What does the Bible say about Israel and War?

[Jfur]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
What evidence do you have that the Bible and/or Israel is the motivating force behind Bush's actions? ANY?
--------------------------------------

All layed out in the first post and why it was so long. And I DON'T DON'T DON'T DON'T care whether you think I'm right or not. I'm looking for what the Bible says so I can make a better judgment on what I have here derived out of my huge unconscious holistic processing power, combined with my deep paranoia, and the fact that Bush is exibiting an insane, suicidal and counterproductive need for speed and with all the signs that he doesn't care what he is doing to the country. Hunters use hounds. There is more than one kind of nose. And don't worry, I just want to know for myself. You don't have to agree.

Don't tell me who won the election, don't tell me I'm bashing Christianity. Don't tell me you don't care. Don't tell me Bush is thinking something else. Tell me what the Bible says so I don't have to duplicate the effort. Of course you cn tell me what you want, but it will be clear evidence to me of a cludgy thought process.

Hey, what am I gonna do when I find out, change the world?

I'd like to point out that it may not be an explicit connection, i.e., Bush is not using the Bible as a plan for action. Whether one is Christian or not much of our culture is based on certain (often unspoken) assumptions, e.g., there is going to be a catastrophic end of time (soon) and that the "good" (again, definitions differ substantially) will suffer but then be saved as the world deteriorates. For some, the notion that Israel is God's country will motivate them to be more supportive based on that alone (or perhaps fear of spiting God). That is in the subtext of much that we think about and do, even if we don't consciously accept it. As long as that is the case, it makes us expert and even bring about certain events, as they corroborate our fears/beliefs.

 

[ToBeMe]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
ToBeMe discovers the obvious and calls it epiphany. I fished for my car keys in my front pocket and look at that, car keys! Those tricky pants, they thought they could fool me.

Somehow, I'm not suprised that you could lose your keys in your front pocket! On the other hand, as usual, nothing is clear, or as it seems when beamer is involved................... LOL!

 

[Moonbeam]

The whereabouts of my keys and the question asked in this thread have always been I think, quite obvious. Neither I nor my pants were trying to hide anything.

Jfur, are you a breath of fresh air. Your point, that we bring into reality our suppositions and expectations is just the line of thinking that got me suspecting Christian dogma as a possible motive. I happen to think we cause our worst fears to happen because we have a death wish. We want to get back to some experience that we have repressed. It draws us like a moth to flame. We can't allow ourselves to remember so we get back to it unconsciously by our actions. Traumatic childhood events are a kind of death, the fear to be who you were when the catastrophe happened and the adoption of a false, but parentally approved identity. It is the very death that real Christianity, I think, is designed to cure, to heal. Christ's death and resurrection is exactly what we want and need, but are afraid of. Our fear of that old devil memory is so great that we look for a short cut. We would rather die than remember. We would rather destroy the world. I gotta get to heaven to stop this pain. The deeper the madness the greater the pull.

 

[Moonbeam]

ToBeMe, I don't deny I may be confusing. I can't get outside myself to objectively evaluate. I'm damn sure though, sometimes it isn't me. Whe is when, that's the question.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam

The long term prognosis, it seems obvious is that Israel will be destroyed

It occurred to me that Israel will fail in the course of time under present trends.

You know there have been many thousands of people over many thousands of years that thought these very same thoughts. Perhaps the very fact that Israel still exists is proof in itself of the Bible's legitimacy?

(Watch out for my toes. I have big feet.)

 

[Moonbeam]

Um, let me see 2002 minus 1948, duhduhduhduhduh duh Yep, thousands of years.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
Um, let me see 2002 minus 1948, duhduhduhduhduh duh Yep, thousands of years.

Well, you see, I was execting something like that. But if that's the case, then the Bible cannot possibly be referring to the modern state of Israel either. It didn't exist then either. When the Bible referrs to Israel, it means Biblical Israel. The borders of the state of Israel today are not CLOSE to the borders of biblical Israel.

 

[Moonbeam]

The borders thing is news. Your point is a technical one, modern vs old. Truth is not the issue here. It's what people believe.

Can anybody answer my question?

 

[ToBeMe]

Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The borders thing is news. Your point is a technical one, modern vs old. Truth is not the issue here. It's what people believe.

Can anybody answer my question?

