What happens when there is a Time paradox?

[SMOGZINN]

Originally posted by: KIAman
In a multiverse, going back would simply create a different version of the universe. You could even kill yourself from the past and get away with it.

The problem with all time travel theory's that allow for paradox is that it would mean that our fundamental understanding of cause/effect is incorrect. Any such theory requires that there be an effect before a cause, an effect with out a cause, or a cause with out an effect. Any of these events would require us to go back and rework our entire understanding of all science, starting with simple number theory.

 

[bsobel]

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN

Originally posted by: KIAman
In a multiverse, going back would simply create a different version of the universe. You could even kill yourself from the past and get away with it.

The problem with all time travel theory's that allow for paradox is that it would mean that our fundamental understanding of cause/effect is incorrect. Any such theory requires that there be an effect before a cause, an effect with out a cause, or a cause with out an effect. Any of these events would require us to go back and rework our entire understanding of all science, starting with simple number theory.

This is incorrect given the multiverse discussion above.

 

[KIAman]

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN

Originally posted by: KIAman
In a multiverse, going back would simply create a different version of the universe. You could even kill yourself from the past and get away with it.

The problem with all time travel theory's that allow for paradox is that it would mean that our fundamental understanding of cause/effect is incorrect. Any such theory requires that there be an effect before a cause, an effect with out a cause, or a cause with out an effect. Any of these events would require us to go back and rework our entire understanding of all science, starting with simple number theory.

Absolutely true and I mis-worded my statement to lead to that conclusion. I always ponder over the definition of infinite and still fall short in trying to understand it. But anyways, what I meant is that every iteration of everything ever possible that could ever happen has its own version of the universe. Infinite universes with infinite possibilities. Universes aren't "created" because of our actions, they are already there.

A person traveling back in time to kill himself in the past to get away with it does so in a universe that has been there, prepared for this event. This implies there really is no thing as choice as everything that could possibly be done has already been accounted for. It feels insane to think about the sheer amount of energy just to have all these "infinite" universes in existence then one considers the definition of "infinite." Is it really possible? In the end, I'm not really sure and aren't convinced either way. This has all been a big imagination experiment on my part.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Originally posted by: bsobel

Originally posted by: SMOGZINN

Originally posted by: KIAman
In a multiverse, going back would simply create a different version of the universe. You could even kill yourself from the past and get away with it.

The problem with all time travel theory's that allow for paradox is that it would mean that our fundamental understanding of cause/effect is incorrect. Any such theory requires that there be an effect before a cause, an effect with out a cause, or a cause with out an effect. Any of these events would require us to go back and rework our entire understanding of all science, starting with simple number theory.

This is incorrect given the multiverse discussion above.

I think it would be true even in a multi-universe setup. One of the key components to cause/effect is that they always agree no matter the vantage point. In the multi-universe setup they only agree for once special vantage point, in all other vantage points one of the disallowed events occurs.

Originally posted by: KIAman
But anyways, what I meant is that every iteration of everything ever possible that could ever happen has its own version of the universe.

This is the static universe(s) version. It gets around the problem of cause/effect by removing the need for there to be cause and effect at all. This concept states that the universe is static and never changes, we only perceive change because we are mentally moving though a set of static points of time. No matter how we move though those static points of time, the points don?t change, only our perception of them does.

 

[QuantumPion]

I would highly suggest everyone watch this lecture on the physics of impossible things:

http://streamer.perimeterinsti...0099859ccaa/index.html

 

[Aberforth]

Time and Space is just a state of mind, there is actually no such thing. These are the things that we have invented to understand the complexities of the universe, whenever we come across things that are beyond the field of scientific reasoning, we add some sort of non-existent limitation to it and suppress our own thinking capacity. For example, if it takes 10 months to go to mars by a spacecraft- space might be the biggest limiting factor. But in my mind it take less than a second to go to mars so the "Space" limitation is reduced, so we really cannot define these things or give a definite meaning to this.

 

[sandorski]

No one Knows.

 

[AstroGuardian]

time is something humans invented. But there is no such thing. Lets say that a atom or some matter exists and it is affected by no energy at all. What happens then? Nothing! Nothing happens and therefore time is not relevant and non existent. When nothing happens, time does not exist. There is a problem with human thinking...... it's subjective. Humans could not possibly think objectively?
Time is just comparative of two consecutive states of the matter if any kind of energy is applied with different parameters and nothing more.

