What is a LIVING WAGE? Representative Katie Porter Stumps JPMorgan Chase’s CEO with question about his own employee's salary

[[DHT]Osiris]

If this is a true story, and I have no reason to believe it is not, you got stupidly lucky.
For every one of your story there is like 10,000,000 others that did not get that lucky. You think it was your hard work that accomplished this, but you are wrong. The hard work was nothing but a prerequisite for it, the real accomplishment was the blind luck that allowed you to do all this. We can know this because we can see hundreds of thousands of people that worked just as hard, and many of them much harder, than you and still ended up in abject poverty. Many of them literally starving.

You managed to go years though a very, very narrow path without getting hit by even one of the million things that could have knocked you back down into the gutter. Oh, I'm sure you think you did this because you planned. But you can't plan for most of the real life gutting things that happen.

Selection bias. Same concept as 'they don't build them like they used to', because the only 'ones' still around are the ones that got lucky, or were built well.

 

[dyna]

I think the big call out here is the cost of housing. Typically in this scenario, somebody gets a roommate or roommates to split the cost. There are professionals that have to do this because of housing costs that make way more money than described in the OP. If Katie wanted to show less bias, she would have used national averages rather than one of the most expensive counties in the US.

 

[Indus]

I think the big call out here is the cost of housing. Typically in this scenario, somebody gets a roommate or roommates to split the cost. There are professionals that have to do this because of housing costs that make way more money than described in the OP. If Katie wanted to show less bias, she would have used national averages rather than one of the most expensive counties in the US.

More people live in NY/ NJ/ CT and CA and TX than in "average" places.

 

[Jaskalas]

I think the big call out here is the cost of housing. Typically in this scenario, somebody gets a roommate or roommates to split the cost. There are professionals that have to do this because of housing costs that make way more money than described in the OP. If Katie wanted to show less bias, she would have used national averages rather than one of the most expensive counties in the US.

1 bedroom, and you speak of roommates?
I imagine those scenarios typically involve a person or couple per bedroom and is not valid for the 1 bedroom example.

Also, it's quite pleasing to know that my policy is mathematically sound for "one of the most expensive counties". I expect it to falter or face steeper challenges in the most expensive locales.

 

[darkswordsman17]

Selection bias. Same concept as 'they don't build them like they used to', because the only 'ones' still around are the ones that got lucky, or were built well.

I think they call situations being used like the one person's anecdote "surviorship bias" (which is a form of selection bias, I'm not correcting you, merely offering that there's a more specific term even).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias

 

[ondma]

Curious.
The "example" is underwater by $644 per month. With costs demonstrated as $3,069.00 VS an income of $2,425.00 a month. That's huge. And who the !@#$ only has $100 in utilities? Hello, electric bill anyone?

So... how does my plan address this scenario?

Basic Income would be fully funded by a 25% tax. Let us assume you'll need some other taxation on top of that. I'll round it off at around 33% taxation on her income. Her monthly income shoots up to $2,958.08. Better, but she'll still be in the hole by $111/mo. That is where the second and third aspects of my plan come into play. For housing. My UBI pays into a nest egg for all children. At age 18 they'll have access to $216,000 in savings. A couple would have $432,000. I think that'd cover the price of the apartment, in cash. Out here in Alabama you'd have a high end McMansion.

My plan aims to cut out (or greatly reduce) house payments. If it was eliminated, then this parent would not be paying $1,600/mo. She'd have a net savings of $1,489/mo. But that's going to occur for new couples 18 years after UBI is implemented. What about the short term, what about tomorrow? Federal Housing Loan program. FHL takes over as the lender, and landlord. You "pay" them for your "rent". A chunk of UBI is taken out and applies to to your home. Let's say FHL would charge her $330/mo. That's less than the original $1,600/mo, with a net savings of $1,159/mo.

My economic plan saves these people.

Current:
View attachment 5255

With UBI and FHL:
View attachment 5256

This sounds good, but there is no free lunch. Yes, this (theoretical) person comes out ahead, because raising the tax on her income costs her less than the additional 1000 dollars per month she is being given. But the money has to come from somewhere. People with a higher income would obviously come out with less spendable income per month. Even then, I seriously question whether raising the tax to 33% across the board would even come close to funding this 1000 dollar per month payment, much less the housing subsidy. And your "nest egg" plan doesnt make sense either. You say they would have 216,000 dollars by age 18. And a couple would have twice that. But a couple could have no children, so the way you state it makes no sense. In any case that is another 12,000 dollars per year per child (or person, whatever you mean). So we are already up to 24,000 *per year* without counting the cost of the housing subsidy. Again, I ask where this money is coming from?

