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What Has Happened To GPU Pricing?

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Mar 10, 2006
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I previously avoided these forums because of the general tone, but came back to try to find some useful information about the performance of the new generation of cards. I am no fan of either camp, and in fact have an AMD card, but there really should be no place for all the venom and abusive language directed mainly toward nVidia and (especially) toward the people who purchase their products.
You've got that right!
 

monkeydelmagico

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2011
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What I objected to was calling nVidia's MSRP "fake". By definition, the MSRP is the MSRP. A product can sell above or below it, but MSRP still "is what it is."

I previously avoided these forums because of the general tone, but came back to try to find some useful information about the performance of the new generation of cards. I am no fan of either camp, and in fact have an AMD card, but there really should be no place for all the venom and abusive language directed mainly toward nVidia and (especially) toward the people who purchase their products.

If my post came across as hostile I apologize. Certainly was not my intent. Agree with your sentiment regarding msrp being suggested price. It's right there in the acronym! Not sure how/why people could find that confusing.

I will admit I was/am a bit disappointed that no $379.- 1070's appeared. I think that would have been a very sweet price to performance ratio.
 

RadiclDreamer

Diamond Member
Aug 8, 2004
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The price of something is set at a price they think they market will bear to make them the most profit they can make. I hate it, but they have a duty to make their shareholders money. If people keep spending these insane prices on the cards, they will keep charging that. If the cards sit and collect dust at those prices they will come down, simple as that.
 

Bacon1

Diamond Member
Feb 14, 2016
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The problem with MSRP is that reviewers were using MSRP and not the actual released pricing of the cards for price/perf comparisons. Now street prices and MSRP are different, but when we still have no manufacturers releasing their cards for the same MSRP that Nvidia said they would be, we have problems.

Nvidia said that the MSRP was going to be 379 and 599, but we have not seen a single manufacturer price their cards @ MSRP of 379 or 599, they have all been over.

So when we constantly see headlines of "1070 releasing @ $379" or "1060 releasing @ 259" they are deceitful and inaccurate.
 
Jun 18, 2000
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What happened is process tech improvements drastically slowed down. Toss in consumer desperation for faster cards and you have a recipe for prices going through the roof. The market was stuck on 28nm for, what, 4 years? Look at average die size since then. The high end got more expensive while entry and mid-range stagnated.

For a fun comparison, the GeForce 2 Ultra launched in 2000 at $499 with a die size of 90 mm2(!). The RX 480 is nearly triple that size.

https://www.techpowerup.com/gpudb/736/geforce2-ultra
 

littleg

Senior member
Jul 9, 2015
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If my post came across as hostile I apologize. Certainly was not my intent. Agree with your sentiment regarding msrp being suggested price. It's right there in the acronym! Not sure how/why people could find that confusing.

I will admit I was/am a bit disappointed that no $379.- 1070's appeared. I think that would have been a very sweet price to performance ratio.
It is there in the acronym. Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price. Which makes it all the more surprising when the manufacturer is shouting 'Hey, guys, it's $379!' while writing out a sign that says $450.
 

Chiropteran

Diamond Member
Nov 14, 2003
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Except I can't buy a $220 480 today.
You can't buy ANY 480s today, except at jacked up re-seller prices on ebay or amazon.

It's not some crazy conspiracy to refuse to actually sell the $199 4GB model, ALL models of the Radeon 480 are sold out.
 

Erithan13

Senior member
Oct 25, 2015
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I don't know of anything like the Founder's Edition pricing happening before with GPUs (please correct me if I'm wrong). I think from NVs point of view they took a pretty big gamble with it since if the response was universally negative even amongst the dedicated NV fans that would tarnish their reputation and drive people away. But, as far as I have been able to see, enough people are buying the 1080 and 1070 at FE prices that I can only imagine NV are roundly patting themselves on the back for a job well done. Yes, I've seen discontent about it, but again, if people were overwhelmingly, truly disgusted by FE pricing there would be mass boycotts and the cards wouldn't sell or at least wouldn't sell as well as they appear to be doing.

So, it seems to be confirmed now that FE pricing is perfectly fine. Grab the headlines and the fanboys with '$379 1070!!!!' even though it's practically impossible for anyone to get the card at that price. It's a $379 card, the reviews will praise it as a $379 card and evaluate its performance at that price point even though it's plainly clear the cards are not to be found at that price. I speak for myself only here but that seems very dishonest and paints NV as a company that I don't really want to be doing business with if I can avoid it. And given what AMD are offering, not to mention the G-Sync tax for when I'm shopping for a new monitor, frankly NV are going to have to do an awful lot better if they want a penny out of me in the future. And speaking of the future, the 1060 launch confirms that FE pricing was not just a one off and I can only assume we'll be seeing much more of it. So that means everytime new NV cards are talked about, announced, released etc the big question hanging over it all is what prices the cards are really going to be selling at. I'm already seeing it with the 1060, it seems the skepticism about the '$249' price point is taking root quite firmly and NV may need to tread carefully here. What may be acceptable to buyers of the 1080 and 1070 may not go over as well within the 1060s price segment.