Who agrees?

 

[Aberforth]

Originally posted by: AstroGuardian
time is something humans invented. But there is no such thing. Lets say that a atom or some matter exists and it is affected by no energy at all

Who agrees?

It does affect because "matter" as we call it always has a shelf life. Everything in the physical universe is constantly changing due to some force, even our bodies are constantly changing. It is only that we do not notice these changes in a specific time frame or space. But still you are right, like I said above there is no such thing as time and space. Every force is a reaction of some other force and this reaction can also be reversed, science so far has failed to trace the source of this force. Suppose, an apple falls from a tree it cannot be a random act of nature because some force must have acted upon it, whenever we are unable explain something we call it 'random', the apple fell down because of the wind & gravity, the wind is caused by sun which warms the cold air to rise, so you have to trace the source in that way and reverse it in order reach the previous state of the universe.

Time and Space cannot be comparative or even applied for physical science because there is no accuracy in it, some people are even struggling to interpret it, suppose I have two thoughts, thought A and thought B, the distance between A & B can also be called as space, the energy to reach from A to B can also be called as time, this is legit because mind is also a part of this universe.

The universe is constantly changing due to some energy, there is no question of applying any additional energy, all the energy required is already present but you must burn energy to use the energy which again goes into energy.

 

[KIAman]

Originally posted by: Aberforth

Originally posted by: AstroGuardian
time is something humans invented. But there is no such thing. Lets say that a atom or some matter exists and it is affected by no energy at all

Who agrees?

It does affect because "matter" as we call it always has a shelf life. Everything in the physical universe is constantly changing due to some force....

It's called the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

 

[Aberforth]

Originally posted by: KIAman

Originally posted by: Aberforth

Originally posted by: AstroGuardian
time is something humans invented. But there is no such thing. Lets say that a atom or some matter exists and it is affected by no energy at all

Who agrees?

It does affect because "matter" as we call it always has a shelf life. Everything in the physical universe is constantly changing due to some force....

It's called the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

Thanks for putting that one, I do recall studying this stuff when I was in the college but all these theories have become instinct in my mind and I like it that way.

 

[KIAman]

I know this is going on a slight tangent here but I've always wondered about the underlying reasons of our current set of physics. Why does E=MC^2 or why do the laws of thermodynamics apply, or why C, etc. What's driving these rules? Is it the properties of quantum particles? Properties of space itself? Someone mentioned parallel universe with its own set of rules. What could possibly be different from our universe that establishes different rules?

Any thoughts?

 

[Aberforth]

Originally posted by: KIAman
What could possibly be different from our universe that establishes different rules?

Any thoughts?

Am no scientist. But I believe there are no rules, all these scientific rules are superstitious, created in mind- it's one man's way of looking into the universe so he creates a set of experiments and clings to previous laws and theories just to prove his theory. You have to think up the possibilities beyond the limitations of science, it has a force field, there is a limitation in science in which it cannot answer some questions because these are beyond the field of reasoning- so you have to expand your area of possibilities, so look into other subjects. Last week I was in the library reading ancient take on the universe, they say sense organs always lie- I think they are right, when you look at something it is not your eyes that are seeing, it's the mind- so How do you know mind is telling the truth? Maybe there are parallel universes which you do not see, so all scientific theories, inventions etc derived out of sense observations are very limited. So we go into non-welcoming subjects, i don't think it's appropriate to mention it here.

 

[AstroGuardian]

Teaching humans to understand the fundamentals of physics is like teaching a dog to multiply or divide. I mean, humans don't have the amount of braincells it takes to prove some theories.

I say we just wait a couple of millenniums more, do our research and we will se what happens next.... Who knows, maybe we will understand and get out of our subjective barriers.

 

[PCBeal23]

Well, since no one has actually touched this area, I will.

Heisenberg's Uncertainty principle states that the position and state of an atom and it's constituents cannot be measured at any given time. That said, you can go back in time and alter events, as (future) you are not the same person as (past) you.

Physics does indeed allow for time travel, but the power requirements needed to do so are well beyond our capabilities. Forward time-travel is quite "simple," in that one would only need to travel near the speed of light in order to slow local time down relative to time here on Earth. If someone were to fly at 3/4 the speed of light to the nearest star (Alpha Centauri, approx. 4 light years away) It would only seem as if a few days, maybe even weeks had passed, while over 5 years would have passed on Earth. To complete the round trip, the astronaut would have traveled just over 10 years into the future.

