What I don't understand about the shutdown

[OneOfTheseDays]

So ACA is already signed into law. It has been adjudicated by the Supreme Court as legal. The American public has had a chance to throw it out via the presidential election last year.

Why on earth should Obama accept anything from republicans to tear this law down? The republicans had their chance and failed to overturn it. It's foolish to attempt so now, and even more foolish to tie government shutdown to this.

The democrats don't need to compromise on anything. The American people have spoken and ACA is here to stay. This is all a giant waste of time and I can't see this possibly helping the republicans long term chances of being a viable national party. There are some seriously stupid people running the GOP these days.

 

[michal1980]

I know those house of representative republican members that were elected on an Anti-Obamacare platform, should just turn RINO, or not even bother going to work.

Its not like they were elected or anything.

 

[HomerJS]

I know those house of representative republican members that were elected on an Anti-Obamacare platform, should just turn RINO, or not even bother going to work.

Its not like they were elected or anything.

Boner should bring the CR to the floor for a vote. There are enough regular Republicans for it to pass but the small crazy faction is ruling the roost and Boner wants to keep his job.

The way our system works repeal it if you have the votes to repeal. They don't have the votes so hostage taking has occurred.

 

[Zodiark1593]

So ACA is already signed into law. It has been adjudicated by the Supreme Court as legal. The American public has had a chance to throw it out via the presidential election last year.

Why on earth should Obama accept anything from republicans to tear this law down? The republicans had their chance and failed to overturn it. It's foolish to attempt so now, and even more foolish to tie government shutdown to this.

The democrats don't need to compromise on anything. The American people have spoken and ACA is here to stay. This is all a giant waste of time and I can't see this possibly helping the republicans long term chances of being a viable national party. There are some seriously stupid people running the GOP these days.

Speak for yourself!!!

 

[sportage]

Usually with these things, and difference of opinion. Who is right? Who is wrong?
Usually with these things people on both sides want to see hard proof to support their side winning vs losing. Who was right? Which side has the hard proof?
Well....
This whole thing is about ACA, or FYI, Obamacare.
And the only hard proof I can see is the ACA website crashing because so many millions seek to join up. The massive hits the site is taking with overwhelming the system.
And in states, one for example, CA, so far thousands have succeeded in signing up.
Correct me if it were actually millions in CA.

Republicans, on the other hand, well I should say the biggest mouthed republicans, swore no one would be interested in Obamacare. No one wants it. No one will join. The people reject this concept.
Well....
The proof is in the pudding.
And this pudding tastes pretty successful for ACA popularity among the hungry.
Like I said earlier, this isn't just all granny's needing hip replacements signing up for ACA.
I have become 100% convinced that when the data is analyzed, 80% will be average American citizens under the age of 28 that are signing up for ACA.
The very young folks that the right wing republicans claimed had no interest in affordable healthcare, or desire to buy it.
The very segment that were told would have no interest, will in fact be the major group signing up for ACA ie Obamacare.

 

[shadow9d9]

Speak for yourself!!!

He is talking about a majority of the population that support it and voted in Obama again. This is a fact. He isn't speaking for anyone...

 

[shadow9d9]

I know those house of representative republican members that were elected on an Anti-Obamacare platform, should just turn RINO, or not even bother going to work.

Its not like they were elected or anything.

It doesn't matter what platform they were elected for. They do not have enough power to enact that change, period.

 

[PrinceofWands]

So ACA is already signed into law. It has been adjudicated by the Supreme Court as legal. The American public has had a chance to throw it out via the presidential election last year.

Why on earth should Obama accept anything from republicans to tear this law down? The republicans had their chance and failed to overturn it. It's foolish to attempt so now, and even more foolish to tie government shutdown to this.

The democrats don't need to compromise on anything. The American people have spoken and ACA is here to stay. This is all a giant waste of time and I can't see this possibly helping the republicans long term chances of being a viable national party. There are some seriously stupid people running the GOP these days.