No, this does not mean I'm going to crap on the 1080/70/60 at every opportunity and rail on endlessly about NVs pricing practices. If I think someone is honestly better off with a NV card for their particular situation then I'll recommend that because I want to strive to be objective. That goes the other way as well though, the 960 vs 380 was frankly a shameful display from certain sections of the community since the technical merits of the two cards got completely derailed by the incessant promotion of the 'NV or bust' mentality. Believe me I've seen equally shameful practices from AMD promoters as well and I'll be calling those out when I see them too.

I guess my worry is that if FE pricing becomes accepted that sends a message to companies in general that you have your cake with flashy headlines with the 'MSRP' price and then eat it too with the actual pricing at launch. The 480 isn't available as low as it really needs to be either but at least then we're all clear it's case of high demand relative to supply and/or retailer price gouging (so basically what happened with the 6700K at launch).
 

littleg

Senior member
Jul 9, 2015
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It's a farce. How can the MSRP be $249 when even the manufacturer isn't selling it at that price?

The MSRP of the 1060 is $299, simple as that. That's what the manufacturer is selling them for.
 

poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
14,610
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What I objected to was calling nVidia's MSRP "fake". By definition, the MSRP is the MSRP. A product can sell above or below it, but MSRP still "is what it is."

I previously avoided these forums because of the general tone, but came back to try to find some useful information about the performance of the new generation of cards. I am no fan of either camp, and in fact have an AMD card, but there really should be no place for all the venom and abusive language directed mainly toward nVidia and (especially) toward the people who purchase their products.
I did not intend to malign anyone when I made this thread, as I wasn't trying to get across some point that consumers were making bad purchase decisions. Quite the opposite infact, I think consumers are making the best decisions they can in a purposefully confusing market.

Seeing as how a GPU gets dated (and therefore depreciates) faster than any other expensive part in a gaming machine it makes sense that some people would want to pay extra to get a card early in it's life cycle because the real value formula is the months you own it divided by cost. If I was in the market for a higher-end GPU I would also pay a premium (above MSRP) for a new generation Nvidia card because we have plenty of evidence they will age better than outgoing clearance cards of the same performance of the last generation. I would much rather have a $450 1070 than a $400 980 ti for example, so I understand the value of paying the premium.

My question more has to do with the fact that in the past GPU value was a stairstep scale, and when new GPUs came out the value proposition instantly shifted that day and stayed relative to that new position (outside of Black Friday deals) until the next generation of cards came. Now it feels like the price increase is a straight slope where the price falls DURING the card's time and there are no longer any great leaps in value.

I keep thinking about how the $330 GTX 970 dethroned a $700 card overnight. That wasn't that long ago years-wise, but it feels like a completely different era for GPUs.
 

poofyhairguy

Lifer
Nov 20, 2005
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You can't buy ANY 480s today, except at jacked up re-seller prices on ebay or amazon.
True, but you can preorder one at B&H right now and they go in and out of stock all over the net constantly. It isn't like a $379 MSRP 1070 that hasn't ever existed anywhere.

It's not some crazy conspiracy to refuse to actually sell the $199 4GB model, ALL models of the Radeon 480 are sold out.
My point isn't that there is some crazy conspiracy to keep 4GB models away from consumers, my point is that there ARE no real 4GB models. There will be real 4GB models made by AIBs eventually, but those weren't ready for launch and they might never sell for a straight $199. But AMD wanted to say they were offering something "VR Ready" at $199 price point for the marketing hype and so they converted enough 8GB models into 4GB models so that no one can call them a liar but almost no one can actually buy one.

I mean think about it- every 4GB model AMD has sold already they eventually could have sold as a 8GB model. They are therefore "losing" money (in opportunity cost) on each 4GB model sold. But on the other hand normally what we see is the card that is the highest value is the card most wanted, so in reality most potential 480 customers probably want to buy the (promised by reviews) $200 model that doesn't really exist. What AMD wanted, and they succeeded in doing, is to get people interested because of the "advertised" $200 price and then sell them the $240 8GB model to get that extra $40 the 4GB customers never pay (despite getting the same product). To me that is the same thing as a Founder Edition vs MSRP bait and switch.

