What gives HOA's their authority?

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IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
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???

I don't know how disagreeing with a concept makes someone naive. I don't think you know what that word means.

But I think I'm going to bail too. I did not realize there were so many pro HOA people around here. I thought Americans were all about freedom.

No, I’m not talking specifically about HOAs; I’m talking specifically about you not understanding the value of good neighbors and keeping home values stable or increasing. HOA or not, those are extremely important.
 

Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
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The people who trick other people to live under an HOA Dictatorship are winning. Clearly.

Unfortunately if you want to live in some areas its almost impossible to avoid it - at least around here. Our last HOA was great but our new one is run by a bunch of fucking morons although that just reflects a lot of who goes to these in our sub. I used to go to meetings but it was clear I was out voted by so i stopped going. No point in arguing that designer stop signs will not increase property value and new speed limit signs will end speeding in the sub if everyone is going to vote for them anyway
 
Nov 20, 2009
10,046
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Unfortunately if you want to live in some areas its almost impossible to avoid it - at least around here. Our last HOA was great but our new one is run by a bunch of fucking morons although that just reflects a lot of who goes to these in our sub. I used to go to meetings but it was clear I was out voted by so i stopped going. No point in arguing that designer stop signs will not increase property value and new speed limit signs will end speeding in the sub if everyone is going to vote for them anyway
You mean in some areas where people put into action written forms on how not to fuck up a neighborhood, yeah I can see the point.

A friend of mine lives in an older neighborhood that had an HOA. Must have been established in the late 1980's. But as time went buy the ever changing HOA board went from mandatory to voluntary to oblivion. Now they have the purple house across the street. Oh yeah, quite fitting in the neighborhood not.
 

13Gigatons

Diamond Member
Apr 19, 2005
7,461
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You mean in some areas where people put into action written forms on how not to fuck up a neighborhood, yeah I can see the point.
A friend of mine lives in an older neighborhood that had an HOA. Must have been established in the late 1980's. But as time went buy the ever changing HOA board went from mandatory to voluntary to oblivion. Now they have the purple house across the street. Oh yeah, quite fitting in the neighborhood not.

Most suburbs don't have purple houses. Most local governments also have codes which usually need to be followed. The only difference you have legal rights and fight them in court.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
67,416
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www.anyf.ca
No, I’m not talking specifically about HOAs; I’m talking specifically about you not understanding the value of good neighbors and keeping home values stable or increasing. HOA or not, those are extremely important.


But my point is that they are not as important as the freedom to do what I want in/on my own property. I could not care less what my house value or how "good" my neighbours are if it means I can't even enjoy myself in my own property because of ridiculous rules about every little thing. A property is a place to live, and enjoy life, not to look at or dwell on it's worth. The best types of properties tend to be the cheapest, and often not the nicest, but you can do way more. Like rural areas out of city limits etc.

As a side note I did not realize weeds could grow that high. It's been super hot here so I kinda neglected my lawn in the past week or two. I'm probably going to mow around them when I do mow, I'm seriously curious to see just how tall those things get.
 

snoopy7548

Diamond Member
Jan 1, 2005
8,061
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But my point is that they are not as important as the freedom to do what I want in/on my own property. I could not care less what my house value or how "good" my neighbours are if it means I can't even enjoy myself in my own property because of ridiculous rules about every little thing. A property is a place to live, and enjoy life, not to look at or dwell on it's worth.

As a side note I did not realize weeds could grow that high. It's been super hot here so I kinda neglected my lawn in the past week or two. I'm probably going to mow around them when I do mow, I'm seriously curious to see just how tall those things get.

Plant some kudzu... :p
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
359
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But my point is that they are not as important as the freedom to do what I want in/on my own property. I could not care less what my house value or how "good" my neighbours are if it means I can't even enjoy myself in my own property because of ridiculous rules about every little thing. A property is a place to live, and enjoy life, not to look at or dwell on it's worth. The best types of properties tend to be the cheapest, and often not the nicest, but you can do way more. Like rural areas out of city limits etc.

As a side note I did not realize weeds could grow that high. It's been super hot here so I kinda neglected my lawn in the past week or two. I'm probably going to mow around them when I do mow, I'm seriously curious to see just how tall those things get.