 

[skull]

If this is a true story, and I have no reason to believe it is not, you got stupidly lucky.
For every one of your story there is like 10,000,000 others that did not get that lucky. You think it was your hard work that accomplished this, but you are wrong. The hard work was nothing but a prerequisite for it, the real accomplishment was the blind luck that allowed you to do all this. We can know this because we can see hundreds of thousands of people that worked just as hard, and many of them much harder, than you and still ended up in abject poverty. Many of them literally starving.

You managed to go years though a very, very narrow path without getting hit by even one of the million things that could have knocked you back down into the gutter. Oh, I'm sure you think you did this because you planned. But you can't plan for most of the real life gutting things that happen.

Luck had nothing to do what it, its hard work, intelligence and courage. Your bound to face challenges along the way, I felt like I was going to have a heart attack more than a couple times along the way. I've seen guys quit and go back to a day job for less than I've went through. I see new guys try to hack it in my trade all the time, theres always a spot open for new comers. They come and go for numerous reasons. The two biggest are sub par work and they are terrible with money. In HVAC theres always slow times like now when its a comfortable 70 out and no one needs heat or air. These guys rake in the dough when its in the teens then blow it all and are broke when its slow, then can't make their truck payments etc. Which I've purposely stayed away from for that reason along with hoarding my cash.

 

[skull]

Clearly, you made a whole post whining about it.

The only whining in here is you cry babies that think life in the richest country in the world in the 21st century is too tough.

 

[skull]

Yall need a little motivation in here.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Luck had nothing to do what it, its hard work, intelligence and courage.

If you don't see all the luck it took to make it then you are not as smart as you think you are.

Your bound to face challenges along the way,

And some of those challenges can be literally impossible to overcome. You were lucky enough not to face any of them.

I felt like I was going to have a heart attack more than a couple times along the way.

But you didn't so you were able to continue on. Some were not so lucky, and ended up losing their job because of a lengthy hospital stay, and then were physically weakened unable to put in the hours of work to make it afterward. This would be mostly about genetics, not hard work.

You managed to make it years without any major medical, mental, or financial emergency that make it literally impossible to continue. Things like a storm knocking a tree over and destroying that truck you saved up for, right in the middle of one of those lean times. Or any one of a million job site accidents that left you unable to work for a considerable amount of time.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Don't go doing something rational like expecting people to live within their means. That would be asking WAY too much.

god forbid you find a cheaper place to live - or split a room. What do I know? I'm just someone that paid $400 in rent for a split apartment for 4 years in college.


inb4 "You don't understand! She has a child! You can't expect them to make rational spending choices or advance in their career! A full upscale apartment is MINIMUM living requirements!"

Cry me a river.

Why is she paying $250/month on a 2008 sounds like ridiculous terms she agreed to there.

You left out having a kid as a single mom before you can afford it. Seriously every other mom is single these days and they act like its some kind of badge of honor, no bitch your stupid. Why'd you have a kid you can't afford with a man that won't stick with you and help you take care of it or at least pay child support.

She'd be set here though 1 bedroom is easily found at $600/month.

This as well.

 

[fskimospy]

Don't go doing something rational like expecting people to live within their means. That would be asking WAY too much.

god forbid you find a cheaper place to live - or split a room. What do I know? I'm just someone that paid $400 in rent for a split apartment for 4 years in college.


inb4 "You don't understand! She has a child! You can't expect them to make rational spending choices or advance in their career! A full upscale apartment is MINIMUM living requirements!"

Cry me a river.

This as well.

I don't think America would like the outcome if people made solely calculated financial decisions on whether or not to have kids. If they did, we would have a LOT fewer kids and our demographic decline would skyrocket in intensity. One of the primary problems facing our country today is that having kids has become prohibitively expensive as the cost of child care has gone through the roof. (and will continue to disproportionately increase basically until we invent robot nannies)

If current wages aren't enough for the overwhelming majority of people to support a child we are going to be very sorry as a country in the not so distant future.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

If you don't see all the luck it took to make it then you are not as smart as you think you are.


And some of those challenges can be literally impossible to overcome. You were lucky enough not to face any of them.



