What if billions of people are wrong?

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JupiterJones

Senior member
Jun 14, 2001
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So i suppose the 4.5 billion years of earth before us, god was just dicking around? 'practicing'?? To make humans??? No offense to anyone, but I don't think this species is going to make it. The way we are destroying are planet, if we do survive as a species, we will probably be the worst plague ever to hit the universe.

Actually, we don't know what God was doing prior to the events of Genesis 1:2. We do know that the universe was here prior to this account, being created "in the beginning", whenever that was. At the beginning of the "first" day the heavens and the Earth were already here. It seems that the Earth was subject to a great catastrophe.

In Genesis 1:2 the Hebrew word for Without Form is "tohu". The Hebrew for void is "bohu". In Isaiah 45:18 the Bible says that God did NOT create the world "tohu". Isaiah is making it clear that God did not create the Earth "tohu va bohu", but it became "tohu va bohu". The state of the world in Genesis 1:2 is due to changes after creation.

In the Genesis account there are only three instances of the word "bara", i.e. creation from nothing. The first is in Genesis 1:1. The second is in 1:21 concerning animals, and the third is in 1:27 concerning man. Every other act in the Genesis account concerns the rearrangment of material that is present from the earlier creation from nothing back "in the beginning". Even with plants, God said for the Earth to "bring forth" rather than creation from nothing. Plant life would seem to have survived the catastrophe.

Scripture is silent as to what existed prior to this catastrophe.
 

PistachioByAzul

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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That being said, if when you consider that the Koran was written 600 years after the Bible and is based on what the Bible says you will recognize that the Koran is logically invalid.

The "logic" behind that has yet to be established. I explained already that it's just as logical that the Bible was incomplete to begin with. If you approach it with underlying prejudice of course you're going to see things clearly from one side.

Maybe you haven't verified your sources? Maybe you're wrong and the Jewish guy across the street is right. How can you learn anything when you already believe yourself to know enough. Why is it not suprising that religion always ultimately comes down to "I'm right and everyone else is wrong". That's what everybody thinks, and everybody has "logic" and "evidence" to back it up.

Back to Hindu, I haven't found an educational site that doesn't put the estimate between 2000-4000BC, so until there's any evidence otherwise, why would there be any reason to doubt that? However, it would seem that the scripture only goes back to 1000BC, so perhaps Bible scripture pre-dates Hindu scripture. We have a huge religion (and bigger if you consider it's offshoots, Buddhism and Jainism, among the bigger ones) that goes back to the same time period if not pre-dating it, that still thrives today. They don't even think in our terms, so your "evidence" means nothing to them, and theirs means nothing to you. That's where humility comes in, transcending absolutism.
 

mellondust

Senior member
Nov 20, 2001
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If you believe, are wrong, and die, it's no big deal. If you don't believe, are wrong, and die, it's a big deal.
 

petrek

Senior member
Apr 11, 2001
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"How can you learn anything when you already believe yourself to know enough."

Engine, I know enough to stand up for what I know, I don't know enough to stand up for what I don't know. It's not like I'm debating something I haven't researched and thought extensively about since I was a child. The reason I have an opinion on the subject is because I have studied it and have drawn conclusions based on what knowledge I have accumulated over my lifetime. The fact that you have been disagreeing with me implies that your opinion on the subject is different from mine, and also implies that you believe you are right and I am wrong.

There is no point in having a debate with someone who is not willing to defend their position. So I ask you, are you interested in having a rational debate?

Sincerely
Dave

PS: A rational debate involves one side giving point(information that backs up their side) and counterpoint(information that contradicts the other sides point), if one side gives point and the other side gives anythingispossiblehowdoweevenknowifweexistdoIhavefingerswhyismycarblueisblueacolororamIredlikethecarpetisredorbeigeyahmaybeitsbeigeoristhatjustpigmentmaybelightrefractionmaybegreenwhoknowswhoseeswhocaresIdon'twanttothinkaboutthisissuewithanyseriouspointpoint the debate is useless.
 