That's kind of what we are getting at here. HOAs wouldn't be needed if the people who don't care about their yards and property values just went to secluded areas so they could do whatever it is they want to do, or nothing, with their yards and homes. Most of us in neighborhoods don't like seeing houses fall into disarray and overtaken with weeds. That's likely to mean that when something bigger happens, any damages or distress will remain for far longer than it needs to be. Broken window? Eh in no hurry. Big tree limb fell off dying tree? Eh it can wait, it's not going anywhere. Fence is falling apart? Whatever. I have more weeds than grass? Hey it's still green or brown and not straight up mud!

You continue to say you'd rather do whatever you want to do, to hell with property values and neighbors. Really, it sure seems you apparently aren't meant to live near neighbors, period.

Property values have everything to do with keeping the neighborhood in decent economic standing. When values fall and you find your car getting broken into more often, if not worse, you might start to concern yourself with the quality of the neighborhood.


I get that people cherish personal freedoms, but to live in a society is to accept that we must willingly let go of some freedoms out of respect and to keep the peace. Just because you *can* do something, it doesn't mean you should. Your neighbors would probably greatly appreciate if you show at least a modicum of interest in maintaining your property, at least until you move away. Because if you want all these freedoms to do fuck all with your property, you should be living in a secluded area.

And yes you always have a choice for homes. When you voluntarily purchase a property in a well-kept neighborhood, you should be acknowledging that this property will probably require more effort and upkeep. As I said before, that actually has safety ramifications.

Too many people don't though, and make otherwise great looking neighborhoods devolve into chaos, and this is why HOAs were born. Yes many are absolutely shit, no HOA is anywhere near perfect, and not a single person on this board has stated that HOAs are the best thing since sliced bread. Really it's more of a necessary evil that some of us are more willing than others to put up with. Hell that goes for living in a city and/or civilization in general, it's a necessary evil if you want the many benefits that come with community.
 
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Skel

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2001
6,214
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Unfortunately if you want to live in some areas its almost impossible to avoid it - at least around here. Our last HOA was great but our new one is run by a bunch of fucking morons although that just reflects a lot of who goes to these in our sub. I used to go to meetings but it was clear I was out voted by so i stopped going. No point in arguing that designer stop signs will not increase property value and new speed limit signs will end speeding in the sub if everyone is going to vote for them anyway

You should never stop fighting an idiot HOA. It might be a chore, but someone should always be the voice of reason.

Most suburbs don't have purple houses. Most local governments also have codes which usually need to be followed. The only difference you have legal rights and fight them in court.

I've never seen nor heard of a code that dictates what color a person can paint their house. Nor have I seen nor heard of one that requires things like fences be fixed (unless it's holding a dog back) or weeds be removed. You seem to think without an HOA you have a ton of rights to tell someone how to maintain their home. The reality is you don't in most cases. In the few areas you do, you're waiting for a guy to come out and ticket the homeowner (which takes forever, at least in most cities I've read/heard about) and even then the homeowner may not repair it. They might repair/maintain something long enough for the city to stop ticketing them and then let it go again. I could attempt to sue a homeowner for my loss in home value, but that's an uphill battle without some rule to go against. That 'freedom' you want goes both ways. The neighbor has the 'freedom' to let his home go to shit and screw with your home's value. I do like how you say 'most suburbs don't' and that's true.. but as was said in other posts, it's all fun and games until you get a deadbeat/asshole homeowner. Then without some set of agreed upon rules you're screwed. If you don't like the rules and are a homeowner you have the legal right to go to the meetings and argue them to change.. YMMV, but you should do it.
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
33,656
687
126
But my point is that they are not as important as the freedom to do what I want in/on my own property. I could not care less what my house value or how "good" my neighbours are if it means I can't even enjoy myself in my own property because of ridiculous rules about every little thing. A property is a place to live, and enjoy life, not to look at or dwell on it's worth. The best types of properties tend to be the cheapest, and often not the nicest, but you can do way more. Like rural areas out of city limits etc.

1. You still aren’t getting WHY you need to be concerned with home values, even though it has been explained numerous times. I don’t know how anyone can possibly make it any clearer. You only need to look back around 10 years ago for obvious and stunning examples of what happened to folks when their home values plummeted.
2. “The best types of properties tend to be the cheapest”: That statement is so hilariously wrong that I won’t even begin to touch it.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
67,416
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126
www.anyf.ca
1. You still aren’t getting WHY you need to be concerned with home values, even though it has been explained numerous times. I don’t know how anyone can possibly make it any clearer. You only need to look back around 10 years ago for obvious and stunning examples of what happened to folks when their home values plummeted.
2. “The best types of properties tend to be the cheapest”: That statement is so hilariously wrong that I won’t even begin to touch it.