No...............Next question!

 

[ABErickson]

Here's how it's supposed to end (hey, I'm just answering the question)!!

LK 21:8 He replied: "Watch out that you are not deceived. For many will come in my name, claiming, `I am he,' and, `The time is near.' Do not follow them. 9 When you hear of wars and revolutions, do not be frightened. These things must happen first, but the end will not come right away."

LK 21:10 Then he said to them: "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, famines and pestilences in various places, and fearful events and great signs from heaven.

LK 21:12 "But before all this, they will lay hands on you and persecute you. They will deliver you to synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name. 13 This will result in your being witnesses to them. 14 But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. 15 For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. 17 All men will hate you because of me. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish. 19 By standing firm you will gain life.

LK 21:20 "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

LK 21:25 "There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26 Men will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."

 

[Moonbeam]

I thought there was stuff about a temple and Red Bull malt liquor or something.

 

[Riprorin]

In Genesis 15:18, the Bible said the descendants of Abraham (Abram) would have their own country, between Egypt and the Euphrates. This prophecy has been fulfilled more than once. About 3400 years ago, the Jews first established Israel. Then, about 2900 years ago, Israel divided into two kingdoms, called Judah and Israel. Both kingdoms were later conquered by the Assyrians and Babylonians. But, in 1948, the Jews regained independence for Israel. It was the first time in 2900 years that Israel was both united and independent.

Written: perhaps 1400 BC
Fulfilled: 1400 BC and in 1948

 

[Riprorin]

Israel is the only nation who's boundaries have been defined by God.

Land of Promise

 

[JellyBaby]

Can anybody answer my question?

I'll give the wheel a spin, though instead of talking to the title's question I'll go for the more secular "why is Bush in such a hurry to invade Iraq?". I believe it could be simple, dark fear.

Bush, Chenney and the cabinet are still deathly afraid. The 4 terrorist controlled jets targeted the WTC, the Pentagon, the Capitol building and the White House. if that plan had been carried out to perfection they would have completely destroyed our government, military leadership and economy.

Biblical prophecy might heighten the sense of fear, driving him to act swiftly. He only has 2 years left after all. Perhaps god spoke to him and he heard the message loud and clear. If that were true, though, I think his speeches would reflect it. Still, a "get them before they get us" mentality is plausible.

Fear leads to anger, Yoda tells us. Truth is the first causalty of war and since Iraq can't possibly defend itself and the Afghanistan campaign didn't squash all the bugs, the anger is not satiated.

The real answer is probably either simple opportunity or he's holding back on that "bombshell" some Talking Heads thought he might drop on the UN but didn't.

 

[OneOfTheseDays]

Beamer you just don't get it.

Let's suppose that somehow the country of Israel is destroyed and nuked to hell. Now, this would contradict the Bible in and of itself, as you have explained. Your train of thought would only apply to the extreme fundamentalist who takes the Bible word for word.

Most Christians and Jews, read the bible contextually. They know the Bible isn't exactly the most historically accurate book, but what they value are the messages and morals that are found in the book. Nobody expects everything they read in the Bible to come true.

Now what would probably happen to the Christian community and the Bible itself would be quite negative. No longer could someone claim the Bible as their sole proof in an argument "It's in the Bible, it's gotta be true", if it is fundamentally wrong on something so great.

Honestly, I wish organized religion and religious institutions never existed. They have caused so much harm compared to the good that they have done. Religion should be something that's both personal and communal, but that doesnt mean we should be told every Sunday what to believe. I think that the most faithful people are those that have struggled with their own faith and religion the most. The most intellectual Christians I know are the ones who accept the fact that it all comes down to one thing, faith.

 

[MrPALCO]

Moonbeam,
My my, your ability to see contradiction in the Words of God illustrates the correctness of something God said:
"My Words are for the Living, not the dead."

 

[Pocatello]

Don't care what the Bible say about Israel. All I care about is that Saddam Hussein should be dead by any mean neccessary before 2004. Moonbeam's wishful thinking about the demise of Israel is absurd at best. Of all the wars started over there, the Arabs started it, then Israel finished it.

Moonbeam is right about one thing

He who lives by the sword dies by it

All the Arabs who think they could destroy Israel have paid a very heavy price.