PistachioByAzul

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
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I'm sorry that I have been shifting around from idea to idea, my position all along has been that the only "logical conclusion" regarding creation that we can make is that one does not exist. I also contend that one need not exist in the first place.
 

WageSlave

Banned
Sep 22, 2000
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nef


you either believe in god or you dont,

thesim = a belief in a god
atheism = the absence of belief(not necesarrily disbelief, and yes that is an important distionction)

agnosticism makes a claim about knowldge, not belief. You can believe in God and also believe that it is not possible to know wether God exists or not, and vice versa, it is simply a claim about knowledge. So you are either and agnostic atheist, or an agnostic theist...

before you argue this point, check your history. The term agnostic was coined(im sorry I cant remeber by who, but I can look it up) somewhat as a joke, in reference to the gnostics, and a-gnostic is a negation of the gnostic concepts. It asserts an inability to know, over the gnostic idea of inherent knowledge.

nef
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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Well there you have it. Once you get your definitions down, the problem of existance is solved. But........
 

linuxboy

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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the problem of existance is solved. But........

...we have yet to solve that fearful and awesome question of " why are there 10 hot dogs to a pack while buns come 8 to a pack"

Cheers ! :)
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,744
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I heard somewhere, linuxboy, that the larger question is, 'How do they get those eight big tomatoes in that itty-bitty can?".

Petrek, I don't want to debate with you because I suspect your motives. I would rather explore questions like what would it mean if you were wrong. It's not exactly like I would prefer you didn't believe in God. I just wish you were flexible and could make room for others so they could make room for you. I think you need to believe what you do for fear of what it would mean to be wrong. I just don't think that what you fear is real. It's all part of the bars on your jail.
 

xirtam

Diamond Member
Aug 25, 2001
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When I read some of the stuff in here, I get the image of this annoying woman on TV, pointing her finger and whining, "Why can't we all just get along???"

Moonbeam, how can you tell petrek to make room for others when you've already put him in jail?
 

gohan

Member
Dec 20, 1999
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Just got dumped because i'm agnostic.
she told me that she cant imagine someone not believing in christ. now she thinks i'm a bad person. sigh....:frown:
wont even return my calls
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,744
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Xirtam, you have already told me that you are in the same jail, so it's not like it's not a roomy one. I think, if you read what I wrote, you should see that the jail you are in is not one I put you in, but one created by your own imagination.

I refer, of course, since what seems obvious to me seems to sail by so many, to your fear of moral relativity, and your, I think, false faith that it stands of falls depending on whether or not there is a God out there.
 

Nocturnal

Lifer
Jan 8, 2002
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yet again, NART.

well anyways, like ive stated in all the other NART thread's, why do you even care. why do you let this take up so much of your time (hey you say, it doesnt take up much of my time!) but yet it does. you take the time out of your day to argue about whether or not something is real or not.

how about you argue over if you'll be alive tomorrow. you can never be certain 100% that you'll be alive tomorrow. it's probable that you will but, but not for certain.

nobody is forcing any religion down your throat. if you dont like it, then why dont you simply state that you dont like it and for the person who is shoving it down your throat to STFU. simple as that. you don't need to go all crazy and start a new thread about it because someone said to believe in god. if anyone tells you that you're going to hell because you don't believe in god, and if that truly offends/affects you, just try to ignore it. as long as they're not putting a gun to your head, and saying to believe or they'll shoot you (like they did in the older days) then it's all good right? YOU dont believe that you will go to either hell/heaven then why care?

you'll never be able to proove that god exists/doesnt exist. it's as simple as that. you'll never know.

so for now, just be certain that you'll live your life as you do every day, and be a good person, and be happy and not worry whether or not you're going to heaven or hell. or whether or not you're going to be some where after you die.

peace guys :)
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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goham, a truly sad story.

Metaphor, You actually state this in all the NART threads? Why do you even care? Why do you let this take up so much of your time?
 