1. I know why, I just don't consider it all that important to me. Crime happens anywhere, in fact thieves prefer the nicer neighborhoods. Just because someone lets their lawn grow or paints their house a non standard colour it's not going to suddenly drop the value to the point that it turns into a ghetto. The odds of my house value going down by an amount large enough that it will actually affect things seriously is not going to be influenced by how people upkeep their houses but by some other factor that nobody can control, like a mine closure.


2. And yes, most properties in the bush or small cities tend to be very cheap and they are better. Seems the smaller city/area you go to, the more you get for your money. The main drawback though is being further from work, and possibly no access to good internet. So such property is probably best suited for a cottage and then retire there later. That's kinda what I'd like to do some day. I'm always keeping my eye open for interesting properties in the area but not really serious at buying yet. To be fair I'm comparing non lake front properties here. To find a lake front property it will be more expensive. But even so fairly cheap ones do pop up.
 

Raduque

Lifer
Aug 22, 2004
13,141
138
106
HOAs wouldn't be needed if the people who don't care about their yards and property values just went to secluded areas so they could do whatever it is they want to do, or nothing, with their yards and homes. Most of us in neighborhoods don't like seeing houses fall into disarray and overtaken with weeds. That's likely to mean that when something bigger happens, any damages or distress will remain for far longer than it needs to be. Broken window? Eh in no hurry. Big tree limb fell off dying tree? Eh it can wait, it's not going anywhere. Fence is falling apart? Whatever. I have more weeds than grass? Hey it's still green or brown and not straight up mud!

You don't always need a HOA, though. My dad's house is in a non-HOA neighborhood. Everybody takes care of their shit. Not a single one of the 40-50 houses has an issue with super tall grass, broken down cars, junk all over, house damage or odd colors, or bad/ugly lawns. Grass gets a little high (4" maybe, not 4'), it'll get mowed when it ain't so hot out in South Texas. Broken window? Fix that shit ASAP, it'll cost less in the long run and might even burn out your AC. Big tree limbs down? City picks up brush every other week. It's GONNA wait. My dad had 3-5 large tree limbs after a big windstorm that also knocked over the fence he shares with another house. He drug the limbs to the side of the house to wait for brush pickup, which was still a week away. Then he fought with the neighbor about the fence because of the way it's facing it's the neighbor's responsibility. Neighbor fixed the fence a week later on payday, which was a day after the brush got picked up. A HOA would've made everything worse, for no benefit, for something that got taken care of in a timely manner.
 
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destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
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You don't always need a HOA, though. My dad's house is in a non-HOA neighborhood. Everybody takes care of their shit. Not a single one of the 40-50 houses has an issue with super tall grass, broken down cars, junk all over, house damage or odd colors, or bad/ugly lawns. Grass gets a little high (4" maybe, not 4'), it'll get mowed when it ain't so hot out in South Texas. Broken window? Fix that shit ASAP, it'll cost less in the long run and might even burn out your AC. Big tree limbs down? City picks up brush every other week. It's GONNA wait. My dad had 3-5 large tree limbs after a big windstorm that also knocked over the fence he shares with another house. He drug the limbs to the side of the house to wait for brush pickup, which was still a week away. Then he fought with the neighbor about the fence because of the way it's facing it's the neighbor's responsibility. Neighbor fixed the fence a week later on payday, which was a day after the brush got picked up. A HOA would've made everything worse, for no benefit, for something that got taken care of in a timely manner.

It's a mixed bag.
For one, you say an HOA would have made all that worse, but that's not at all some kind of hard and fast rule. When I say things need to be dealt with in an appropriate time frame, I don't mean the next day for something like a major tree limb. This is life, this is reality, shit takes time to get done. But it shouldn't take weeks and/or months (depending upon situation, some things take longer than others). Yes we have to wait to schedule someone to help repair something or otherwise wait until there's at least time available to do something (because most of us have jobs), and that's ignoring any potential financial difficulties affording repairs. This happens -- life that is -- to all of us. I would say that in my experience, reasonable timeframes are reasonably applied. Some things just take longer, and all of us with feet firmly in the real world understand that.