Except that a number of people equal to those that want it in place and enforced want it repealed. You can find any number of polls where this is shown.

The problem is that with a two-party system what happens in elections has nothing to do with what the people believe or want with regards to individual laws. It's why such a system is utterly and totally broken and unworkable.

So if you have roughly 1/3 that want it absolutely, and 1/3 that don't absolutely, the ONLY options are split the nation, or compromise by changing it somehow.

 

[schneiderguy]

The republicans had their chance and failed to overturn it. It's foolish to attempt so now, and even more foolish to tie government shutdown to this.

"The House of Representatives cannot only refuse, but they alone can propose the supplies requisite for the support of the government....This power over the purse may, in fact, be regarded as the most complete and effectual weapon with which any constitution can arm the immediate representatives of the people, for obtaining a redress of every grievance, and for carrying into effect, every just and salutary measure."

-James Madison, Federalist #58

 

[trenchfoot]

Except that a number of people equal to those that want it in place and enforced want it repealed. You can find any number of polls where this is shown.

The problem is that with a two-party system what happens in elections has nothing to do with what the people believe or want with regards to individual laws. It's why such a system is utterly and totally broken and unworkable.

So if you have roughly 1/3 that want it absolutely, and 1/3 that don't absolutely, the ONLY options are split the nation, or compromise by changing it somehow.

You've left out those many folk who don't want the ACA because it didn't go far enough to do what it was intended to do. You've also left out those many folks who usually supported Obama but got freaking mad at him as he wimped out and allowed concession after consession in the Act to get it passed. And I don't particularly mean Obama conceded much to the Repubs, as they didn't want anything to do with the Act. Rather, he had to placate those DINO Blue Dog Dems who were bought, owned and paid for by the big pharma's, the health insurance companies and the HMO's.

By leaving those factors out, your reasoning stands on shakey ground.

 

[OverVolt]

Don't fix what is already broken and break it some more. I think.

Getting insurance without needing an employer is kind of nice, I have to admit. The current "Get healthcare through work!" System isn't the greatest with so many not in the labor force, in school, working several part time jobs, etc.

 

[cubby1223]

So ACA is already signed into law. It has been adjudicated by the Supreme Court as legal. The American public has had a chance to throw it out via the presidential election last year.

Hmmm, I never noticed that on the ballot... I live in Illinois. Did you have different ballot options in your state?

Let me ask you this - if Romney had won 51% of the vote to Obama's 49%, would you have stood by and let Obamacare be dismantled? No? Didn't think so. Your argument is flawed. Do some thinking on this, and maybe it'll clear up a few things you "don't understand about the shutdown."

 

[PrinceofWands]

You've left out those many folk who don't want the ACA because it didn't go far enough to do what it was intended to do. You've also left out those many folks who usually supported Obama but got freaking mad at him as he wimped out and allowed concession after consession in the Act to get it passed. And I don't particularly mean Obama conceded much to the Repubs, as they didn't want anything to do with the Act. Rather, he had to placate those DINO Blue Dog Dems who were bought, owned and paid for by the big pharma's, the health insurance companies and the HMO's.

By leaving those factors out, your reasoning stands on shakey ground.

Not at all. I was pointing out the truth as it existed.

The OP talked about how it was 'accepted by the American people'. This is NOT true. Some want it gone for going too far, and some want it gone for not going far enough (and some want it to go an entirely DIFFERENT way). Either way, as many want it gone as want it changed as want it kept. It's a 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 split more or less.

That gives NO preference to any one group, and is what requires either splitting the nation so that everyone gets what they want, or compromising together so that no one does. Nothing else is a valid answer.

 

[trenchfoot]

Not at all. I was pointing out the truth as it existed.

The OP talked about how it was 'accepted by the American people'. This is NOT true. Some want it gone for going too far, and some want it gone for not going far enough (and some want it to go an entirely DIFFERENT way). Either way, as many want it gone as want it changed as want it kept. It's a 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 split more or less.