But you didn't so you were able to continue on. Some were not so lucky, and ended up losing their job because of a lengthy hospital stay, and then were physically weakened unable to put in the hours of work to make it afterward. This would be mostly about genetics, not hard work.

You managed to make it years without any major medical, mental, or financial emergency that make it literally impossible to continue. Things like a storm knocking a tree over and destroying that truck you saved up for, right in the middle of one of those lean times. Or any one of a million job site accidents that left you unable to work for a considerable amount of time.

Constantly telling people "It's more difficult than you think" and "You will never understand because you haven't been in my position" is the epitome of destined to fail. When all you do is say "woe is me. The world is against me. I can't do anything." Then yeah, you're going to keep failing. It's your destiny. Also - you're wrong. Whatever you think is unique to you - it's not. Plenty of people went through the same shit. The difference is many others said "I don't want to be like this anymore" and actually did something about it.

Also FWIW - Based on Skull's past postings of his life here on AT - I'm fairly sure he DOES know what it's like to face some hard challenges in life. So I would say you're pretty wrong there, but I don't want to speak on his behalf.

For fucks sake, I live below the means of this dumbass. I drive a beater 2006 car. We bought a house that was WAY below our means @ $550/month payment. Our gross household income is over $250k as of now, and I still find no reason to buy a new car, buy a new home, or spend money in general.

 

[hal2kilo]

Constantly telling people "It's more difficult than you think" and "You will never understand because you haven't been in my position" is the epitome of destined to fail. When all you do is say "woe is me. The world is against me. I can't do anything." Then yeah, you're going to keep failing. It's your destiny. Also - you're wrong. Whatever you think is unique to you - it's not. Plenty of people went through the same shit. The difference is many others said "I don't want to be like this anymore" and actually did something about it.

Also FWIW - Based on Skull's past postings of his life here on AT - I'm fairly sure he DOES know what it's like to face some hard challenges in life. So I would say you're pretty wrong there, but I don't want to speak on his behalf.

For fucks sake, I live below the means of this dumbass. I drive a beater 2006 car. We bought a house that was WAY below our means @ $550/month payment. Our gross household income is over $250k as of now, and I still find no reason to buy a new car, buy a new home, or spend money in general.

Keep selling those Carnegie institute pamphlets.

 

[Jaskalas]

I seriously question whether raising the tax to 33% across the board would even come close to funding this 1000 dollar per month payment...

As of 2018....

• Personal Income in the United States is $17.5 trillion dollars.
• Population 327 million.
• That's $53,737 per person.

Basic Income of $12,000 /year is a mere 22% of that. Just open excel and you can verify this yourself.

...much less the housing subsidy.

The goal of a Federal Home Loan program would be just that, a loan. Incurring a significant up front debt that residents with Basic Income are guaranteed to pay back over time. It would be purpose driven to recoup the costs of a property over 30-50 years. If we charge $330/mo per resident adult, then a couple could afford up to $400k / 50 years, but I'll admit I don't have it all worked out. Maintenance likely eats into that value, lowering quite a bit. But tackling housing costs is a key component of helping Americans. We need to step in where it makes financial sense.

And your "nest egg" plan doesnt make sense either. You say they would have 216,000 dollars by age 18. And a couple would have twice that. But a couple could have no children, so the way you state it makes no sense.

The nest egg belongs to the children in this case. But they are no longer children when they turn 18. And if young adults pair up, as they tend to do, then that is the couple I speak of. People will start their lives with $216k a piece. A huge step towards tackling housing / transport / college affordability built right into the 22% cost of UBI. That aspect of it is transformative for society.

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

I think they call situations being used like the one person's anecdote "surviorship bias" (which is a form of selection bias, I'm not correcting you, merely offering that there's a more specific term even).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias

Nope, you're absolutely right. Got my nomenclature wrong.

 

[ondma]

As of 2018....

• Personal Income in the United States is $17.5 trillion dollars.
• Population 327 million.
• That's $53,737 per person.

Basic Income of $12,000 /year is a mere 22% of that. Just open excel and you can verify this yourself.



The goal of a Federal Home Loan program would be just that, a loan. Incurring a significant up front debt that residents with Basic Income are guaranteed to pay back over time. It would be purpose driven to recoup the costs of a property over 30-50 years. If we charge $330/mo per resident adult, then a couple could afford up to $400k / 50 years, but I'll admit I don't have it all worked out. Maintenance likely eats into that value, lowering quite a bit. But tackling housing costs is a key component of helping Americans. We need to step in where it makes financial sense.