Nocturnal

Lifer
Jan 8, 2002
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<< goham, a truly sad story.

Metaphor, You actually state this in all the NART threads? Why do you even care? Why do you let this take up so much of your time?
>>



i really havent let it bother me all that much. i just started posting it it the NART threads tonight actually.

i guess ill stop. i just felt like saying something lol.

no flames plz! ktnx!
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,744
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Metaphor, your point is as valid as any. I just wanted to be sure you recognized the inherent irony and thought about it. We all seem to want to say something. The question is why.
 

JupiterJones

Senior member
Jun 14, 2001
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Metaphor

well anyways, like ive stated in all the other NART thread's, why do you even care. why do you let this take up so much of your time (hey you say, it doesnt take up much of my time!) but yet it does. you take the time out of your day to argue about whether or not something is real or not.

The reason I do is a desire to answer legitimate questions posed by people seeking the truth. Sometimes I start threads, but with the ultimate goal of answering a question that has been previously asked. On occasion I do so to improve my ability to express ideas that I hold to be true and beneficial to everyone. I also tend to try to answer rhetorical questions, knowing that the person asking isn't really seeking truth, but someone else reading the thread might be.

I have never understood why some people react in a hostile fashion (not you) to another person's attempt to save lives. If Christians are right, then their attempts at evangelism are motivated by a desire to see others avoid unnecessary death. This is the equivalent of someone throwing a live preserver to someone else that they think is drowning.


Moonbeam

Petrek, I don't want to debate with you because I suspect your motives. I would rather explore questions like what would it mean if you were wrong. It's not exactly like I would prefer you didn't believe in God. I just wish you were flexible and could make room for others so they could make room for you. I think you need to believe what you do for fear of what it would mean to be wrong. I just don't think that what you fear is real. It's all part of the bars on your jail.

How can a personal relationship with God be considered jail?




 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
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PastorDon, I don't have any problem with a personal relation to God. It'w when that relationship gets thrown out into the world as 'Jesus is the only way' that I have a problem. Then it becomse my personal relationship is better than your personal relationship. What's the feeling behind that, I'm gonna save you but first you got to dump your 1000 lb of cabbage and buy mine?

I think that exclusive claims are distructive to the purpose of religion which I also happen to think is the awakening of a profound and practically unknown experience of love, becomming so good at emulating Christ that you can't tell what is Him and what is you.

I happen to think of Christ as a potential state of being, not a person. He who enters into that state is Christ. In that sense it couldn't get much more personal. :D

Just my opinion.
 

JupiterJones

Senior member
Jun 14, 2001
642
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Then it becomse my personal relationship is better than your personal relationship. What's the feeling behind that, I'm gonna save you but first you got to dump your 1000 lb of cabbage and buy mine?

And here is the confusion.

First, no other "religion" is about a personal relationship with God; fellowship with the Creator; being His friend and brother. This is one of the unique promises of Christianity.

Second, you don't dump cabbage to know God. What cabbage dumping goes on occurs afterwards. I've known people who DID believe, but would not approach God because they didn't want to give up...(insert thought/idea/habit here). What they failed to realize, and I think that you do too, is that God doesn't require you to give up your "cabbage" to know Him. He will work all that out with you, on a personal basis, later.

Have you ever asked Him to make Himself known to you?
 

linuxboy

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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First, no other "religion" is about a personal relationship with God; fellowship with the Creator; being His friend and brother. This is one of the unique promises of Christianity.

Eh.... "I am the Beloved and the Lover is my veil..." I don't see how it gets much more personal than that, it goes to that deep sexual knowledge that was part of mesopotamian civilization in experiences of the divine. A personal objectification of a figure can get pretty messy when one considers possible motivations as babbled by people like Freud.