On the flip side though, if you can't afford simple repairs for fairly "normal" house repairs, then you are probably in over your head and have too much house/property for your income. Nothing necessarily wrong with that at all, that's a situation many people fall into, but it's something that should very much be calculated when you are deciding on how much home you can afford. This is what really tends to be the driving force behind any decline in economic status, or any increase in blight. People who can't afford to fix their house and/or property, and things slowly go downhill. As I said, there is nothing at all wrong with that picture on an individual scale, but when you suddenly have half a neighborhood facing that situation, blight moves in real fast. When home prices are low, rates are low, and banks are stupid, you get a ton of people with "cheap" homes that totally miscalculated how much the property taxes are, how much they should have for home repair, the increased average costs of repairs due to increased square footage, etc. When a nice neighborhood has went some years with numerous foreclosures, total market rate for the entire neighborhood drops. There are many buyers who do not want to be anywhere near a glut of foreclosed homes, for some very obvious and sane reasons.The individual families at first are likely perfectly normal folk, but over time new families moving in may bring some baggage. And it snowballs downhill from there.

And of course, HOAs suffer from foreclosures too, no neighborhood is exempt no matter how strict or hawkish. You know the phrase, "life finds a way" - well, "shit finds a way" is just as true. ;)

One other thing you bring up is government response time. You seem to have a nice response time in your experience. This is not universally true. Grass 4" tall getting complaints (and official response before it gets much longer, which means a rapid response) is kind of ridiculous. I'm assuming there's some exaggeration in that statement, but even what most of us consider reasonable response times are routinely missed by many jurisdictions.

But also as you say, there are plenty of neighborhoods out there that are not in HOAs and yet remain in wonderful shape. This seems to be a product of luck more than anything, these are beautiful neighborhoods that have been saved from too many foreclosures and blight. The neighbors all care. That's certainly how it should be, but is not that way in many areas. Cities can have all the regulations they want but if enforcement is slow unwanted behavior will never be fully discouraged.
 
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Exterous

Super Moderator
Jun 20, 2006
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You don't always need a HOA, though. My dad's house is in a non-HOA neighborhood. Everybody takes care of their shit. Not a single one of the 40-50 houses has an issue with super tall grass, broken down cars, junk all over, house damage or odd colors, or bad/ugly lawns. Grass gets a little high (4" maybe, not 4'), it'll get mowed when it ain't so hot out in South Texas. Broken window? Fix that shit ASAP, it'll cost less in the long run and might even burn out your AC. Big tree limbs down? City picks up brush every other week. It's GONNA wait. My dad had 3-5 large tree limbs after a big windstorm that also knocked over the fence he shares with another house. He drug the limbs to the side of the house to wait for brush pickup, which was still a week away. Then he fought with the neighbor about the fence because of the way it's facing it's the neighbor's responsibility. Neighbor fixed the fence a week later on payday, which was a day after the brush got picked up. A HOA would've made everything worse, for no benefit, for something that got taken care of in a timely manner.

One of the reasons HOAs are popular around here is the counties generally make the residents of the subdivisions responsible for the subdivision roads and any retention ponds used. So developers setup an HOA to collect dues and put a certain amount in reserve to pay for those large ticket items. That way homeowners don't each get a $7k bill when the roads need to be resurfaced. I'm guessing your dad's house is the more traditional house off a 'regular' street rather than a subdivision street? (Or the counties in your area maintain subdivision roads?)
 

snoopy7548

Diamond Member
Jan 1, 2005
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One of the reasons HOAs are popular around here is the counties generally make the residents of the subdivisions responsible for the subdivision roads and any retention ponds used. So developers setup an HOA to collect dues and put a certain amount in reserve to pay for those large ticket items. That way homeowners don't each get a $7k bill when the roads need to be resurfaced. I'm guessing your dad's house is the more traditional house off a 'regular' street rather than a subdivision street? (Or the counties in your area maintain subdivision roads?)

Around my area, there are HOA neighborhoods and non-HOA neighborhoods. The HOA neighborhoods tend to be limited to townhouse developments, whereas the non-HOA neighborhoods are just your typical suburban/rural neighborhoods - they're subdivisions with single-family homes off of main and secondary streets. Even the brand new developments don't have HOAs.

All of the neighborhoods in my town seem pretty well-kept, and the newer ones are extremely well-kept, and my town isn't exactly the nicest town in the area.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
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Around my area, there are HOA neighborhoods and non-HOA neighborhoods. The HOA neighborhoods tend to be limited to townhouse developments, whereas the non-HOA neighborhoods are just your typical suburban/rural neighborhoods - they're subdivisions with single-family homes off of main and secondary streets. Even the brand new developments don't have HOAs.

