What does Christianity have to do with gun control?

[Infohawk]

One thing that amazes me about American protestant fundamentalists is that they project their religion onto so many issues even when they have nothing to do with religion. The result is a bizarre belief system that is as estranged from the bible as it is from reality.

I was flipping through the radio stations and came across a zealot religious station. After discussing why NOW was bad for women because women belong at home and advertising fundamentalist schools, they went on to a segment about gun control. Obviously, they were very opposed to it. Of course, this has nothing to do with religion or the bible, yet clearly the fundy line is that guns should be allowed. There is no connection between guns and the bible (if anything, turn the other cheek jesus probably wouldn't like them). Yet these zealots are fanatics about it. What else is this except non-thinking sheepism?

Please don't discuss the virtue of gun control. We're discussing the relation between gun control and the bible / zealotry.

 

[Last Rezort]

No relation.

 

[Jhhnn]

Simple wedge issue politicking, Infohawk- "With Us or Against Us".

Which is not to deny the validity of your observation at all, but rather to confirm it. The sad truth is that both the fundies and gun advocates are being used and abused by the big money corporate interest part of the Repub machine, although I doubt they'll wake up prior to a very rude awakening courtesy of their deceivers...

 

[K1052]

No connection with religion.

 

[Rainsford]

Well, the supposed "connection" is that far right fundies are for personal freedom and individual rights, including gun ownership. Nothing could be farther from the truth. They don't believe in gun ownership because they believe in individual rights. They believe in gun ownership because they want to own guns. They are libertarians when it comes to themselves, and authoritarians when it comes to anyone who disagrees with them.

THAT is the connection.

 

[arsbanned]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
Well, the supposed "connection" is that far right fundies are for personal freedom and individual rights, including gun ownership. Nothing could be farther from the truth. They don't believe in gun ownership because they believe in individual rights. They believe in gun ownership because they want to own guns. They are libertarians when it comes to themselves, and authoritarians when it comes to anyone who disagrees with them.

THAT is the connection.

That sums it up nicely.

 

[nageov3t]

how else would you pop a cap in Satan's ass?

 

[PrinceofWands]

Two reasons that it's absolutely related.

1.
Christians FEAR persecution. They generally walk around assuming everyone they see is either a fellow Christian or out to destroy them. Yes, I know that's a generalization, but a pretty accurate one based on my own experiences. They have seen what can happen when religion becomes unpopular and choose to prepare themselves against ever being fed to the lions again.

2.
The republicans are essentially the puppets of the church now. They are for guns, so religious people are for guns. Either totally in the party, or an enemy of the party lately.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

1.
They have seen what can happen when religion becomes unpopular and choose to prepare themselves against ever being fed to the lions again.

I don't recall Jesus talking about defending yourself with a handgun. A lot of those lion-food types were proud of what they were doing. And to a large extent, they were being consistent. They were doing what Jesus did: proclaiming their faith and not being violent even when attacked.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

1.
They have seen what can happen when religion becomes unpopular and choose to prepare themselves against ever being fed to the lions again.

I don't recall Jesus talking about defending yourself with a handgun. A lot of those lion-food types were proud of what they were doing. And to a large extent, they were being consistent. They were doing what Jesus did: proclaiming their faith and not being violent even when attacked.

I never said what they were doing was correct, or orthodox...only that it was a probably reaction and a reasonable one given the religious persecution throughout history.

I know for many people they're currently stocking up because they fear the same thing in reverse, given the sudden rise to power of evangelical and fundamentalist groups.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
I never said what they were doing was correct, or orthodox...

Fine.

only that it was a probably reaction and a reasonable one given the religious persecution throughout history.

I find it unreasonable to accept a doctrine from a book and then to not really follow it. (I also cannot recall protestants being threatened in America with violence. Sure, maybe their views are attacked, but that's about it. Maybe there's a handful of freak incidents, but that doesn't make their fear reasonable)

 

[Last Rezort]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
Well, the supposed "connection" is that far right fundies are for personal freedom and individual rights, including gun ownership. Nothing could be farther from the truth. They don't believe in gun ownership because they believe in individual rights. They believe in gun ownership because they want to own guns. They are libertarians when it comes to themselves, and authoritarians when it comes to anyone who disagrees with them.

THAT is the connection.

