrote a proposal for $8 million).
Oh, i certainly agree with you in that there are a lot of bright people at MIT. Believe me, I haven't met one person who goes to or went to MIT that doesn't reach up to a certain bar. Now I must admit, of the BRIGHTEST people I know in the engineering field, the results are VERY scattered. MOST of the people i know came from middle or upper/middle income families who simply couldn't pay--it had nothing to do with their abilities. Virtually ALL were in graduate school under a very accomplished advisor. And, at the PhD level, where you went to undergrad really doesn't matter--in fact, MIT is just like any other place... I've met good ones and duds.
One thing to remember: its actually not the SCHOOL you go to... its who you work for. My "school" (Virginia Tech) is a decent undergrad school (usually top ten, top fifteen), and they have lots of research money. The quality of education depends on your advisor. I wouldn't touch VT with a ten foot pole for CFD (MIT would actually be VERY good at that), but we have VERY strong composities and computational solid mechanics. Basically because of a few professors. And that's why I'm here.... a single professor who is widely known.
As far as your questions: 1) I maintain that if he's only going to get a BS, he's better off at a highly reputable state school (working hard, TRYING to learn) than going to MIT (which while a good school, probably won't TEACH him the basics any better) and being in a tremendous amount debt. 2) if he changes his emphasis, it won't matter.... plenty of people do on their way to grad school. I did in the middle of grad school--I was in precision engineering for my masters and now I'm in computational solid mechanics. Go figure. The best thing to do is go to a reputable school and get a good GPA (good GPAs are often viewed as a measure of well-roundedness, not intelligence).
All in all, MIT is a good school: if you've got the cash and the grades/motivation/accomplishments to go, definitely go. That's your decision. But definitely consider your alternatives--and remember, MIT is NOT the best school in everything. And remember, like my friend here says (and I use that word because I've found you willing to talk/discuss in a civil manner--unlike MANY of the people here): schools favor their graduate departments. And are often "graded" or "noted" as such.
My biggest thing with this thread is to talk about some of the common misconceptions about colleges. Its the same as the Athlon versus P4 argument: there is no easy solution. Period. The quality of your undergraduate education is far more dependent on your effort/motivation than anything else (once at a school of a certain caliber). So do your research and do what's best for YOU. If that's MIT, so be it. If its not, that can be just as admissible of a solution.
I'm pretty sure that MIT has "need blind" admissions.. as do most other top schools, meaning that having lots of money gives you no advantage for admission.
I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to go ahead and completely disagree with you on virtually everything you said in this post. I was at the institute for 5 years, and I don't know anyone who was even close to 120k in debt. I don't know anyone who was 60k in debt. I can only think or one or two people who were even 30k in debt. My parents have no money, did not pay a thing to MIT, and I graduated with under 15k in loans. With student interest rates around 4%, this is very managable, especially when I'm making 2x as much as my friends who went to state schools (in all fairness, that's 2x as much as my friends who actually have jobs.. most don't right now due to the economy). I have seen the coursework at MIT and at state schools, and there is no comparison. There are many companies who recruit at MIT who would not touch a state school with a 10 foot poll. They recruit strictly from top ivy league schools, MIT, stanford, caltech, etc.. There is a world of difference between MIT and state schools, and no one should let the sticker price of MIT deter them. Last I heard, the MIT endowment was around 6 billion or so, so there is enough financial aid money to go around. Unless your parents make $200+k/year, you won't be paying full price.
I have two friends currently seniors at MIT.... one with 55K in debt, the other with 87K. I was paid to go to school--I made a little over $15K while at NCSU.
As far as earning twice as much, I find that hard to believe... especially given these:
MIT salaries
Virginia Tech Computer Science salaries
These both have information on BS graduates in computer science. Engineering is similar at both schools as well, with VT at $44,000 and MIT $51,000.
Certainly MIT students from UNDERGRADUATE school are going to have higher AVERAGE salaries. They have a higher quality student on AVERAGE going in. I would expect that. I've never said that MIT doesn't have bright people--I certainly know that. I'm just saying that I have seen MANY very very bright people go to other schools and do very very well.
And this is the UNDERGRADUATE level. Things are FAR FAR FAR different at the graduate level. FAR different. This more depends on your personal accomplishments than "hey look, I have a diploma". Like I said in a previous post, I've met good and bad students from MIT at the graduate level. Keep in mind that you're not competing with "state school people" that you're used to (the friends from HS that couldn't have gotten into MIT).... its people who possibly could have (or might HAVE gotten in) that chose not to go, for their various reasons.
A LOT of people have thought that I am making fun of MIT or dismissing it or whatever. I will repeat: all I am saying is that NOTHING is cut and dried in the education business. NOTHING. MIT is a good school. Big surprise--they should be based on their reputation. Are they going to be the absolute BEST at everything? No.... that can easily be shown. But are they going to give you a good education as an undergrad? Definitely. Is it going to be a BETTER education? Well, that depends. On where you go (I would think an undergrad at UC-Berkeley's comp sci department might have a chance for a good education too), and MOSTLY your motivation. And how hard you're willing to work. And what you WANT to learn. Recall that going to MIT doesn't make you smart... LEARNING at MIT does. (as does everywhere else).