All of the neighborhoods in my town seem pretty well-kept, and the newer ones are extremely well-kept, and my town isn't exactly the nicest town in the area.

How are your taxes?

Some areas put up with higher taxes for stuff like that because they have always seen what enough funding can do for a community; other areas have either been piss poor at anything resembling management or other factors have resulted in it being a tough sell to raise taxes. It usually goes hand in hand, but piss-poor management is usually the chief instigator, and at least around here in much of the Midwest, taxes are modest (but all levels do levy them, state, county, city/village/township/etc) -- we get taxed on everything, but modestly. Then again, some areas still have higher taxes and still have piss poor management (Michigan, in general. Like poor Exterous, slaving away just some handful of hours away, one state away to the north of me... I can see that filthy border a whole mile or less away).
 

snoopy7548

Diamond Member
Jan 1, 2005
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How are your taxes?

Some areas put up with higher taxes for stuff like that because they have always seen what enough funding can do for a community; other areas have either been piss poor at anything resembling management or other factors have resulted in it being a tough sell to raise taxes. It usually goes hand in hand, but piss-poor management is usually the chief instigator, and at least around here in much of the Midwest, taxes are modest (but all levels do levy them, state, county, city/village/township/etc) -- we get taxed on everything, but modestly. Then again, some areas still have higher taxes and still have piss poor management (Michigan, in general. Like poor Exterous, slaving away just some handful of hours away, one state away to the north of me... I can see that filthy border a whole mile or less away).

Not terrible, <2% of my home's value. ~$5200/year which is a bit higher than average for Massachusetts but in-line with the surrounding towns and cities.

But as I said, my town isn't really the nicest one in the area. The schools are only OK, and it's more of a working-class town.

The HOAs around here are ridiculous. I think the cheapest monthly fee is around $300, with most being $400-500/month, and they only cover maintenance, snow removal, master insurance, gyms, and sometimes cable TV. They get to enjoy lower real estate taxes, but not by a whole lot.
 

DietDrThunder

Platinum Member
Apr 6, 2001
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How are your taxes?

Some areas put up with higher taxes for stuff like that because they have always seen what enough funding can do for a community; other areas have either been piss poor at anything resembling management or other factors have resulted in it being a tough sell to raise taxes. It usually goes hand in hand, but piss-poor management is usually the chief instigator, and at least around here in much of the Midwest, taxes are modest (but all levels do levy them, state, county, city/village/township/etc) -- we get taxed on everything, but modestly. Then again, some areas still have higher taxes and still have piss poor management (Michigan, in general. Like poor Exterous, slaving away just some handful of hours away, one state away to the north of me... I can see that filthy border a whole mile or less away).

~2% of home value for property taxes, $189 every 6 months for HOA dues, no State income tax, sales taxes 8.25%. The biggest money pit for our HOA is the community pool. Looking at our HOA budget, if we didn’t have the pool, our HOA dues would probably be less than $200 a year.
 

Raduque

Lifer
Aug 22, 2004
13,141
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When I say things need to be dealt with in an appropriate time frame, I don't mean the next day for something like a major tree limb.

Everything I've read online about HOAs though, has me thinking that a board member would be out there the next day taking pictures and mailing notices that it needs to be removed in two business days or $fine.

Some things just take longer, and all of us with feet firmly in the real world understand that.

From what I've read, HOA board members have not only their feet, but their entire bodies firmly in another plane of reality.

I'm guessing your dad's house is the more traditional house off a 'regular' street rather than a subdivision street? (Or the counties in your area maintain subdivision roads?)

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by subdivision road. I know you turn off a main 5-lane (two each way + turning lane) street down an unlined (as in, no lane dividers) road about two blocks, then you either go left or right and enter the neighborhood. The streets are unlined there, too, and in the I dunno 12-ish years he's lived there, I've never seen anybody doing anything to the streets - but I haven't seen any damage to the streets in that time frame either.
 

destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
28,799
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Everything I've read online about HOAs though, has me thinking that a board member would be out there the next day taking pictures and mailing notices that it needs to be removed in two business days or $fine.

Well, there's what you read online, and what you experience.

From what I've read, HOA board members have not only their feet, but their entire bodies firmly in another plane of reality.

I'm an HOA board member firmly in this plane of reality.


If there are things said online about board members taking pictures and enforcing this and that immediately, I have to wonder about the homeowner complaining about that. The reason I say that is because from my experience, that kind of approach is really only used for problem owners in the first place, ones that essentially we may be trying to force out, and for us the problems tend to be renters. Renting is something we are trying to fix in the bylaws as well.
 