The nest egg belongs to the children in this case. But they are no longer children when they turn 18. And if young adults pair up, as they tend to do, then that is the couple I speak of. People will start their lives with $216k a piece. A huge step towards tackling housing / transport / college affordability built right into the 22% cost of UBI. That aspect of it is transformative for society.

A "mere" 22% of personal income. Right. That is 3.85 trillion dollars. Do you know what the total estimated personal income tax receipts are for 2020? Only 1.8 trillion dollars. That's right only half of the "mere" 3.8 trillion that you need. Further the total estimated tax revenue for 2020 including medicare, retirement, and corporate taxes is 3.6 trillion dollars. That's right-- to fund this one program would require the entire estimated tax revenue for fiscal year 2020. And you are still not accounting for the huge up front cost for the government to buy up all the outstanding mortgages and lower the payments to 330.00. Maybe we should just tax everyone at a hundred percent and let the government dole it back out as they see fit.

 

[Indus]

A "mere" 22% of personal income. Right. That is 3.85 trillion dollars. Do you know what the total estimated personal income tax receipts are for 2020? Only 1.8 trillion dollars. That's right only half of the "mere" 3.8 trillion that you need. Further the total estimated tax revenue for 2020 including medicare, retirement, and corporate taxes is 3.6 trillion dollars. That's right-- to fund this one program would require the entire estimated tax revenue for fiscal year 2020. And you are still not accounting for the huge up front cost for the government to buy up all the outstanding mortgages and lower the payments to 330.00. Maybe we should just tax everyone at a hundred percent and let the government dole it back out as they see fit.

Except the top 60 corporations don't pay anything in taxes. How much would their share be?

We already know the 1% own more than the lowest 50% combined.

Gotta factor that in before assuming stuff.

 

[Sunburn74]

Constantly telling people "It's more difficult than you think" and "You will never understand because you haven't been in my position" is the epitome of destined to fail. When all you do is say "woe is me. The world is against me. I can't do anything." Then yeah, you're going to keep failing. It's your destiny. Also - you're wrong. Whatever you think is unique to you - it's not. Plenty of people went through the same shit. The difference is many others said "I don't want to be like this anymore" and actually did something about it.

Also FWIW - Based on Skull's past postings of his life here on AT - I'm fairly sure he DOES know what it's like to face some hard challenges in life. So I would say you're pretty wrong there, but I don't want to speak on his behalf.

For fucks sake, I live below the means of this dumbass. I drive a beater 2006 car. We bought a house that was WAY below our means @ $550/month payment. Our gross household income is over $250k as of now, and I still find no reason to buy a new car, buy a new home, or spend money in general.

Did you also walk to school in the snow 10 miles with no shoes? Maybe you built the school and roads as well with your bare hands unlike the rest of us lazy bastards.

I love how people talk about doing things like paying their way through college and etc only to learn hey your total college cost was like 4000 dollars because things were cheap then and income inequality was at its lowest levels in America.

 

[ondma]

Except the top 60 corporations don't pay anything in taxes. How much would their share be?

We already know the 1% own more than the lowest 50% combined.

Gotta factor that in before assuming stuff.

I didnt assume anything. If you dont believe my statistics I can provide a link. Whether one believes major corporation should make up the difference is a different question all together, and one the proponent of this plan did not even address. I believe the corporations and rich individuals *should* pay more, but whether the additional amount for this proposal is reasonable is a very open question. It is basically a very severe income redistribution plan. If you believe that is the government's duty, that is your privilege, but I dont like the idea of the government doing that on such a large scale, and also dont trust them to do a "good" job of it.

 

[Jaskalas]

A "mere" 22% of personal income. Right. That is 3.85 trillion dollars. Do you know what the total estimated personal income tax receipts are for 2020? Only 1.8 trillion dollars. That's right only half of the "mere" 3.8 trillion that you need.

So you've moved from denial to... anger? I guess that's a start. But this outrage over "zomg taxes!" seems to be further denial.

Need I remind you, with UBI alone the single mom making $35k/year picked up an extra $500/mo... and that's WITH the increased taxes. Then if we used a portion of that UBI to automatically pay into a theoretical home loan, her net gain was as high as $1,803/mo.

Basically, Americans are so poor these days, thanks to the GAP, that a program meant to act as a safety net and RESTORE lost wages to the working class, can increase taxes and STILL yield MORE money back into the hands of a majority of Americans. And that's not counting the elimination of housing payments that even the middle class would enjoy, and the feeling of relief and security where, if they ever lost a job, it wouldn't mean the end of their homes or a risk to their lives. Food is still placed on the table no-matter-what.

