What if I like war?

chambersc

Diamond Member
Feb 11, 2005
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So I had just finished my first round of studying for an upcoming test (session lasted 3 hours) and as I was walking out of the library, a group of rebble-rousers came marching up from around the corner carrying a banner and a mega-phone. This would have been the highlight of my day had it not been for the two religious zealouts that were immediately behind me shouting to the group that had formed. I believe they were berating anyone and anything not affiliated 100% with Jesus. But I digress.....

So this group of young pseudo-hippies comes around the corner led by a nazi-like charge -- employing flagrant imagery, hysterical rants (about ending imperialism here on campus), and commanding attention. As they were walking/marching by and chanting "Hey hey, ho ho, Imperialism has got to go!" I took a brief second to reflect on their views. After my brief moment of introspection was done, I turned to a friend who was standing next to me and said, "What if I like war? Does that make me bad or make them good?" This wasn't too pleasing to the crowd who were now coincidentally walking towards the zealouts. They cast daggers at me while I marvelled in the bomb that was to follow. Unfortunately for the story, I didn't stay around to find out what happened but I did hear the strom like siren of the bullhorn wail as I was walking away.

Back to my original point -- is war so wrong? If one were to simply trivialize the deaths of all involved per side and assign a simple "1" in the "negative" column, what other profound negatives are there? Sure there is residual resentment (evidenced in WW1) and a general immasculating feeling for the losing side but think of all the positives there are! An advent of new technology invariably comes out during or after the war in a vain attempt to belay more wars or to to fight them more efficiently. Isn't the ultimate goal of war to remove the deaths and solve problems peacefully? If we are to assume that the deaths that are associated with war are negative, wouldn't the eliminating of said deaths be a positive?

Just a few of the things I was thinking about when the perfect storm collides.

BTW, this is the group I was referring to http://www.ucfsds.com/
 

FoBoT

No Lifer
Apr 30, 2001
63,084
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fobot.com
killing our enemies is ok with me

the best defense is a good offense, right? so they want to kill us? i say we kill them first, in their own land, before they bring the war to the USA
 

chambersc

Diamond Member
Feb 11, 2005
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I wanted to refrain from making the snide comments about their atire -- oh boy could I have -- but that's a guy. Complete with cut off jeans picked up from their "free store." No, I'm not joking. There really are people like this.

Originally posted by: FoBoT
killing our enemies is ok with me

the best defense is a good offense, right? so they want to kill us? i say we kill them first, in their own land, before they bring the war to the USA

I don't know if this is a loaded statement/question but I'll naively assume it's not. I completely agree with this statement. Although I have a pretty selective definition of the term "enemy."
 

So

Lifer
Jul 2, 2001
25,923
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Originally posted by: chambersc

I wanted to refrain from making the snide comments about their atire -- oh boy could I have -- but that's a guy. Complete with cut off jeans picked up from their "free store." No, I'm not joking. There really are people like this.

Originally posted by: FoBoT
killing our enemies is ok with me

the best defense is a good offense, right? so they want to kill us? i say we kill them first, in their own land, before they bring the war to the USA

I don't know if this is a loaded statement/question but I'll naively assume it's not. I completely agree with this statement. Although I have a pretty selective definition of the term "enemy."

What the frack is a free store? By the looks of 'him', free store is hippie code talk for 'dumpster'
 

TheoPetro

Banned
Nov 30, 2004
3,499
1
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man these psudohippies are FVCKING ANNOYING! At almost every party here there is a group of them. And they sit in the corner, smoke weed, and argue politics. YOURE AT A GOD DANG PARTY HAVE FUN! If they ever try to engage you in a conversation run. Dont say anything to them. Logic is so far beyond them it isnt funny.
 

TheoPetro

Banned
Nov 30, 2004
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Originally posted by: So
Originally posted by: chambersc

I wanted to refrain from making the snide comments about their atire -- oh boy could I have -- but that's a guy. Complete with cut off jeans picked up from their "free store." No, I'm not joking. There really are people like this.

Originally posted by: FoBoT
killing our enemies is ok with me

the best defense is a good offense, right? so they want to kill us? i say we kill them first, in their own land, before they bring the war to the USA

I don't know if this is a loaded statement/question but I'll naively assume it's not. I completely agree with this statement. Although I have a pretty selective definition of the term "enemy."