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destrekor

Lifer
Nov 18, 2005
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Not terrible, <2% of my home's value. ~$5200/year which is a bit higher than average for Massachusetts but in-line with the surrounding towns and cities.

But as I said, my town isn't really the nicest one in the area. The schools are only OK, and it's more of a working-class town.

The HOAs around here are ridiculous. I think the cheapest monthly fee is around $300, with most being $400-500/month, and they only cover maintenance, snow removal, master insurance, gyms, and sometimes cable TV. They get to enjoy lower real estate taxes, but not by a whole lot.

But what are other taxes like? Property tax is only one thing, other locality taxes are what are more responsible for community maintenance costs (roads, lights, parks, etc)

For those HOA prices, I'm curious what kind of community they are. Are they townhomes?
What is covered by "maintenance." That's a large catch-all that can cover a host of things.

I pay about $150/month but maintenance includes the roofs, exterior walls, foundation, common sewer, outdoor lighting, lawn maintenance, tree maintenance, snow removal, etc. It's a townhouse style condo.
 

IndyColtsFan

Lifer
Sep 22, 2007
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Our HOA is really lax - probably too lax, IMO. There is a home in our neighborhood where the lawn is full of weeds and is never regularly mowed. The HOAs solution is to ask for volunteers to mow the guy’s lawn. I guess I’m an asshole, but this has been going on for YEARS with this property and I think they need to fine him.
 
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Skel

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2001
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Everything I've read online about HOAs though, has me thinking that a board member would be out there the next day taking pictures and mailing notices that it needs to be removed in two business days or $fine.



From what I've read, HOA board members have not only their feet, but their entire bodies firmly in another plane of reality.

Proves my point that most people that really hate HOAs have either had a really bad dealings with one, or more likely they've heard nothing but horror stories.


I'm not entirely sure what you mean by subdivision road. I know you turn off a main 5-lane (two each way + turning lane) street down an unlined (as in, no lane dividers) road about two blocks, then you either go left or right and enter the neighborhood. The streets are unlined there, too, and in the I dunno 12-ish years he's lived there, I've never seen anybody doing anything to the streets - but I haven't seen any damage to the streets in that time frame either.

Some places have roads that are built and maintained by an community. An example would be like my neighborhood. We're gated and everything inside the gate to include the roads and sidewalks are all maintained by the HOA. The roads leading up to the gate is maintained by the city, but once you pull up to the gates it's ours. A lot of people don't know, or care really, how a lot of property is maintained. It is one of the main reasons an HOA exists.
 

Skel

Diamond Member
Apr 11, 2001
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Well, there's what you read online, and what you experience.



I'm an HOA board member firmly in this plane of reality.

I'm an HOA board member and I exist in many planes of reality.. ;)

If there are things said online about board members taking pictures and enforcing this and that immediately, I have to wonder about the homeowner complaining about that. The reason I say that is because from my experience, that kind of approach is really only used for problem owners in the first place, ones that essentially we may be trying to force out, and for us the problems tend to be renters. Renting is something we are trying to fix in the bylaws as well.

Funny enough, the only people I've seen take pictures is people that aren't on our board. One case was a couple that didn't like one of the rules and was taking pictures of everyone they thought was breaking a rule (which is a massive pet peeve of mine, the idea that we should just throw all the rules out because someone broke a different one). The couple ended up moving on, which was best as they made everyone around them pissed. The worst part was we had already agreed to allow them a special case on the parking rule they were breaking because our Property Manager misspoke to them about it. I guess they just wanted to make us cranky. The other was a jackass that was creepy as hell and went around taking pictures of people's backyards. I'd be worried he was casing places if he wasn't so old and broken down. He sold and moved on so the problem was resolved. I'm sure if he stayed he would have been arrested. The police were called a few times by other homeowners over him.

Renters are a massive pain though it's not their fault in most cases. They don't know the rules most of the time. We wanted to make sure landlords gave a copy of the Rules and Regs to all renters, but there's no way we can enforce that.Having said that we do get a fair share of college jackasses though, being so close to ASU. Those guys normally piss me off as even when it's a simple rule like don't let your dog run around the neighborhood off a leash they still tell you to fuck off. We've also had some issues with AirBnb renters. Those idiots don't care at all about anything and in one case tried to help themselves to our pool furniture. Those are the only ones I've looked into banning.
 
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