What do you think about flat tax?

[thraashman]

Also I'd like to mention that a flat sales tax would cause a huge budget increase in the IRS. Because the majority of time of the IRS is spent regulating the collection of sales tax of businesses and auditing them because of incorrect collection.



And I think UPS drivers make starting like $14 and hour or something, I know someone that used to work for UPS and I remember it was pretty good.

 

[spyordie007]

<< That is quite ludicrous, but I bet you like your job more than the average UPS driver who probably has to drink every night to keep sane. So basically you're getting paid in dollars and satisfaction of a job well done. That doesn't help buy a tv but it means your employer can get away with paying you less :frown >>


I would say this is pretty much the case with most jobs for non-profits, you tend to get paid sig. less than you would for a for-profit company, however you job usually involves more "satisfaction".
I wish I could go home just once knowing that because of me somebody's life was saved....

 

[StageLeft]

<< I wish I could go home just once knowing that because of me somebody's life was saved.... >>

There is something to be said about that. Most of us work for money. That is the only reason we go to work, but people in rescue services and other areas make money and get satisfaction. If they're lucky they get a lot of both. RCMP officers in Canada make a surprising amount of money - they can be making about $50k after a few years which in Canada isn't bad with only a few years experience, plus you get to carry a gun

 

[BuckleDownBen]

The bottom line is that if any change is made to the tax code it will help the rich far more than anyone else. Why? Because the rich have all the influence in Washington.

What does a poor person (not on welfare) get for his tax dollar? Go into the ghetto and the roads are terrible. Their streets don't get salted in the winter. If they are getting robbed, a cop may come in half an hour. The police, if anything, do them more harm than good. I don't think a man struggling to make ends meet cares about any foreign policy issue.

Now look at what a very rich man gets for his taxes. His oil company is having trouble getting oil from a country, so the US with its military steps in to smooth things out. A savings and loan goes under so the US steps in with a 20 B dollar bailout. Easy money from useless government construction projects.

I mean, look how well off the rich people in this country are. There has never been such a distribution of wealth. How can anyone say the rich are paying too much tax? I guess its like an above poster pointed out where the upper middle class pays a lot of tax and the upper class pays much less. It doesn't matter what the percentage is, the trick is to get people to stop finding loopholes, because that is what is really unfair.

 

[StageLeft]

Oh come on now if you don't think that poor people are getting more out of the country than they put in you're smoking some rich man's dope.

If a rich guy is making a million a year he's giving almost half his income into taxes a year. Do you think he is using half a million in roads or police that year? Hell no. If a poor person is making $10k year and putting in $400 into taxes or something silly like that that person - even if they live in the ghetto and smoke crack rock for fun on the weekends - is getting all they paid for and then some.

Truly rich make up a tiny percentage of society and yet we ALL enjoy, for the most part, nice roads, fire departments, police, ambulances, etc.

 

[spyordie007]

<< Oh come on now if you don't think that poor people are getting more out of the country than they put in you're smoking some rich man's dope.

If a rich guy is making a million a year he's giving almost half his income into taxes a year. Do you think he is using half a million in roads or police that year? Hell no. If a poor person is making $10k year and putting in $400 into taxes or something silly like that that person - even if they live in the ghetto and smoke crack rock for fun on the weekends - is getting all they paid for and then some.

Truly rich make up a tiny percentage of society and yet we ALL enjoy, for the most part, nice roads, fire departments, police, ambulances, etc. >>


I agree with Skoorb
The "poor man" takes a helluva lot more than he gives, lives in the slums, and doesnt do a damn thing about getting out because the government steals money from those who work their asses off to "earn money" and give it to the poor man.
Nobody has mentioned this yet, but prior to the 40's the "average" American was not taxed at all on their earnings. All the tax money was made from large businesses and contributions from wealthy individuals. There was no welfare or medicare like there is today. Nowadays there are too many people with the "entitlement mentality"

In their book the Sovereign Individual, Davidson and Lord Rees-Mogg state that America will begin to decline in the next few years simply because we have become a large welfare state, This government welfare mentality is one of the reasons Davidson and Rees-Mogg predict that America will be in financial trouble. We simply have too many people with the "take care of me" mentality.

If you want a truly fair system of taxation let's think of the hypothetical situation where you get charged money everytime the police have to come out to your house or protect you. Or after your house is half the way burned down the fire department hands you a bill? The reason they can do this is not because the poor (who are the ones who use the police's resources and time more than any other group of people) pay "their fair share of taxes", it's because those middle-class americans are paying the taxes for them. The same middle-class americans that you think it's a good idea to take more of their money if they work harder?