The safety net's absorption of catastrophic financial ruin is a benefit to everyone that should not be underestimated. Even if you are momentarily too rich to directly benefit on monthly payments.

You are free to think a fully realized safety net is outrageous, but we think wage slavery denies people both freedom and safety. The status quo is outrageous, and it's past time we acted to fix it.

 

[darkswordsman17]

The only whining in here is you cry babies that think life in the richest country in the world in the 21st century is too tough.

You've literally done nothing but whine in this thread. I get that being stupid seems to be a common trait with the contradiction that is your minds (where you somehow are both incredibly self-absorbed yet lack almost complete actual self awareness), but sorry you don't get to cry and then claim its everyone else that is crying for disagreeing with you. They're not whining, they're explaining why you're wrong and then you just respond with more whining. So change your diaper you crybaby, or better yet stop your crying and try to actually learn something.

But don't expect people to put up with your whining or your pretending that your grade school level economics understanding resolves the biggest problem with the economic situation that has been happening. If only all us average people just balanced our budget, the rampant attempt to redistribute the wealth to the ones that need it the least, well that wouldn't even be a problem! And if we all just sat at home miserable, eating ramen, we'd be so filthy rich! Plus, I'm sure that would totally fix issues like when the fiscal policy of modern Republicans leads to major financial recessions and people lose their retirement plans because of some greedy investment banker. They should've save a few more pennies! Who cares if rich people game the tax system and commit fraud? Wouldn't matter if only common folk would pull themselves up by their jockstraps!

I do have to laugh how you're pretty much bragging about being a complete loner (and yet too stupid to notice how that alone impacts your economic situation, and its not because "women be shopping!" its because if you have family members that have medical conditions, or kids, that well, you're gonna be paying tens of thousands a year for that). I'm guessing your lone wolf lifestyle is likely not by choice (doubt you'll have to worry about women wanting to stick around you for very long; frankly I have a hunch that most of them would only willingly spend any time around you if you were deliberately paying them to do so).

 

[nOOky]

If you don't see all the luck it took to make it then you are not as smart as you think you are.


And some of those challenges can be literally impossible to overcome. You were lucky enough not to face any of them.



But you didn't so you were able to continue on. Some were not so lucky, and ended up losing their job because of a lengthy hospital stay, and then were physically weakened unable to put in the hours of work to make it afterward. This would be mostly about genetics, not hard work.

You managed to make it years without any major medical, mental, or financial emergency that make it literally impossible to continue. Things like a storm knocking a tree over and destroying that truck you saved up for, right in the middle of one of those lean times. Or any one of a million job site accidents that left you unable to work for a considerable amount of time.

Of course there are people with situations that they simply can't overcome, and truly not their fault such as disease or illness etc. But don't tell me that many people able bodied aren't the cause of their own lack of success. Most of these people make horrible financial and relationship decisions, and you'll have to excuse those that don't want to finance their stupidity. Most people I know have zero ussue helping the truly needy, it's when you lump in the rest of the fucktards that cause their own situations that people balk about donate to their cause.

 

[sandorski]

Of course there are people with situations that they simply can't overcome, and truly not their fault such as disease or illness etc. But don't tell me that many people able bodied aren't the cause of their own lack of success. Most of these people make horrible financial and relationship decisions, and you'll have to excuse those that don't want to finance their stupidity. Most people I know have zero ussue helping the truly needy, it's when you lump in the rest of the fucktards that cause their own situations that people balk about donate to their cause.

Is "horrible" a moral failing, luck failing, education failing, a combination of those, or perhaps something else?

 

[dank69]

Assuming we are not going UBI yet and we actually want to address minimum wage intelligently, Bernie and company need to realize it is a bit more complicated than just raising the minimum wage across the board. Forcing companies to pay students $15 an hours to spit on peoples' burgers is bad policy.

No. We need a two-tiered minimum wage, one for part-time/temporary work and another for full-time/career work. Then you need solid regulations preventing companies from forcing people who want full-time jobs into part-time positions just so they can save money.

This of course doesn't even address the issue of people expecting someone to pay them a livable wage for doing work that monkeys could be trained to do. The reality is that most jobs are going to be automated away no matter what we do. All the more incentive to start planning a transition to UBI, IMO.