As far as earning twice as much, I find that hard to believe... especially given these:
MIT salaries
Virginia Tech Computer Science salaries
These both have information on BS graduates in computer science. Engineering is similar at both schools as well, with VT at $44,000 and MIT $51,000.
Certainly MIT students from UNDERGRADUATE school are going to have higher AVERAGE salaries. They have a higher quality student on AVERAGE going in. I would expect that. I've never said that MIT doesn't have bright people--I certainly know that. I'm just saying that I have seen MANY very very bright people go to other schools and do very very well.
And this is the UNDERGRADUATE level. Things are FAR FAR FAR different at the graduate level. FAR different. This more depends on your personal accomplishments than "hey look, I have a diploma". Like I said in a previous post, I've met good and bad students from MIT at the graduate level. Keep in mind that you're not competing with "state school people" that you're used to (the friends from HS that couldn't have gotten into MIT).... its people who possibly could have (or might HAVE gotten in) that chose not to go, for their various reasons.
A LOT of people have thought that I am making fun of MIT or dismissing it or whatever. I will repeat: all I am saying is that NOTHING is cut and dried in the education business. NOTHING. MIT is a good school. Big surprise--they should be based on their reputation. Are they going to be the absolute BEST at everything? No.... that can easily be shown. But are they going to give you a good education as an undergrad? Definitely. Is it going to be a BETTER education? Well, that depends. On where you go (I would think an undergrad at UC-Berkeley's comp sci department might have a chance for a good education too), and MOSTLY your motivation. And how hard you're willing to work. And what you WANT to learn. Recall that going to MIT doesn't make you smart... LEARNING at MIT does. (as does everywhere else).
I'm really not sure how accurate those numbers are, or where they even come from. Granted they're a few years old, but from what I saw they seem very low. I only know 2 people who started at under 40k, and I know a good dozen who started at $100+k/year. I'd say the average was more around $60k or $65k. And I've got a few friends who are a few years out now and are making $200+k/year. So 2x is not an exageration..
As to your friends being so in debt, they only way that can happen is if the school says that their parents have to contribute $X per year, and the parents decide to take out loans instead. You see, there's a limit to the amount of federal loans you can get. As you can see here, the self-help level is $5600/year. So the difference between the sticker price and $5600 is filled up through grants and parental contributions. Grants don't have to be re-paid. Some people opt to take out more loans instead of having their parents pay something, which I'm guessing is what your friends did. I don' t know many people who went that route, especially to the tune of $80+k in debt. Like I said, my parents don't make jack and I walked away less than $15k in debt. My brother went there too, and has even less in loans that I did.
I agree that the caliber of MIT graduate students vary, but mostly by department. Did you know that you can get a PhD in art from MIT? I've met a guy who did that, and nothing about him was impressive. Each department has their own requirements, and some are much easier to get into than others. Of course, how smart someone appears to be, and how well they do in classes is often different as well.. My point is that no one should let the sticker price of MIT stop them from going there. You don't meet too many poor MIT graduates. It's similar with doctors -- they often go (literally) $150+k in debt, and make next to nothing as residents, but have you ever met a poor doctor?
While we're on the rant about tech schools:
Make sure your going to engineering/tech school for the right reasons. Realize the material is gonna be much harder than what your peers are studying at libby arts school or whatever. If its about the money, make sure that's enough motivation to drive through through 4 years of rigorous school work.
I go to Ga Tech, and too many people come here for all the wrong reasons; and just end up leaving or switching to Management within their first year.
Realize these aren't exactly party schools, and that the Girl/Guy ratio sucks (unless its artificially inflated 'cause its a private school). College is way more than hitting the books... and its easy to be deprived here.
My suggestion, go to University of Michigan, or University of Illinois or Berkeley (if you can get in) 'cause at least if you hate engineering or computer science, you can find another major that suits you. Here at Ga Tech, its engineering, or management for the most part.
My plug for my school though: If your from Georgia, and you wanna be an engineer, this is the place to be. The state's gonna give you your first year on the house ('cause of HOPE scholarship) and you can easily graduate debt free from one of the best programs in the country. If your out of state... look elsewhere, this place is far too student-unfriendly (we're #2 on the list of most miserable students) to justify the 12k+ in tuition a year.
Make sure your going to engineering/tech school for the right reasons. Realize the material is gonna be much harder than what your peers are studying at libby arts school or whatever. If its about the money, make sure that's enough motivation to drive through through 4 years of rigorous school work.
I go to Ga Tech, and too many people come here for all the wrong reasons; and just end up leaving or switching to Management within their first year.
Realize these aren't exactly party schools, and that the Girl/Guy ratio sucks (unless its artificially inflated 'cause its a private school). College is way more than hitting the books... and its easy to be deprived here.