What the frack is a free store? By the looks of 'him', free store is hippie code talk for 'dumpster'

yup and not only do they take the clothing from the dump they get their smell from the dump too
 

chambersc

Diamond Member
Feb 11, 2005
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Originally posted by: So
< SNIP >

What the frack is a free store? By the looks of 'him', free store is hippie code talk for 'dumpster'

From their website: All goods at the free store are the items which people no longer desire. Once someone is ready to throw a commodity away, the Free Store offers an alternative: a method of giving away that which you do not want and perhaps finding something else of personal use. The Free Store also thrives on the products of grocery stores and local markets which would otherwise be thrown away as they are no longer profitable, but remain useable.
 

So

Lifer
Jul 2, 2001
25,923
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Originally posted by: chambersc
Originally posted by: So
Originally posted by: chambersc

I wanted to refrain from making the snide comments about their atire -- oh boy could I have -- but that's a guy. Complete with cut off jeans picked up from their "free store." No, I'm not joking. There really are people like this.

Originally posted by: FoBoT
killing our enemies is ok with me

the best defense is a good offense, right? so they want to kill us? i say we kill them first, in their own land, before they bring the war to the USA

I don't know if this is a loaded statement/question but I'll naively assume it's not. I completely agree with this statement. Although I have a pretty selective definition of the term "enemy."

What the frack is a free store? By the looks of 'him', free store is hippie code talk for 'dumpster'

From their website: All goods at the free store are the items which people no longer desire. Once someone is ready to throw a commodity away, the Free Store offers an alternative: a method of giving away that which you do not want and perhaps finding something else of personal use. The Free Store also thrives on the products of grocery stores and local markets which would otherwise be thrown away as they are no longer profitable, but remain useable.

ROFL! They're actually eating from dumpsters.
 

CVSiN

Diamond Member
Jul 19, 2004
9,289
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Originally posted by: FoBoT
killing our enemies is ok with me

the best defense is a good offense, right? so they want to kill us? i say we kill them first, in their own land, before they bring the war to the USA

yup!
 

chambersc

Diamond Member
Feb 11, 2005
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Originally posted by: So
Originally posted by: chambersc
Originally posted by: So
Originally posted by: chambersc

I wanted to refrain from making the snide comments about their atire -- oh boy could I have -- but that's a guy. Complete with cut off jeans picked up from their "free store." No, I'm not joking. There really are people like this.

Originally posted by: FoBoT
killing our enemies is ok with me

the best defense is a good offense, right? so they want to kill us? i say we kill them first, in their own land, before they bring the war to the USA

I don't know if this is a loaded statement/question but I'll naively assume it's not. I completely agree with this statement. Although I have a pretty selective definition of the term "enemy."

What the frack is a free store? By the looks of 'him', free store is hippie code talk for 'dumpster'

From their website: All goods at the free store are the items which people no longer desire. Once someone is ready to throw a commodity away, the Free Store offers an alternative: a method of giving away that which you do not want and perhaps finding something else of personal use. The Free Store also thrives on the products of grocery stores and local markets which would otherwise be thrown away as they are no longer profitable, but remain useable.

ROFL! They're actually eating from dumpsters.

No, not really. To be fair, the food part isn't AS disgusting as it sounds. What stores determine is unusable is FAR different then our opinion. I believe dateline/nightline/w/e did a story on it some months ago in NY. These people would get COMPLETELY SEALED foods from bakeries and then take it and give it to the homeless. There was absolutely nothing wrong with it (wasn't moldy/spoiled/etc) but the store, for whatever reason (there was no hidden thing in this. The store's standards were/are just very high), would throw out perfectly good food. I can see their point on this.



Or I could be COMPLETELY wrong and they ACTUALLY eat out of the dumpsters. IDK nor do I care.
 

vi edit

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Oct 28, 1999
62,484
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Why is war bad?

Because of collateral damage. It's not just soldiers being killed, it's innocent civilians that really want nothing to do with the issue that get killed too.

Because it costs more than just lives. It's costing us about 2 billion a week to fund this little party in the sand. That debt will follow us forever.

When we are at war politicians use it as a bargaining chip or emotional leverage to pass bills and laws that we would otherwise not agree to.

It's not just lives that are lost...it's sons, daughters, fathers, husbands, ect that are being lost. With the disaster in Iraq still raging on, what are we gaining from that?
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
20,577
432
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Sometimes a bunch of killing and breaking sh!t is the most humane solution to a problem. You don't sing songs to fight cancer, you cut it out with a scalpel so the rest of the body can be saved.
 

TheoPetro

Banned
Nov 30, 2004
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Originally posted by: yllus
Sometimes a bunch of killing and breaking sh!t is the most humane solution to a problem. You don't sing songs to fight cancer, you cut it out with a scalpel so the rest of the body can be saved.