That gives NO preference to any one group, and is what requires either splitting the nation so that everyone gets what they want, or compromising together so that no one does. Nothing else is a valid answer.

Thanks for the clarification.:thumbsup:

However, seeing as if as you mentioned the "accepted by American people" quote, I found it true in the sense that Obama was re-elected with the ACA being his "signature legislation" of which was a hotly discussed and debated topic for his entire re-election campaign run to victory. So I can understand your point of view and can agree with it in a narrowly defined way, but I do think the post you quoted was contextually meant to convey what I interpreted it as.

But that's just me.

 

[compuwiz1]

The people who passed the bill didn't get to read it. Had they, it would have been voted out on it's ass. They were told to pass it, "then you can find out what's in it". This is akin to saying, buy this great car Bill, just trust me on this. Sign the paperwork, cut the check, then I'll show it to you later. Everyone got stove piped, but out of party allegiance, there is nobody in the Democratic party that is going to stand up against their Dear Leader.

Now you have men of conscience who are saying this is not right and fair to the American people. We have a president who basically says "my way or the highway". We have Harry Reid also echoing, "no negotiations". When America is getting ready to be hit by the biggest cram down your throats, crony, program ever, what exactly do you expect men of good conscience to do? Shut these fuckers down, call them on their bullshit. Approve CR for essential services, don't let people starve, but stand your ground. The liberals are ass raping this country every day. Conservative leadership is going to be the only way we stop the money printing presses and stop borrowing beyond our means. Sick of the little fucking brats that think the government owes them something and should just continue to borrow and spend like an out of control rich parent's college student. They are simply putting on the brakes.

We have created a society of government dependent morons. We have created a main stream media that ensures that most of America remains dead to reality. It is no wonder at all that the left wing media hosts such shows as the kardashians, Honey Boo Boo and all the Real Housewives. God forbid, if people would stop fantasizing about living in mansions, wearing huge diamond rings & driving Bentley's, they might actually see what destruction is going on around them, caused by our elected officials.

Ok...that's your 3am rant for now. Have a nice day folks!

 

[Agent11]

Boner should bring the CR to the floor for a vote. There are enough regular Republicans for it to pass but the small crazy faction is ruling the roost and Boner wants to keep his job.

The way our system works repeal it if you have the votes to repeal. They don't have the votes so hostage taking has occurred.

At least we live in a society where literal hostage taking is not occuring for political gain.

 

[Double Trouble]

He is talking about a majority of the population that support it and voted in Obama again. This is a fact. He isn't speaking for anyone...

That's technically incorrect. The majority of the people who voted voted for him instead of Romney or third party. That doesn't mean they specifically voted for obamacare, it just means a majority of those who voted (which is not even close to the majority of the American people) preferred Obama over the other options.

 

[Double Trouble]

It doesn't matter what platform they were elected for. They do not have enough power to enact that change, period.

I guess that remains to be seen. Far more ugly than the government shutdown discussion going on right now is the debt ceiling fight coming up. That could have really nasty impact on the economy, and we'll have to see how that works out.

Just because one party is in the minority doesn't mean they simply roll over and let the other party do anything it wants. There are procedural checks and balances that give the minority party some ability to influence the process even when they don't have the majority votes.

 

[Double Trouble]

Don't fix what is already broken and break it some more. I think.

Getting insurance without needing an employer is kind of nice, I have to admit. The current "Get healthcare through work!" System isn't the greatest with so many not in the labor force, in school, working several part time jobs, etc.

There are several aspects to obamacare that I really like, and I think the vast majority of the American people really want. Not getting rejected for pre-existing conditions, not having your health care tied to a single employer, among others. This could have been a big step forward, but it turned out to be a big step backward instead.

