shira
Diamond Member
- Jan 12, 2005
- 9,500
- 6
- 81
There are, of course, two major flaws in the "reasoning" underlying Pascal's wager:
1. Let's say you "believe" and arrange your life to conform with those beliefs. As a result (let us say), you deny yourself various wordly pleasures, maybe fvck up the lives of your children in an atempt to indoctrinate them, perhaps wage a holy war in the name of what you believe. All kinds of BAD things. If you doubt that such bad things can occur in the pursuit of faith, then I suggest you consider today's radical Islamists. And just in case you think "Christian" faith is not at all like that, note that any number of horrors have been perpetrated on "infidels" and "blasphemers" down through history in the name of Christian faith.
The alternative, not believing, may lead to a much more peaceful life that doesn't infringe on or harm anyone else. And you may lead a more productive life, using your time to produce works of true worth (not wasting much of your time in the contemplation of a fantasy).
2. If the criterion is that you err on the side of the belief system that offers all the goodies, then why not believe in a faith that promises far more? For example, how about a belief system that says that to the extent that you live your Earthly existence as though you were a God (for example, treating others as though they were your inferiors, demanding service, lying, cheating, stealing), to that extent you will BE a God in the afterlife, with your choice of an infinity of virgins and other pleasures?
The argument for this more extreme belief system is that same Pascal's wager: If you believe and are correct, you get ALL the goodies; if you are wrong, you get less (and "less" is the more accurate term than "nothing", since as I've pointed out, living an optimally productive and peaceful life in a universe in which God does not exist is hardly of no value - it may, in fact, be the absolute most that is available).
P&N is left leaning? OMG, shocker of the century.
This is the perfect example of not thinking outside of your narrow little viewpoint. People only think what their side thinks, never outside of that. There are many Christian conservatives and there are many Athiest conservatives. There are many Christian leftists and many Atheist leftists.
So if your a Conservative and your fellow Conservatives think you go to hell or heaven after death, do you automatically support that position as well? Sadly, most people do. They are sheep.
The problem with P&N is that most people here simply follow the party line and don't think outside of that.
Never said it was... that's why I said, "as usual." :roll:
Please quantify many and provide evidence.
Umm... okay... maybe you can stop posting then?
Your assuming there aren't based on your narrow viewpoint.
Umm .... okay ... maybe you can stop posting since your a follower of the party line and don't think outside of the box?
What do you want me to do? Google it up and give you some results?
There were and still are many Conservative atheists who believe in low taxes, limited government, stronger defense and other "usual" conservative issues. You don't have to be a Christian to be a conservative. It's a myth generated by the media and other sheeple.
Abraham Lincoln was a atheist conservative. So was Albert Einstein. Galileo was considered a conservative by many.
There were and still are many Conservative atheists who believe in low taxes, limited government, stronger defense and other "usual" conservative issues. You don't have to be a Christian to be a conservative. It's a myth generated by the media and other sheeple.
Abraham Lincoln was a atheist conservative. So was Albert Einstein. Galileo was considered a conservative by many.
That's great. Never disputed that. I'm asking you to show me there are many Christian liberals. Now if you define many as ten, then sure there are "many" hence I asked you to quantify.
I cut all that out. I never said Pascal's wager was perfect, because it assumes 1) a Christian God 2) That this God actually rewards belief
There are many other criticisms, but there are two more.
Jesus spoke of hell and ethernal punishment often - about 15 times in the Gospel of Matthew alone.
Is Hell for Real?
We die, our bodies are consumed by the Earth from whence we came, and our spirits return to their homes. Should I be scared of the concept of Hell, Riprorin? I was, once, until I realized that the fear of Hell was all that was keeping me a Christian. I decided at that moment that the God I believed in would most likely be merciful and logical than vindictive and petty, and if He wanted me in Heaven he would give me understanding and wisdom. In giving up Christianity I gained so much more. It's a pity you can't see that, the freedom that comes from casting away all those chains and fears.
In general you'll find 'liberal' or 'left-leaning' Christians in certain churches such as Episcopalian, some branches of Lutheran, Methodist, Anglican, probably several more I'm not familiar with. They are usually controversial for reasons such as having women in clergy, gay clergy, etc. These churches also do not really promote a fire and brimstone sort of hell/afterlife, more like hell = being separated from God/Christ. HTH.
Jesus spoke of hell more than he spoke of heaven.
Hell is being separated from God. The Bible also talks about hell being an "eternal fire".
1. Do you beleive in God? How did the world become out of nothing? And my idea of nothing is no space, no colours, just nothing. Space is something.