To travel into the past, however, physicists agree that it is indeed possible, and for that, you can see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T...to_the_past_in_physics which actually sums things up quite nicely.

If you really want to know more, I suggest reading a book called Physics of the Impossible by Michio Kaku. He has an entire chapter on time travel (of which I am currently reading) that explains much of this in even more detail.

 

[Mrpilot007]

Originally posted by: Cogman
So, I'm watching superman, he does the famous "spins around the earth to make everything go back in time" And while contemplating what would actually happen (People flying up into the atmosphere from the fairly rapid decrease in movement).

Either way, superman saves lois, however the entire reason he moved the earth backwards was because lois was killed. So, he never would have went back meaning lois would have die.. Ect.

So what happens? Does the universe explode, implode, or does superman just faint (Back to the future reference). Or will Some mysterious force cause him to go back in time over, and over, and over again regardless. Or maybe his doom radiation just goes off the chart (Futurama reference).

Is there any physics that explains what would happen or is it just random guesses?

I do believe everyone failed to answer your original question:

If Superman was able to reverse the direction of Earth, everything would go from 1000mph to -1000mp, assuming he reversed the earths spin exactly, thus everything would quickly become chaos. The conservation of energy would apply and I would have a really bad headache, assuming I still had a head or body. Lois would still be dead and Superman would sit alone on an Earth that is now rotating backwards. If he decided to return Earth to its previous spinning state, he would send yet another abbrupt change in motion furthur destroying everything on Earth.

...OR...

As what happens in the movie, he reverses time for everyone on Earth for a brief period to before Lois dies. He has now successfully reset history back to its previous state and everything now continues normally from that point on. No paradox exists because he undid her death, saved her life knowing she would die if he let the events continue as they had previously and everything else continues. Superman, of course, is still living relative to the old time and is still a few minutes older than everyone else on Earth, but that doesn't matter because he was the one who caused time to reverse. He didn't really even travel back in time either, he undid time.

 

[PCBeal23]

Originally posted by: Mrpilot007
I do believe everyone failed to answer your original question:

If Superman was able to reverse the direction of Earth, everything would go from 1000mph to -1000mp, assuming he reversed the earths spin exactly, thus everything would quickly become chaos. The conservation of energy would apply and I would have a really bad headache, assuming I still had a head or body. Lois would still be dead and Superman would sit alone on an Earth that is now rotating backwards. If he decided to return Earth to its previous spinning state, he would send yet another abbrupt change in motion furthur destroying everything on Earth.

...OR...

As what happens in the movie, he reverses time for everyone on Earth for a brief period to before Lois dies. He has now successfully reset history back to its previous state and everything now continues normally from that point on. No paradox exists because he undid her death, saved her life knowing she would die if he let the events continue as they had previously and everything else continues. Superman, of course, is still living relative to the old time and is still a few minutes older than everyone else on Earth, but that doesn't matter because he was the one who caused time to reverse. He didn't really even travel back in time either, he undid time.

Pilot, while I somewhat agree with your first answer, your second answer seems a bit . . . well, very confusing.

Time is a relative concept, and therefore cannot be "undone." According to the laws of physics, one may travel freely through time by breaking the light barrier, however, by purposefully changing history, you create one of two events:

1. An alternate universe (read "timeline") is created and time continues. However, since you have gone back in time, there are now two of "you." But by doing this, you destroy the universe you came from, leaving only the universe you create to exist. (Heisenberg uncertainty principle would theoretically allow you to travel back in time and exist in two places at once, since you cannot be certain of the state of the atoms in either of your bodies. You should even be able to interract with yourself, shake your hand and hug, as the space between cells and atoms of your bodies would still be great enough to insulate from any laws of physics dictating that two objects cannot occupy the same space. Timecop was wrong )

or
2. According to the multiverse model, Superman would travel back in time to another universe, save that universe's Lois, and then continue onward (still, having two Supermans now existing simultaneously, as they are actually two different people). The original Lois would still be dead, and that universe would go on without its Superman, unless he found a way to return. However, in returning, He would have changed nothing in that universe.

Hope that helps.