What is a livable wage and should Government be responsible?

[BoberFett]

A lot of rich people got by hook or crook. Pretty good deal when you can bankrupt your banks, rip off old ladies selling them garbage packaged loans, and get 700b from tax payers and trillions mainline from Fed like Blankfine at GOLDMAN gets and tons more bankers. Pretty good deal to be friends of Bush and get no bid contracts. etc etc etc.

I do hate them because its not a free market at the tippy top but is for me. When I lost over 100K holding the bag on two mortages after bust none bailed me out while big home builders did get bailed.

I welcome a truly free market but they fear it.

That's a fair point, but I don't blame that on the wealthy, I blame that on the government.

 

[buckshot24]

I don't think raising minimum wages 12 cents an hour (like one of Shane's opinion pieces he linked) is going to have much of an effect at all. Raising it a dollar isn't going to be "catastrophic" either.

Plus the minimum wage isn't raising the "basement" in the sense I was talking about. I wasn't talking about minimum wage in the first place, shanty brought that up. I think the minimum wage causes other problems beside any inflation that it may cause. That isn't relevant to this thread.

However if we do raise a minimum wage to something "livable" like the 12.50 an hour that was suggested earlier then these effects are going to be more noticeable. That would be a $5.25 an hour raise. That is much more significant than any historical precedent so we don't know what that sort of an increase would cause.

One thing seems certain. Businesses would have to offset the added cost in some way. Maybe by hiring fewer employees so each worker would have to be more productive. Maybe by increasing prices on their services or goods. Maybe by increased business because people have more money to spend. Or maybe by accepting fewer profits to stay in business. Or maybe the American worker gets fucked in the ass by more companies moving overseas because the government artificially raises labor costs in this country.

 

[buckshot24]

No, you dolt, I'm simply a realist. You're living on another planet if you honestly believe they'll take it from their profits -- which is why I keep asking you where it will REALLY come from.

You know the answer, but you also know that said answer destroys your entire f'n argument.

This isn't fantasyland.

Even in lefty dreamland if a business would simply accept less profit that makes the industry less desirable for people to get into which eventually causes fewer jobs for the poor that they were trying to help.

 

[ivwshane]

Even in lefty dreamland if a business would simply accept less profit that makes the industry less desirable for people to get into which eventually causes fewer jobs for the poor that they were trying to help.

Yes and in righty dream world businesses stop doing business because they are making less profit. Lol!

 

[buckshot24]

Yes and in righty dream world businesses stop doing business because they are making less profit. Lol!

You dimwitted shit head. That isn't what I said you hanging dingleberry.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

As he said, raising the minimum wage wouldn't necessarily lead to an increase in prices. If companies thought that they could raise prices by a certain amount then they would have already done so.

The laws of supply and demand don't suddenly change just because a minimum wage is introduced or increased.

there's this little thing called competition in a free market.

raise your prices just a tad, and your competitor takes your sale.
it's not hard to understand.

 

[Fern]

-snip-
However if we do raise a minimum wage to something "livable" like the 12.50 an hour that was suggested earlier then these effects are going to be more noticeable. That would be a $5.25 an hour raise. That is much more significant than any historical precedent so we don't know what that sort of an increase would cause.

One thing seems certain. Businesses would have to offset the added cost in some way. Maybe by hiring fewer employees so each worker would have to be more productive. Maybe by increasing prices on their services or goods. Maybe by increased business because people have more money to spend. Or maybe by accepting fewer profits to stay in business. Or maybe the American worker gets fucked in the ass by more companies moving overseas because the government artificially raises labor costs in this country.

Or, as in the case of fast food and similar type restaurants, businesses would simply close for lack of sales and people would lose jobs.

I know that I already find food restaurants rather expensive for what they offer.

Fern

 

[Fern]

Yes and in righty dream world businesses stop doing business because they are making less profit. Lol!

That's quite possible.

No offense intended, but many such as yourself seem oblivious to the fact that businesses aren't free. You have to pay for them. The monthly payment for the purchase of you business is, in almost all cases, never deducted on the P&L. I.e., actual 'cash' profit is often much less that the "profit" amount.

When you can't make the payments on what you purchased what happens? That's right, it is taken away from you. When it's a business that usually means it closes.

Fern

 

[ivwshane]

That's quite possible.

No offense intended, but many such as yourself seem oblivious to the fact that businesses aren't free. You have to pay for them. The monthly payment for the purchase of you business is, in almost all cases, never deducted on the P&L. I.e., actual 'cash' profit is often much less that the "profit" amount.

When you can't make the payments on what you purchased what happens? That's right, it is taken away from you. When it's a business that usually means it closes.

Fern

Let me know when businesses stop making record profits and worker productivity declines and then maybe I'd concede to your point.

 

[Veliko]

there's this little thing called competition in a free market.

raise your prices just a tad, and your competitor takes your sale.
it's not hard to understand.

All you've done here is agree with what I said:

As he said, raising the minimum wage wouldn't necessarily lead to an increase in prices. If companies thought that they could raise prices by a certain amount then they would have already done so.

The laws of supply and demand don't suddenly change just because a minimum wage is introduced or increased.

 

[Veliko]

That's a fair point, but I don't blame that on the wealthy, I blame that on the government.

Good grief.

So when the wealthy do something, you blame the government.

When the government do something, who do you blame?