 

[Moonbeam]

Well thanks to Big Al and to Riprorin for the link and to Jelly too for a friendly alternate view. Sudheer Anne, while it is quite possible I don't get it, I find nothing in your post to be odd different or contradictory to my own attitudes.

You also may be right, MrPALCO, but I believe that you have just flipped out a comment without much real thought.

You said, "My my, your ability to see contradiction in the Words of God illustrates the correctness of something God said:", but I don't see and didn't point to any contradictions in the Words of God here. I don't know the 'Words of God' very well which was why I asked the question. I can hardly point out any contradictions in them. I was posing this question, are we going to war in Iraq to prevent a contradiction from occurring and I think I even suggested that from the perspective to which I refer, that would be seen as carrying out the will of God, no contradiction at all.

I like to keep sharp on such matters MrPALCO, so I don't find myself in a Jim Jones bunker or smeared over Waco, dead, unexpectedly, by the hand of some religious nut case. I want to know up front if I'm being slated for extermination and the fact is being kept from me for my greater good. My concern is about the living who think there's something so much better in death they will pilot planes into buildings, or maybe start WW3. I think it is they who are the living dead.

But it's too bad. Probably of anybody I could think of, you would have been able to answer my question even with enthusiasm and zeal. It seemed like it was right down your alley.

Going out of town.

 

[MrPALCO]

<FONT size=1>What does the Bible say about Israel and War?
</FONT>
It says that Israel will be the victor in any war, even if the whole world comes against her.

It will.

 

[m2kewl]

Originally posted by: txgixer

Originally posted by: Mister T who cares what the bible says

 

[Riprorin]

Moonbeam, in regard to your question about what the Bible says about Israel and war, here's one view. Please bear in mind that there are differences in interpretation. However, generally speaking, Israel will be attacked, it will prevail through God's intervention, and the Jewish people will turn to the Living God.

Russian/Arab Invasion of Israel

 

[Riprorin]

Here's one view that summarizes the end times:

BRIEF SUMMARY CHART:
WHERE DO WE STAND IN TIME?

Jesus Christ came in the flesh-Jn 1:1,14

Jesus Christ crucified

Jesus Christ rose from the dead

Jesus Christ ascended up to be with His Father in heaven

The temple destroyed, approximately 70 A.D.

(From 70 A.D. to May 14, 1948)


Israel reborn May 14, 1948

Approximately 365 prophecies being fulfilled

WE ARE HERE

Coming soon?the Rapture

The Antichrist comes forth

A covenant is confirmed by the Antichrist with many; the Tribulation begins, which is the seventieth week of Daniel

The Russian invasion of Israel occurs; one-fourth of the world's population dies

The midst of the Tribulation and the abomination of desolation

The mark of the Antichrist is required or cannot buy or sell; the worship of the image of the Antichrist is required or the penalty is death

The kings of the east march to Israel; one-third of the world's population dies

The Tribulation ends

Immediately after the Tribulation, the Battle of Armageddon explodes and Jesus Christ returns; few people are left alive

The judgment of the nations

The Millennium: one thousand years of peace

Jesus Christ, the King of kings and Lord of lords, reigns on the earth

(One thousand years)


The Millennium ends

A little season

The final rebellion

The heavens and earth pass away

The great white throne judgment

New heaven, new earth, New Jerusalem

Eternity with Jesus for the saints; eternity in the lake of fire for the unsaved

[Copyright © 2000 bibledesk.com and Gospel Truth Publishing?copied with written permission.]
BIBLE PROPHECY?THE CHART MAY BE COPIED WITH THE FOLLOWING RESTRICTIONS:
IT MUST BE REPRODUCED IN ITS ENTIRETY AND MAY NOT BE SOLD OR USED FOR PROFIT IN ANY WAY. THIS COPYRIGHT INFORMATION MUST BE INCLUDED.

 

[ThePresence]

This link might help ya, Moonie. Bible411

(Mind you, I dont believe a word of it. But it certainly seems to give a Christian prespective)

 

[Riprorin]

Prescence, how do Jews interpret Scripture regarding the end times and what is your personal view?

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: Riprorin
Prescence, how do Jews interpret Scripture regarding the end times and what is your personal view?

I doubt I could explain it properly on an internet forum. It's pretty deep and stuff. Email me if you'd like. My email is in my profile.