OOOO WHOS THE CANCER??? WHOS THE CANCER??? you finish that analogy right now mister
 

yllus

Elite Member & Lifer
Aug 20, 2000
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Originally posted by: TheoPetro
Originally posted by: yllus
Sometimes a bunch of killing and breaking sh!t is the most humane solution to a problem. You don't sing songs to fight cancer, you cut it out with a scalpel so the rest of the body can be saved.
OOOO WHOS THE CANCER??? WHOS THE CANCER??? you finish that analogy right now mister
MUSLIMS ARE

WTF? :p It seemed pretty complete to me. Sometimes to only recourse is a bit of measured violence in order to stave off a whole lot more violence.
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
11
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Originally posted by: vi_edit
Why is war bad?

Because of collateral damage. It's not just soldiers being killed, it's innocent civilians that really want nothing to do with the issue that get killed too.

Because it costs more than just lives. It's costing us about 2 billion a week to fund this little party in the sand. That debt will follow us forever.

When we are at war politicians use it as a bargaining chip or emotional leverage to pass bills and laws that we would otherwise not agree to.

It's not just lives that are lost...it's sons, daughters, fathers, husbands, ect that are being lost. With the disaster in Iraq still raging on, what are we gaining from that?

You're answering a question about war generally by talking about one war specifically. But there have been others; what about those? The Civil War helped end slavery in the US; was it bad? WWII stopped Hitler; was that bad? The Korean War saved at least half of Korea from living under a communist dictatorship currently headed by a nutjob likely starving his own people; bad?
I agree, war is bad. But sometimes, inaction is worse.
 

SoulAssassin

Diamond Member
Feb 1, 2001
6,135
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0
If you like war so much why not go volunteer for the Army? Or do you not like it that much?
 

sygyzy

Lifer
Oct 21, 2000
14,001
4
76
You would gain a lot more respect if you could write in a manner that didn't poke fun or insult the other characters in your story. I suppose you are posting in hopes of gathering opinions to your hypothetical/philosophical question but it sounds more like a childish rant to me. Finally, you call them Nazi's. And you said they wanted to stop imperialism. I am not sure I see the connection here. Imperialism is the practice of extending your power and beliefs normally through conflict. I don't think I'd necessarily consider the Nazi's imperialists but if you do, then between America and The Rest of the World, one would take the cake for the title.
 

mordantmonkey

Diamond Member
Dec 23, 2004
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Originally posted by: yllus
Originally posted by: TheoPetro
Originally posted by: yllus
Sometimes a bunch of killing and breaking sh!t is the most humane solution to a problem. You don't sing songs to fight cancer, you cut it out with a scalpel so the rest of the body can be saved.
OOOO WHOS THE CANCER??? WHOS THE CANCER??? you finish that analogy right now mister
MUSLIMS ARE

WTF? :p It seemed pretty complete to me. Sometimes to only recourse is a bit of measured violence in order to stave off a whole lot more violence.

yes, all muslims are a cancer. way to go generalization man. that's like saying all christians are xenophobic zealots bent on world domination. oh wait, maybe you have a point.
 

chambersc

Diamond Member
Feb 11, 2005
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Originally posted by: Tom
You might feel different if you are the one getting blown to bits.

Actually, I wouldn't.

Originally posted by: SoulAssassin
If you like war so much why not go volunteer for the Army? Or do you not like it that much?

Since I'm a rational human being, I can be empathetic to different sides and don't merely need to "go volunteer for the Army" to know what it's like to have this understanding. You should try it sometime.
Originally posted by: sygyzy
You would gain a lot more respect if you could write in a manner that didn't poke fun or insult the other characters in your story. I suppose you are posting in hopes of gathering opinions to your hypothetical/philosophical question but it sounds more like a childish rant to me. Finally, you call them Nazi's. And you said they wanted to stop imperialism. I am not sure I see the connection here. Imperialism is the practice of extending your power and beliefs normally through conflict. I don't think I'd necessarily consider the Nazi's imperialists but if you do, then between America and The Rest of the World, one would take the cake for the title.
Huh?

I never called them Nazis. Infact, I made a conscious effort not to call them Nazis. Let me quote myself:

So this group of young pseudo-hippies comes around the corner led by a nazi-like charge -- employing flagrant imagery, hysterical rants (about ending imperialism here on campus), and commanding attention.

I called them "pseudo-hippies" and described their actions as "nazi-like." Comprehend english much?
 

rivan

Diamond Member
Jul 8, 2003
9,677
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Sadly, I don't see the cancer analogy really being apt for the long term solution. Unless you're willing to commit genocide, that's not a valid strategy, because in many parts of the world, you killing a guy means his uncles, his cousins, his kids, and any extended family I didn't name will have a high probability of wanting to kill you back. It's the whole eye-for-an-eye justice thing... and while I hate coming of as a hippy, it just leaves the whole world blind.