I admire your persistence and actually share it to some extent if this bloody problem of exclusivity didn't rear its ugly head and was in severe contradiction with not only an understanding of my old self but the new self as well. I question this claim of exclusivity and the sort of personal relationship as only found in a Christian theology. I question it because I know it to be false from my encounters with peoples from all walks of life and from different cultures. It was easy for me to assure reality with such claims of exclusivity until I put everything that I wanted to be true and actually looked at the world around me to find that not only in myself but in others. And so, I really question the self-assurance and indignation or "justified anger". At the source, there is a fountain of love. My book may be better than your book but if that's true, it still doesn't signify that this means anything. It is still meaningless. And don't even start the standard arguments that it is the selfishness and assertions of man in his evil and sinful state that prompts him to reject the Word of God. Noble and may be accurate but me and not-me yell out in pain from hearing such divisive language. The products of faith are health, joy, love, temperance, pridence, and hope of the affirming dynamics. I certainly would love to say that your claim of ALL other religions not involving a personal relationship, but the thing is, I just made up linuxboyanity and it involves a personal relationship so I dunno, seems like you're in error, although I may be wrong.

Second, you don't dump cabbage to know God.

Yes you do. One has to, unless the major theologians and my interpretations are wrong. An act of grace requires a movement. Movement requires some shifting of cabbage and to achieve what you claim is an exclusive personal relationship, one needs to get rid of cabbage, lamentably only to have it be replaced by the "right" kinda stuff.


What cabbage dumping goes on occurs afterwards. I've known people who DID believe, but would not approach God because they didn't want to give up...(insert thought/idea/habit here).

I say again that holding a certain belief is useless. Holding the proposition A or ~A or having that preposition attitude does not imply a mental state. Outward behavior cannot speak for the internal state of a person. That is what it means to not judge. The counterargument to this is that we can experience others' internal states. And I say to you that this is beyond judgment. What does matter to me, and I think to MB, is what sort of state and change any sort of phenomenon causes. I cannot claim an apple and an orange are differerent because I suspect they are eventually made out of the same sort of stuff. Holding some preposition attitude is useless in itself. Faith without works is dead, in other words. Yet I contend that by this very same reasoning, a claim of exclusivity in beliefs is kinda useless. It certainly is needed in most cases considering that we understand in symbols and with language and that the relationship between language, propositional attitudes, and internal states is so close that it really is needed to make any sort of movement toward peace.

Of course you object that grace is an external force, not caused by acts, but a sort of gift that comes freely to those who ask. I respond that asking is still not necessary for gifts and that a thought or holding a belief really is nothing if the end result is so utterly equal that one cannot make a distinction prima fascie and sees it as one upon experiencing others, and hence being able to judge while not judging.


What they failed to realize, and I think that you do too, is that God doesn't require you to give up your "cabbage" to know Him. He will work all that out with you, on a personal basis, later.

It is certainly fitting with the idea of grace, but you are somehow in error, I think. The world is divided. Or as you may claim, it is in sin. It is mired in the worst sort of stuff that prevents us from reaching God. To reach whom you call God, getting rid of some of this is necessary, unless you take grace to be some sort of instant conversion experience. For most people, belief systems are required for growth and these must be changed or gotten rid of in order to come to some understanding. Of course you may object to this and say I still haven't gotten the point since I don't take into account the idea that it really is independent of us and that the Word/Logoi is "sealed on our hearts". To that I respond that this is still more of the same movement, the same sort of motions we go through to get glimpses of that. At some point, some cabbage must be given up since we are stuck in that system. You may claim that revelation is possible and that it really is sudden and I respond that if that's true, I'd sure like to know how it can be cause I know of many people who are hurtin and could use that help.

Life is not as simple and clearcut as one would like. The Good Book provides us with a guide and encourages us to learn of what the true source is but we are so much a part of worlds and connections that cabbage is in flux, and effort is required since we ultimately choose what we do.

I don't think you hold a very tenable position, even if defended from your own system of beliefs, let alone when one considers others.