 

[glenn1]

I daresay most evangelicals would say that their faith gives them a sense of purpose and "guideposts" for how to live their lives, it doesn't tell them what to think on a given political question. You're presuming a correlation which I don't think exists, perhaps hoping that if you can simply categorize someone as an evangelical, that will give you an answer key to know how they'll feel on any given issue. IMHO it doesn't work that way. Being opposed to gun control is not a evangelical proposition, nor can you say that someone with those views is more or less likely to feel a certain way on most other topics either. You can't put people into little boxes (African-American, evangelical, "soccer mom") and know in advance what they think, people are more complex than any label you could assign to them.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: glenn1
I daresay most evangelicals would say that their faith gives them a sense of purpose and "guideposts" for how to live their lives, it doesn't tell them what to think on a given political question. You're presuming a correlation which I don't think exists, perhaps hoping that if you can simply categorize someone as an evangelical, that will give you an answer key to know how they'll feel on any given issue. IMHO it doesn't work that way. Being opposed to gun control is not a evangelical proposition, nor can you say that someone with those views is more or less likely to feel a certain way on most other topics either. You can't put people into little boxes (African-American, evangelical, "soccer mom") and know in advance what they think, people are more complex than any label you could assign to them.

You don't think most protestant american fundamentalists oppose gun control? You think this evangelical radio show fighting gun control was an accident or an outlier?

Nobody is saying every single zealot opposes gun control. However, it's not unreasonable to say most of them probably do. Just like it's reasonable to point out that most black support Democrats. There are patterns in society.

 

[Zebo]

Some protestant Christains don't like Bush and republicans that much:

Antiwar Christians Protest Bush College Visit

Actually in addition to Catholics; Methodists, Angelicals, Luthrans, and most non-fundis protestants are evenly split between parties. It's the white babtists, mormans and other fanatics you got to watch out for on every issue, mix politics and religion, and usually vote 100% Republican.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: Zebo
Some protestant Christains don't like Bush and republicans that much:

Antiwar Christians Protest Bush College Visit

Actually in addition to Catholics; Methodists, Angelicals, Luthrans, and most non-fundis protestants are evenly split between parties. It's the white babtists, mormans and other fanatics you got to watch out for on every issue and usually vote 100% Republican.

Right. Those are principally the ones I'm talking about. That's why I used the term "fundamentalist" to distinguish. I've also heard that non-demoninational types tend to be more fundamentalist and that's been my personal experience.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Infohawk

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
I never said what they were doing was correct, or orthodox...

Fine.

only that it was a probably reaction and a reasonable one given the religious persecution throughout history.

I find it unreasonable to accept a doctrine from a book and then to not really follow it. (I also cannot recall protestants being threatened in America with violence. Sure, maybe their views are attacked, but that's about it. Maybe there's a handful of freak incidents, but that doesn't make their fear reasonable)

It doesn't have to be denominational, just religious. You don't think there were wiccans and pagans looking at the jewish concentration camps going "yeah, told you it could happen to you too"? Once you see persecution you generally empathize and question 'could that happen to me'...at least I think most people do. Religion has been the basis of more death, oppression and evil than any other force on this planet (except maybe greed, but it'd be close).

Also, how many 'christians' are actually christians. I'd say 1 out of 100 have any clue as to what they're actually supposed to be doing or saying. It's lip service and a bunch of hypocrites...but it gives them belonging so there they are.

 

[glenn1]

You don't think most protestant american fundamentalists oppose gun control? You think this evangelical radio show fighting gun control was an accident or an outlier?

Nobody is saying every single zealot opposes gun control. However, it's not unreasonable to say most of them probably do. Just like it's reasonable to point out that most black support Democrats. There are patterns in society.

No, I'd say it's probably a fair statement to say most protestant american fundamentalists oppose gun control. I won't disagree with your patterns statement either, it's not unreasonable to point out patterns where they exist, like an NBA player will be taller on average than another person. I just hope you aren't trying to say that correlation = causation, which is what the title of your OP seems to be implying.

BTW, I think the correlation between support for gun control is far more a phenomena of location of the person involved than religious orientation. Urban folks tend to support it because of fear of inner city violence. Rural and suburban folks tend to oppose it because they don't experience drive-by shootings and crack houses. Left unspoken is the racial component of the issue, and urban whites tend to feel a sense of abandonment that they don't get a show of solidarity on gun control by suburban and rural whites.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: glenn1

You don't think most protestant american fundamentalists oppose gun control? You think this evangelical radio show fighting gun control was an accident or an outlier?