If AMD really meant to disrupt the market with a $200 VR offerings they would have made real 4GB models, and they would have made more of those than the 8GB models to meet the additional demand for the cheaper version of the card. Instead we got a situation where there were WAY fewer fake "4GB" models than 8GB models for sale, and the only companies that could even sell the few converted 4GB models out there are AIB "partners" who only ship AMD cards (aka AMD giving a bonus to close friends). From the start the $199 4GB reference model was a marketing lie, it was never meant to be a highly available product like EVERY 480 review assumes.

Therefore to me the $199 480 price is almost exactly the same as the $379 1070 price, with the slight exception that really active enthusiasts like myself were able to actually buy a $199 480 or two on launch day. But the "normal user" just walking into Microcenter wanting to build a new gaming rig because he got his paycheck and he read a few reviews online gets to chose between either a $199 GTX 960 or 380x, an 8GB $240 480, or a $270 970. The huge value shift of the $199 480 isn't available and might never be, but the fact that it could exist turns the $199 380x and 960 (that people can buy) into pumpkins because someone somewhere DID get a $199 480 so it's hard to stomach paying $199 for the 960 when every review assumes you should easily be able to buy the $199 480 instead.

It seems like both GPU makers have gone into "car sales mode" this generation and I am just trying to figure out why.
 

Mr Evil

Senior member
Jul 24, 2015
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mrevil.asvachin.com
You can't buy ANY 480s today, except at jacked up re-seller prices on ebay or amazon.

It's not some crazy conspiracy to refuse to actually sell the $199 4GB model, ALL models of the Radeon 480 are sold out.
Maybe it's different in other countries, but I see plenty of 480s in stock, and at about the price I would expect given the usual $1=£1 "exchange rate".
 

rgallant

Golden Member
Apr 14, 2007
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The problem with MSRP is that reviewers were using MSRP and not the actual released pricing of the cards for price/perf comparisons. Now street prices and MSRP are different, but when we still have no manufacturers releasing their cards for the same MSRP that Nvidia said they would be, we have problems.

Nvidia said that the MSRP was going to be 379 and 599, but we have not seen a single manufacturer price their cards @ MSRP of 379 or 599, they have all been over.

So when we constantly see headlines of "1070 releasing @ $379" or "1060 releasing @ 259" they are deceitful and inaccurate.
I agree
the reviewers will use a $299.00 MSRP 1060 FE card vs a RX 480 card @ $239
but use the 1060 $249 in the $$/FPS charts
$239 vs $299 =$60 25% more than the RX 480.
all I can say is if that happens call out the reviewer for the bs review , like what else did they lie about.
 

tential

Diamond Member
May 13, 2008
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Nvidia marketing is next level like I always say.

Going to buy some Nvidia stock actually before I buy any cards.
 

Cheepnis

Member
Oct 1, 2012
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I feel like I missed something. Wasn't the 8GB 480 supposed to start at $230, not $240?
wasupwithat
 

sirmo

Golden Member
Oct 10, 2011
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I feel like I missed something. Wasn't the 8GB 480 supposed to start at $230, not $240?
wasupwithat
$230 was always a rumor which I never believed. $39 extra for 4Gb of additional VRAM is still pretty good if you consider Nvidia charge that much for 2Gb on the 960 and it's even slower VRAM.
 
Feb 19, 2009
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A couple of years ago, I paid something like GBP 220 for an Nvidia 8800 GTS 640mb. That has a 484mm² die - much bigger than GP104. It was the same die used for the highest end card at the time, the 8800 Ultra.

Today, the cheapest 1080 I can find costs GBP 600, and it isn't even using the biggest Nvidia die of this generation. It's actually the mid range die.
But somebody told me here (obviously I cannot name them due to: rules) that you can't compare CPU or GPU prices and equate value based on die sizes, it's a meaningless metric.

It's not as if die sizes equate to production costs and yields at all.

These companies are making record profit margins. But it's okay, they are not ripping us gamers off, not at all.

Everything is fine, move along.

ps. /s
 
Feb 19, 2009
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Nvidia marketing is next level like I always say.

Going to buy some Nvidia stock actually before I buy any cards.
If you actually want to make a profit with stock, you should have bought AMD mate. $2 a few months ago.

When Zen arrive, if it's not a total flop, their shares should skyrocket. I mean, even if its a mild flop, it would still be a heck of a lot better than Crapdozer they've been trying to sell for the past 5 years.
 

jpiniero

Diamond Member
Oct 1, 2010
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It seems like both GPU makers have gone into "car sales mode" this generation and I am just trying to figure out why.
Because this is an expensive node... that's why. AMD's gross margin of the 480 at $199 is probably little to none (esp since the yield at GloFo is presumably crap compared to TSMC), hence why they are pushing the 8 GB model which they might actually make a little bit off of.
 

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