Cheers ! :)



 

Mltsao

Banned
Jan 8, 2001
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sdpfsinfionwenfffffffffffffffffffffffffffnmcincwincdsvcx dspnfip0wenpdsfinmksdpicmw-[efiawfna


stupid religion thread
 

linuxboy

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
2,577
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stupid religion thread

I question that. I question that because it means that if what I think has some impact is stupid, then I would have to finally face up to the idea that my existence is really meaningless and I would have to dig deeper into myself to find out who or what I am and not am. DON'T DO THAT TO ME.

If you claim another activity or thing as stupid, it is not quite as simple as passing a value judgment on an external object. We are a part of the world. Naming something and giving it a characteristic attaches a stigma or an attribute due to connotations in language. It also means everything connected to it gains those attributes. This thread is a part of my world, it is a part of my self and my interactions. You call it stupid and you call me stupid. Therefore, the chain continues and you call the people and things I am connected to stupid. And eventually it reaches you and therefore you would call your own self stupid. The problem with such claims of separation is that we are attached, like it or not, and as the old rhyme goes, "everything you say bounces off me and sticks to you". The fool opens his/her mouth and lets the world know of the foolishness. 'tis better to listen and understand than to assert inviolable and absolutely right ways, since we usually do the latter without much help but the former takes some dying of our old self.

And so I question that. Is this thread really "stupid religion"? Is it even stupid? It is religion?

Cheers ! :)
 

JupiterJones

Senior member
Jun 14, 2001
642
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LinuxBoy,
I am certainly open to learning what I do not currently know and appreciate your comments.

Eh.... "I am the Beloved and the Lover is my veil..." I don't see how it gets much more personal than that, it goes to that deep sexual knowledge that was part of mesopotamian civilization in experiences of the divine. A personal objectification of a figure can get pretty messy when one considers possible motivations as babbled by people like Freud.

First of all, I will retract the use of the word ALL, and supplant it with "of the major world religions that I have studied".

That being said, what I am talking about when I mention the unique relationship between the Christian and the Creator is a bit different. In what other religion can EVERY member have a one-on-one conversation with God? In what other religion is EVERY member a priest? In what other religion is God a friend of EVERY member? In what other religion does God take up personal residence within EVERY member?

One has to, unless the major theologians and my interpretations are wrong. An act of grace requires a movement. Movement requires some shifting of cabbage and to achieve what you claim is an exclusive personal relationship, one needs to get rid of cabbage, lamentably only to have it be replaced by the "right" kinda stuff.

If you had to get rid of "cabbage" and replace it with the "right kinda stuff" you would be earning your salvation thru the good work of personal improvement. The Bible clearly teaches that Salvation is a free gift from God, and not of ANY work on your part. In fact, all that is needed is faith that God personally gives you. Faith that is not, in any way, a part of yourself but rather a gift of God.

Of course you object that grace is an external force, not caused by acts, but a sort of gift that comes freely to those who ask. I respond that asking is still not necessary for gifts

Not to ask, but rather to receive. The asking is a "result" of the gift of faith. Grace isn't so much the gift as the mechanism. Salvation and faith are the gifts.


To reach whom you call God, getting rid of some of this is necessary, unless you take grace to be some sort of instant conversion experience.

Yes, the instant conversion experience is what Jesus referred to as being born again. The getting rid of what exist between you and God will be taken care of BY God later. If you had to improve yourself in any way to achieve Salvation, it wouldn't be Grace and it wouldn't be a gift.

For most people, belief systems are required for growth and these must be changed or gotten rid of in order to come to some understanding.

This ALL comes afterwards. We call this sanctification, but don't get lost in the terms.

You may claim that revelation is possible and that it really is sudden and I respond that if that's true, I'd sure like to know how it can be cause I know of many people who are hurtin and could use that help.

If you earnestly want to find God, you will. He is faithful and just. Talk directly with Him.

I don't think you hold a very tenable position, even if defended from your own system of beliefs, let alone when one considers others.

This is simply classic Christian theology, going back to the reformation. Grace, Justification, Sanctification, and the Priesthood of the Believer.