Nobody is saying every single zealot opposes gun control. However, it's not unreasonable to say most of them probably do. Just like it's reasonable to point out that most black support Democrats. There are patterns in society.

BTW, I think the correlation between support for gun control is far more a phenomena of location of the person involved than religious orientation. Urban folks tend to support it because of fear of inner city violence. Rural and suburban folks tend to oppose it because they don't experience drive-by shootings and crack houses. Left unspoken is the racial component of the issue, and urban whites tend to feel a sense of abandonment that they don't get a show of solidarity on gun control by suburban and rural whites.

Very good point...though more and more city folks are realizing that their defense and safety is really entirely up to them.

 

[Zebo]

dems are stupid for taking this issue up anyway. First most anti-gun legislation was passed with republican leadership... See they don't REALLY like guns, least not by anyone but them or thier enforcers, since it empowers people accross the board. Second they could take a huge segment away from the right who smartly use this issue to garner votes at dem expense. I've never voted Democrat in my life, guns being the number one issue stopping me. I know plenty like me. See dems as gun grabbers, and individual rights takers are more issues than just guns. It's a big problem IMO.

 

[Last Rezort]

Originally posted by: glenn1
I daresay most evangelicals would say that their faith gives them a sense of purpose and "guideposts" for how to live their lives, it doesn't tell them what to think on a given political question. You're presuming a correlation which I don't think exists, perhaps hoping that if you can simply categorize someone as an evangelical, that will give you an answer key to know how they'll feel on any given issue. IMHO it doesn't work that way. Being opposed to gun control is not a evangelical proposition, nor can you say that someone with those views is more or less likely to feel a certain way on most other topics either. You can't put people into little boxes (African-American, evangelical, "soccer mom") and know in advance what they think, people are more complex than any label you could assign to them.

Jesus said:
Turn the other cheek.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: glenn1
BTW, I think the correlation between support for gun control is far more a phenomena of location of the person involved than religious orientation. Urban folks tend to support it because of fear of inner city violence. Rural and suburban folks tend to oppose it because they don't experience drive-by shootings and crack houses. Left unspoken is the racial component of the issue, and urban whites tend to feel a sense of abandonment that they don't get a show of solidarity on gun control by suburban and rural whites.

I think the rural-urban factor is useful in the general population but not with fundamentalists.

I think fundamentalists are getting this belief as part of their general dogma. And I think this reflects poorly on their dogma because it is unrelated to the document they profess to abide by. It shows inconsistency and a lack of free thinking on their part. Again, this was a evangelical station and show. If it was a show speaking to rural people that happened to be zealots, that would be one thing. I wouldn't draw any ideas from that. But this was a ministry speaking about something that is not at all related to the bible.

 

[Infohawk]

Originally posted by: Zebo
dems are stupid for taking this issue up anyway. First most anti-gun legislation was passed with republican leadership... See they don't REALLY like guns, least not by anyone but them or thier enforcers, since it empowers people accross the board. Second they could take a huge segment away from the right who smartly use this issue to garner votes at dem expense. I've never voted Democrat in my life, guns being the number one issue stopping me. I know plenty like me. See dems as gun grabbers, and individual rights takers are more issues than just guns. It's a big problem IMO.

As I said in the OP, I don't want to go too much into the merits of gun control. (I'm not criticizing it or praising it in this thread). This is more about fundamentalists preaching things that are unrelated to the bible.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Zebo
dems are stupid for taking this issue up anyway. First most anti-gun legislation was passed with republican leadership... See they don't REALLY like guns, least not by anyone but them or thier enforcers, since it empowers people accross the board. Second they could take a huge segment away from the right who smartly use this issue to garner votes at dem expense. I've never voted Democrat in my life, guns being the number one issue stopping me. I know plenty like me. See dems as gun grabbers, and individual rights takers are more issues than just guns. It's a big problem IMO.

I agree...and it's nearly impossible to convince either side otherwise. I've been forced out of nearly every 2nd ammendment board and/or group I've ever been a part of for my work against Bushco and the neocons. It gets UGLY when you tell a fellow gunner you voted democrat and think the president is basically the anti-christ.

 

[conjur]

Most of the Fund-A-Mentals are from the Bible Belt (the south) where guns have long been an ardently fought-for right.

Besides, Praise Jesus and Pass the Ammo!