 

[Veliko]

No, you dolt, I'm simply a realist. You're living on another planet if you honestly believe they'll take it from their profits -- which is why I keep asking you where it will REALLY come from.

You know the answer, but you also know that said answer destroys your entire f'n argument.

This isn't fantasyland.

Once again you've failed to actually address the things he has said.

What is your response to this part, for instance:

Well when ford raised his employees wages it some how magically made him more profit.

 

[Veliko]

That's quite possible.

No offense intended, but many such as yourself seem oblivious to the fact that businesses aren't free. You have to pay for them. The monthly payment for the purchase of you business is, in almost all cases, never deducted on the P&L. I.e., actual 'cash' profit is often much less that the "profit" amount.

When you can't make the payments on what you purchased what happens? That's right, it is taken away from you. When it's a business that usually means it closes.

Here's another little selection of equally fascinating facts:

Sky is blue.
Water is wet.

Of course, no-one has argued against those two points but then again no-one has argued against the things that you said either.

 

[Lithium381]

Will you admit there are some employees that are simply not worth minimum wage. .. asking them to be productive at "living wage" is a progressive dream

 

[Veliko]

Will you admit there are some employees that are simply not worth minimum wage. .. asking them to be productive at "living wage" is a progressive dream

What is the point you're even trying to make here?

If someone isn't any good at a job, then they won't stay employed for long.

 

[buckshot24]

Will you admit there are some employees that are simply not worth minimum wage. .. asking them to be productive at "living wage" is a progressive dream

Those people are simply un-hireable. The current law makes it either illegal or you have to take a loss on their employment.

 

[buckshot24]

What is the point you're even trying to make here?

If someone isn't any good at a job, then they won't stay employed for long.

Thanks to the government.

 

[buckshot24]

Once again you've failed to actually address the things he has said.

What is your response to this part, for instance:

It's not a universal observation. In one particular instance raising wages increased profit. Doesn't mean it will always raise profit or that it usually raises profit.

 

[Veliko]

It's not a universal observation. In one particular instance raising wages increased profit. Doesn't mean it will always raise profit or that it usually raises profit.

No-one claimed it does.

But Palehorse utterly failed to respond to anything that ivwshane said.

 

[Veliko]

Thanks to the government.

Sorry, what?

 

[ivwshane]

You dimwitted shit head. That isn't what I said you hanging dingleberry.

Yes I know you said that, that's why I was making fun of you. Business don't go out of business because they are making less profit (now if they aren't making any profit that's a different story).

But what's funny is that you think business would slow down when the very people who work in the service industry who would be getting a raise would also be the same people who utilize (ie eat fast food) the service industry the most. So in all likelyhood businesses would see their sales increase.

That was fords thinking anyways but what does he know?

 

[michal1980]

Yes I know you said that, that's why I was making fun of you. Business don't go out of business because they are making less profit (now if they aren't making any profit that's a different story).

But what's funny is that you think business would slow down when the very people who work in the service industry who be getting a raise would also be the same people who utilize (ie eat fast food) the service industry the most. So in all likelyhood businesses would see their sales increase.

That was fords thinking anyways but what does he know?

if business A) is making more profit then B). The investors will move their money from b to a

 

[palehorse]

No-one claimed it does.

But Palehorse utterly failed to respond to anything that ivwshane said.

Bullshit. Shane has not made a single reasonable or logical point in this entire discussion, and he lives in some fantasyland wherein the CEOs will personally fund the increase in wages by a) taking a pay cut, or b) accept lower profits.

This isn't the early 20th century, either, so his Ford example is also unrealistic (or simply unlikely) in today's economic environment.

Let me guess... you two are neighbors in Fantasyland, aren't you?

 

[Veliko]

Bullshit. Shane has not made a single reasonable or logical point in this entire discussion, and he lives in some fantasyland wherein the CEOs will personally fund the increase in wages by a) taking a pay cut, or b) accept lower profits.

This isn't the early 20th century, either, so his Ford example is also unrealistic (or simply unlikely) in today's economic environment.

Let me guess... you two are neighbors in Fantasyland, aren't you?

And here we are again with your floundering inability to respond with anything other than misplaced angst and aggression.

You've even contradicted yourself - first you say Shane hasn't made a single reasonable or logical point, and then you go on to talk about his Ford example, which in itself is a reasonable point to talk about when discussing things like the impact of the minimum wage.

This may not be the early 20th Century, but it's the early 21st Century and the gap between the rich and the poor seems to be edging back towards how it was during the early 20th Century.

Given that history has shown, time and time again, that when that gap gets too large the poor decide that enough is enough and start chopping off rich people's heads.

So, suggesting that CEOs and businesses accept lower profits is actually in the best interests of everyone. The Steve Jobs wannabes can either do it willingly, or they can wait until the shit hits in the fan in 5/10/20 years - which it will - when people are setting fire to their houses and ransacking their bank accounts.

 

[palehorse]

So, suggesting that CEOs and businesses accept lower profits is actually in the best interests of everyone. The Steve Jobs wannabes can either do it willingly, or they can wait until the shit hits in the fan in 5/10/20 years - which it will - when people are setting fire to their houses and ransacking their bank accounts.

I really hate repeating myself, but... how do you plan to force the "evil" corporations and executives to accept lower pay and profits?

Are you just going to squeeze your fists and eyes closed, real right, and make a wish? Or, do you have something much more totalitarian in mind?

This should be good...