 

[spyordie007]

simply put by taxing a higher amout to the people who earn more you punish those who work hard and reward those who spend their life working for minimum wage. I'm sure Skoorb will agree with me if he is Canadian, I have traveled to Canada several times and the "entitlement mentality" is stronger there than it is here in the US, and all because some people think it's a good idea to punish those who work hard, and reward those who dont.

 

[StageLeft]

<< In their book the Sovereign Individual, Davidson and Lord Rees-Mogg state that America will begin to decline in the next few years simply because we have become a large welfare state, This government welfare mentality is one of the reasons Davidson and Rees-Mogg predict that America will be in financial trouble. We simply have too many people with the "take care of me" mentality. >>

Hmm...well I don't know much about these guys but having lived in both Canada and the US now I can tell you that Canada has a significantly larger amount of "take care of me" people. Taxes are higher and social services, as a result, are higher. However, for people who want to rise above the norm in income they are hampered to a much, much greater extent than in the US. Canada has a weaker economy than the US per capita, and salaries are lower. If you're content to sit on your butt you can do so. If you want to get rich you have a lot more hurdles. Canada seems to just raise taxes more and more and distribute wealth more and more evenly. Why would somebody opt to live there if their goal is to make money? Oh, I guess because "it's more than money; it's about lifestyle" - this is the classic cop-out lamer excuse Canadians give when challenged on why the economy sucks the big ballz.

Disclaimers:

1) No I don't hate Canada.
2) Yes some people make lots of money.
3) My experience was based on Eastern canada which is economically weaker than central and western anyway; I can't say for sure whether they have the "take care of my lazy ass" attitude as much and I don't think they do.

 

[yakko]

If a national sales tax of one or two percent were created with NO EXEMPTIONS then there would be a fair system and the government would have much more money than they have now. It would only work if there were no exemptions. Every time something is sold it is taxed. Period. No ifs ands or buts about it.

 

[StageLeft]

<< I'm sure Skoorb will agree with me if he is Canadian, I have traveled to Canada several times and the "entitlement mentality" is stronger there than it is here in the US >>

hehe I wrote my last post before reading this

EDIT: I gotta go to bed now

 

[Sluggo]

<< Also I'd like to mention that a flat sales tax would cause a huge budget increase in the IRS. Because the majority of time of the IRS is spent regulating the collection of sales tax of businesses and auditing them because of incorrect collection.



And I think UPS drivers make starting like $14 and hour or something, I know someone that used to work for UPS and I remember it was pretty good. >>



The IRS has nothing to do with sales tax collection. Sales tax collection is handled at the local level.

 

[911paramedic]

I wish I could go home just once knowing that because of me somebody's life was saved....

No pay could ever change that feeling for me. We (EMT's, Paramedics, Firefighters, Police, Sheriffs, etc) do it for the sake of the job. The amount of knowledge and training that goes into becoming a medic would make a few people take a few steps backwards.

We know about all the prescription meds you take (actions, doses, effects, etc), what meds we give (over 20), advanced life support methods, EKG reading and interpretation, ...

I cant list it all. If you really want to know, visit my old website (still up I think) and look at the training medics go through.

start here and move through the pages

 

[JellyBaby]

I'm for one but it won't happen for two reasons: 1) Washington and a huge number of people employed in tax services areas benefit from a complicated tax code; 2) the federal government will need to cut spending to match the fact they'd be stealing less money. The republicans and democrats stand too much too lose politically. Remember, it's about them not us, from their point-of-view.

 

[charrison]

Skoorb,

If the tax system in the US is not fixed, it will only be a matter of time before tax system becomes a hinderence to average earner like it is in Canada.

 

[Linflas]

A flat tax would be fair in the true sense of the word rather than the perverted meaning used by those that see income redistribution as the cure for all the worlds ills.

 

[JellyBaby]

<< those that see income redistribution as the cure for all the worlds ills. >>

You give them more credit than they deserve. Most of them just want our money so they can secure cushy positions for themselves and enjoy the power it brings.

 

[GermyBoy]

How about no tax? The government should make money by doing something of their own, not taking money from others. I don't charge you if you have a job when you come into my workplace, so why do they charge us if we live in their country?