2. If yes, then Did God just make us for the hell of it? Why no create us in an eternal life from first? Why create us here if he is so clever and knows everything including who goes to heaven and who doesnt? Why bring us here in the first place? It would mean God doesn't know which would mean God isnt God.
2. If yes, then Did God just make us for the hell of it? Why no create us in an eternal life from first? Why create us here if he is so clever and knows everything including who goes to heaven and who doesnt? Why bring us here in the first place? It would mean God doesn't know which would mean God isnt God.
I think the doctrine of Hell is one of the most misunderstood of Christianity. The Catholic Church, of which I am a member, teaches the Hell is nothing more than eternal seperation from God. Some of the popular fallacies are...
1) Hell is the universe's worst torture dungeon.
The only pain and torture inflicted on a soul in Hell is the consequence of being distant from an all loving God. The images of fire and what not in the Bible are symbols for this pain.
2) Hell is run by the Devil and demons.
While the devil would love to see everyone turn away from God, people don't go to his "kingdom" when they die. They have chosen to turn away from God but that doesn't mean Satan gets total power over them.
3) With eternal torture, everybody would repent, so they don't deserve to be there any more.
The problem here is thinking that you can repent when you're dead. Our life on Earth is the time for choosing whether we will accept God or not. Once you die, you're stuck with that choice. The souls in Hell may be in pain, but they still hate God just as much as they did when they entered Hell.
4) If God were all merciful, he wouldn't send anyone away from him.
While God would love for everyone to join Him in heaven, what's he supposed to do when people tell Him they refuse and declare themselves their own god?
5) People get sent to Hell for their actions, especially small things like not going to Church.
People get sent to Hell for rejecting God, and treating themselves like a deity: not for the actions. It is true that it's impossible to do bad things and still accept God, but the point is it isn't the actions that seperate people from God, it's their own pride.
I hope this clears up some of the misconceptions out there, post back if you're still confused or want to argue.
1) Hell is the universe's worst torture dungeon.
The only pain and torture inflicted on a soul in Hell is the consequence of being distant from an all loving God. The images of fire and what not in the Bible are symbols for this pain.
2) Hell is run by the Devil and demons.
While the devil would love to see everyone turn away from God, people don't go to his "kingdom" when they die. They have chosen to turn away from God but that doesn't mean Satan gets total power over them.
3) With eternal torture, everybody would repent, so they don't deserve to be there any more.
The problem here is thinking that you can repent when you're dead. Our life on Earth is the time for choosing whether we will accept God or not. Once you die, you're stuck with that choice. The souls in Hell may be in pain, but they still hate God just as much as they did when they entered Hell.
4) If God were all merciful, he wouldn't send anyone away from him.
While God would love for everyone to join Him in heaven, what's he supposed to do when people tell Him they refuse and declare themselves their own god?
5) People get sent to Hell for their actions, especially small things like not going to Church.
People get sent to Hell for rejecting God, and treating themselves like a deity: not for the actions. It is true that it's impossible to do bad things and still accept God, but the point is it isn't the actions that seperate people from God, it's their own pride.
I hope this clears up some of the misconceptions out there, post back if you're still confused or want to argue.
Nobody mentioned a time frame of when this is supposed to happen? Immediately upon death you cease functioning and your body rots.
Christian-wise it happens the same.
The difference for the Christians is that when the Messiah returns, he is to judge the living and the dead. This implies that when you die, you are dead until the Messiah returns. At that point, you are spiritually reconstituted here on Earth, though not necessarily of the same body the scriptures imply. You will then be given satisfying work to do, and share in the glory of the creator, whilst being governed over by the chosen ones (three hundred thousand or so).
A little oversimplified, and confusing to most.
Christian-wise it happens the same.
The difference for the Christians is that when the Messiah returns, he is to judge the living and the dead. This implies that when you die, you are dead until the Messiah returns. At that point, you are spiritually reconstituted here on Earth, though not necessarily of the same body the scriptures imply. You will then be given satisfying work to do, and share in the glory of the creator, whilst being governed over by the chosen ones (three hundred thousand or so).
A little oversimplified, and confusing to most.
The post wasn't meant for people like you :roll:
It was meant for anyone who wants to discredit hell, christianity, or God on one of the above reasons
TRENDING THREADS
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 25K
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 22K
-
News NVIDIA and Intel to Develop AI Infrastructure and Personal Computing Products- Started by poke01
- Replies: 384
-
Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread- Started by TheF34RChannel
- Replies: 23K
Facebook
Twitter