Long term, you have to have diplomatic solutions. Sadly, in too many cases, it takes violence to get one or both sides ready to talk sense.
 

Martin

Lifer
Jan 15, 2000
29,178
1
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Originally posted by: chambersc
Back to my original point -- is war so wrong? If one were to simply trivialize the deaths of all involved per side and assign a simple "1" in the "negative" column, what other profound negatives are there? Sure there is residual resentment (evidenced in WW1) and a general immasculating feeling for the losing side but think of all the positives there are! An advent of new technology invariably comes out during or after the war in a vain attempt to belay more wars or to to fight them more efficiently. Isn't the ultimate goal of war to remove the deaths and solve problems peacefully? If we are to assume that the deaths that are associated with war are negative, wouldn't the eliminating of said deaths be a positive?

You are exceptionally naive and stupid. Wars aren't fought for peace or to stop future wars, they are fought because one side wants to dominate the other.

But if you beleive fighting wars is good and it prevents future conflicts and saves lives, then you must be a an even bigger fan of genocide and ethnic cleansing. After all, homogenious societies are more stable than multiethnic ones and eliminating an entire group of people is the surest way to make sure you never fight with them again. You must be really mad that Hitler couldn't kill all the Jews, after all, look at the conflicts that could have prevented!

And you tech argument is flawed as well. Any technological progress during a war can be made just as well during peaceful times, if only people were willing to fund scientific projects. Let me give you ane example: The manhattan project cost approx $20 billion in 2006 dollars. By contrast the war in Iraq has cost around 330B (so far). Some of the premier reserach projects in the world today are the LHC and ITER, a combined cost of around 25B euros. Imagine if 330B was spent on alternative fuels research instead.. oil and the middle east would be as relevant as cotton and central africa.
 

chambersc

Diamond Member
Feb 11, 2005
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Originally posted by: Martin
Originally posted by: chambersc
Back to my original point -- is war so wrong? If one were to simply trivialize the deaths of all involved per side and assign a simple "1" in the "negative" column, what other profound negatives are there? Sure there is residual resentment (evidenced in WW1) and a general immasculating feeling for the losing side but think of all the positives there are! An advent of new technology invariably comes out during or after the war in a vain attempt to belay more wars or to to fight them more efficiently. Isn't the ultimate goal of war to remove the deaths and solve problems peacefully? If we are to assume that the deaths that are associated with war are negative, wouldn't the eliminating of said deaths be a positive?

You are exceptionally naive and stupid. Wars aren't fought for peace or to stop future wars, they are fought because one side wants to dominate the other.

But if you beleive fighting wars is good and it prevents future conflicts and saves lives, then you must be a an even bigger fan of genocide and ethnic cleansing. After all, homogenious societies are more stable than multiethnic ones and eliminating an entire group of people is the surest way to make sure you never fight with them again. You must be really mad that Hitler couldn't kill all the Jews, after all, look at the conflicts that could have prevented!

And you tech argument is flawed as well. Any technological progress during a war can be made just as well during peaceful times, if only people were willing to fund scientific projects. Let me give you ane example: The manhattan project cost approx $20 billion in 2006 dollars. By contrast the war in Iraq has cost around 330B (so far). Some of the premier reserach projects in the world today are the LHC and ITER, a combined cost of around 25B euros. Imagine if 330B was spent on alternative fuels research instead.. oil and the middle east would be as relevant as cotton and central africa.
That exclamatory statement was more sarcastic than anything, really. I'm not "WAR! WAR! WAR!" but rather am making a case for it not being bad. It's not that I would consider it great but rather not bad.

The technology example hinges on the notion on whether or not that you believe the eventual outcome of wars is peace. My argument was simply that the end product of war would be eventual peace. I define peace, for the purposes of this argument as being, "when no human is killed through war." I leave the notion for wars to continue for an infinite time but without death. Infact, I envision a war being fought through the minds of people or through their technology etc.

I see your point about the Manhattan Project and essentially agree with it. To be fair, the atom wasn't split by the Manhattan Project, though. The MP just constructed a vehicle to deliver the payload of the split atom. The MP was realitvely unimportant in the broad scheme of things -- sure it ushered in a new weapon, killed xx people, blah blah. Sure the progress would be made just the same during "peace" but not with the sense of urgency or with the same enthusiasm as experienced during war.

About your first sentence, please reread what I said:

Isn't the ultimate goal of war...

I did not say the ultimate goal of a war. You believe that war is an end of itself whereas my whole argument is that war is a means to an end. War, to me, is the only way to achieve peace.