My suggestion, go to University of Michigan, or University of Illinois or Berkeley (if you can get in) 'cause at least if you hate engineering or computer science, you can find another major that suits you. Here at Ga Tech, its engineering, or management for the most part.
My plug for my school though: If your from Georgia, and you wanna be an engineer, this is the place to be. The state's gonna give you your first year on the house ('cause of HOPE scholarship) and you can easily graduate debt free from one of the best programs in the country. If your out of state... look elsewhere, this place is far too student-unfriendly (we're #2 on the list of most miserable students) to justify the 12k+ in tuition a year.
Originally posted by: bmd
1 place in one regional contest != own. Seriously though, very well done. No school out there (not MIT, not Caltech) is the "end all, be all" of colleges as someone else said a few posts up. Some are very good in certain areas while not as good in others. Find the school that's right for what you want to do. All I can say from personal experience is that being here at Caltech so far (Freshman here) has been incredible. The people, the profs, the campus and the house community have all been great and I'm having tons of fun. Is Caltech better than MIT? At some things, maybe. Is MIT better than Caltech? At some things, I guess. Is UCSD better than Caltech? Obviously they were in that contest. No school out there is #1 in everything and some schools that might not have incredible reputations have great departments too. Try to visit the school you want to go to so that you can get a feel for the campus, the students and the tradition and history of the school. In the end, it's somewhere you'll (probably) spend 4 years of your life, so find a place where you'd be happy. Is that ITT Tech? Is it MIT? Is it University of ____? Only you know.
My sister is a Freshman at Caltech this year too. As to other questions being posed, Caltech is in Pasadena, CA. Somehow I think my sister's acceptance was a bit of a fluke. She thinks so too. There was this one Intel Science Fair Semifinalist that was turned down, but I recall that she was awarded the award after she sent out her applications. My sister had a few extra-curricular activities, track, tennis, and a few math competitions. She wasn't valecdictorian either. She did get 800 on her math IIC and IC and Physics, but she scored in the low 700s for English. Her SAT I's weren't too hot either. I think she scored high 1400s. Caltech did accept another person from our school though, as a junior. This junior was on our school's team that reached the nationals at National Science Bowl and nationals of National Ocean Science Bowl and a bunch of other smaller competitions. She took the SAT I's twice, and got 1600 twice. She wanted to show her consistency.
As for that comment, I would say that there are plenty of UC Berkeley students that are just as qualified for those jobs. Although I'm sure overall UC Berkeley is no competition, but that's because they accept so many s tudents. It's still a top school though. It just doesn't make sense to go to MIT or CIT over UC Berkeley sometimes when in-state tuition is I think 5,000. Even if you have to pay one year of out-of-state tuition, it's still far cheaper. UC Berkeley is by no means blown out of the water by CIT or MIT. Somehow I would think that companies would search in top in-state schools like UC Berkeley instead of CIT or MIT because they are more than capable but they would be less prone to demand top pay. I also heard that Berkeley recently improved their cafeteria food quality. One less reason to choose Caltech over Berkeley for you connoisseurs.
. My sister tells me they have steak every week.pkomma, I completely echo your comments. The situation here at Virginia Tech is very similar (from what my undergrad students tell me). NC State was similar as well. Lots of guys, lots of miserable engineers.
And your absolutely right--a LOT of people go into engineering that really don't want to--they just like the prospect of money. Its something you have to LOVE to do.... engineering is one of the FEW majors where the graduates NEVER wish they were back in college.
And as far as GT being the school of choice in GA, you're absolutely right. MOST of the Southern states have a good engineering school in-state--and most of them are incredibly cheap. GA has GT, VA has VT, NC has NCSU..... that's how it goes. Most also have good liberal arts schools as well--but they're different schools entirely (UNC and UVA come to mind).
Also keep in mind that things in the South are frequently VERY different. Cost of living is MUCH cheaper here than in the northeast or California (esp. the Bay Area and SoCal).... but the downside to that is lower salaries. While this doesn't influence how much of a house you can buy--it frequently does influence how much your parents have to send you to school (and frequently, you need their credit to take out a fair number of loans, anyway). So that's why the southern states have very poor representation at private schools--you should see how many people from NC that go to Duke (its not as many as you'd think). Plus, we have some really good state-supported schools that cost very little (and that makes a BIG difference).
TuffGirl
Platinum Member
- Jan 20, 2001
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Oh my, in a lot of ways I'm like your sister! I was accepted to MIT instead with few extracurriculars, 18th in my class at a public high school, 720V/750M on my SAT's, all subpar to typical MIT standards. I thought the admissions staff was on crack the day they looked at my application, but then the same thing happened 2 years later when my sister was admitted and her credentials were very similar to mine. Her SAT's were even lower, like in the high 1300's.
EDIT: Also in regard to MIT's financial aid, it is all need-based and very fairly distributed, at least in my family's case. I eventually transferred from MIT to Rutgers, and the tuition for MIT with aid and loans was about the same as that for the state school without aid.
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