 

[Matt1970]

So ACA is already signed into law. It has been adjudicated by the Supreme Court as legal. The American public has had a chance to throw it out via the presidential election last year.

Why on earth should Obama accept anything from republicans to tear this law down? The republicans had their chance and failed to overturn it. It's foolish to attempt so now, and even more foolish to tie government shutdown to this.

The democrats don't need to compromise on anything. The American people have spoken and ACA is here to stay. This is all a giant waste of time and I can't see this possibly helping the republicans long term chances of being a viable national party. There are some seriously stupid people running the GOP these days.

What polls have you been looking at?

 

[CPA]

See this is where the public's vote shows its contradictory nature. On one hand, the public votes back in the President that brought the ACA, signalling they are happy with it. Then they turn around and vote in a Republican majority, with a heavy dose of Tea Party Conservatives, into the House, which has the traditional authority to set appropriations (budget), signalling their disapproval of ACA.

Now, some of you have said "the American people have spoken and approve it by re-electing Obama", while others could point to the House and say "No, the people have spoken and don't approve it by electing a majority of Conservatives in the House."

 

[PrinceofWands]

Thanks for the clarification.:thumbsup:

However, seeing as if as you mentioned the "accepted by American people" quote, I found it true in the sense that Obama was re-elected with the ACA being his "signature legislation" of which was a hotly discussed and debated topic for his entire re-election campaign run to victory. So I can understand your point of view and can agree with it in a narrowly defined way, but I do think the post you quoted was contextually meant to convey what I interpreted it as.

But that's just me.

Well it was true in the election ONLY because our electoral system is fucked, and totally unrepresentative. Which is why I focused it on the actual feelings of the public in general, and not on election results.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

Thanks for the clarification.:thumbsup:

However, seeing as if as you mentioned the "accepted by American people" quote, I found it true in the sense that Obama was re-elected with the ACA being his "signature legislation" of which was a hotly discussed and debated topic for his entire re-election campaign run to victory. So I can understand your point of view and can agree with it in a narrowly defined way, but I do think the post you quoted was contextually meant to convey what I interpreted it as.

But that's just me.

I think you have to look at support for a particular piece of legislation. Obama being reelected in itself doesn't say anything because he was the only alternative to Romney. Instead you can find that at the time the SCOTUS was weighing in on the tax being imposed by the mandate the majority were against it. There's more to any election than a law.

 

[Jhhnn]

See this is where the public's vote shows its contradictory nature. On one hand, the public votes back in the President that brought the ACA, signalling they are happy with it. Then they turn around and vote in a Republican majority, with a heavy dose of Tea Party Conservatives, into the House, which has the traditional authority to set appropriations (budget), signalling their disapproval of ACA.

Now, some of you have said "the American people have spoken and approve it by re-electing Obama", while others could point to the House and say "No, the people have spoken and don't approve it by electing a majority of Conservatives in the House."

You ignore a very important factor- Gerrymandering.

In the backlash election of 2010, Repubs took over many state houses, reapportioned to suit their own partisan purposes. More people voted for Dems in 2012 than for Repubs-

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/03/o...-gerrymander-of-2012.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

At that, Boehner is facilitating the Teahadists by enforcing the Hastert Rule, where a majority of the majority must approve of any measure being brought to a vote. Essentially, it's minority rule facilitating extortion.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

You ignore a very important factor- Gerrymandering.

In the backlash election of 2010, Repubs took over many state houses, reapportioned to suit their own partisan purposes. More people voted for Dems in 2012 than for Repubs-

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/03/o...-gerrymander-of-2012.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

At that, Boehner is facilitating the Teahadists by enforcing the Hastert Rule, where a majority of the majority must approve of any measure being brought to a vote. Essentially, it's minority rule facilitating extortion.

That could be explained based on voter turnout rather than gerrymandering. Maybe normal Republican voters decided they didn't like Romney so they chose not to vote.

http://elections.gmu.edu/Turnout_2012G.html