I'll let you all live on my land for free in the future when I get it. We'll have free everything. Robots will do everything for us and we'll all grow money trees.

 

[Cerebus451]

<< Taxing people a higher percentage for earning more money discourages capitalism, it discourages people from trying to make more money. >>


I'm sorry, but I couldn't let this go. So, you are saying that you've earned $99k so far for the year. But, if you earn another $1k it will put you into a higher tax bracket, so now you are going to quit your job just so you don't earn that extra $1k?!? I'm sure Bill Gates sits around all day worrying about his tax bracket and whether or not Microsoft is making too much money.

As far as a flat tax, it cannot work. Think about it. The government has a spending level. If we reduce the amount of taxes the middle/upper class are paying, the missing money has to come from somewhere. Well, who's left to pay it? The poor? Yeah right. If the government could magically cut it's spending in half, then a flat tax might work. Otherwise, it's a no go.

 

[StageLeft]

<<

<< Taxing people a higher percentage for earning more money discourages capitalism, it discourages people from trying to make more money. >>


I'm sorry, but I couldn't let this go. So, you are saying that you've earned $99k so far for the year. But, if you earn another $1k it will put you into a higher tax bracket, so now you are going to quit your job just so you don't earn that extra $1k?!? I'm sure Bill Gates sits around all day worrying about his tax bracket and whether or not Microsoft is making too much money. >>

Some say that high taxes discourage people from making money but I bet it doesn't. It could discourage you from making that money in the US as opposed to another country but it's not like if you're making $50k year you're going to say "I could make $200k with a little more effort but my tax bracket would be higher so screw it."

Also if at $100k vs. $99k you enter a higher tax bracket you still take more money home. Some people seem to believe that a tax bracket is a set percentage on your entire income but it's not. Your first $8k(?) isn't taxed, then the next 20k at a certain rate, the next 20k at a certain rate, etc. so if you pay 30% making $99k and your tax bracket is now 80% when you make $100k you pay 30% on the first $99k and 80% on the next thousand. THis is hwo taxes work. Your taxes on capital gains ARE taxed at the high tax bracket though...so there can sometimes be times when it's worth donating to a charity to tip you just under the next tax rung or whatever, but for most people this isn't really something they should worry about.

I'm basing this on Canada but I'm sure it's the same in the US. Just multiply the example tax percentages by 50X

 

[spyordie007]

<< Taxing people a higher percentage for earning more money discourages capitalism, it discourages people from trying to make more money.

So, you are saying that you've earned $99k so far for the year. But, if you earn another $1k it will put you into a higher tax bracket, so now you are going to quit your job just so you don't earn that extra $1k?!? >>


No, that's not what I'm saying, I said "discourages" not "makes people stop"
And to be honest there are people I know that are close to large increases (bracket creep) and they set up their earnings for the year so they they stay under by altering their finances for the year (taking bonus's in forms other than cash, and here is a big one - buying a new house so the interest will be tax deductable so it offset's their income).

the short answer is that "discourages" does not mean something as extreme as "quit your job"

-Spy

 

[royaldank]

Flat tax percentage and a sales tax seem to be a logical choice. The richer people are, the more stuff they buy. The more they buy, the more taxes they are paying. Make people give 20% to the government no matter what you earn above some pre-determined amount, say $20,000. Then, anything above that is going to be stripped of 20%.

 

[spyordie007]

<< Flat tax percentage and a sales tax seem to be a logical choice. The richer people are, the more stuff they buy. The more they buy, the more taxes they are paying. Make people give 20% to the government no matter what you earn above some pre-determined amount, say $20,000. Then, anything above that is going to be stripped of 20%. >>


This sounds resonable.
The thing I dont like about sales tax is that it discourages people from buying things though (not by allot, but it does make a differance).
But I guess in the end we are talking about finding a "middle ground" that works.

 

[Piano Man]

etech, I've never thought of that. That X amount that is non-taxable seems like a really good way to help keep the poor from getting screwed, which is what a normal flat tax would do.

 

[SuperTool]

I am all for flat tax. I am sick of people with kids getting deduction, while I have to pay for their kids to go to school.
Of course it's not going to change much. If low income wages are taxed at 20%, companies are just going to have to pay more to low income earners pretax. I think as long as the total tax revenue is fixed, the takehome pay will eventually stabilize at the same level as it is now.

 

Flat tax is a bad bad idea.

Now, a nation wide sales tax on everything is the way to go.

You don't tax people on how much they make, you tax on how much they spend!