What Daesh (ISIL/ISIS/IS) Really Wants (source: The Atlantic)

[blastingcap]

I think that's a mischaracterization of people's position. No one (in the media, or of any importance), is saying that all religions are equal, that's certainly not what Obama was saying. What people are saying is that these "fundies" as you call them, don't represent the majority of people of any particular religion and he's right. Most Christians are not fundamentalist nor are most Muslims. Once people understand that then we can make better policies to deal with these "fundies". Surely you'd agree that a policy to rid the world of Islam would look totally different than a policy to rid the world of Islamic extremists who interpret the Koran literally.

It depends on what people we are talking about. You may be talking about different people than I'm talking about. I'm not talking about Obama by the way.

I have offered my prescription for Islam. It would have to be done clandestinely because in many regions anything funded by the USA is viewed with suspicion. But I would fund mandatory female education and hope that that will lead to other changes like what happened in Turkey. Granted Ataturk also did things like ban religious garb in government buildings and shamelessly promoted Western dress and such, but I think the core of it was empowering women.

 

[ivwshane]

Big difference is that the Bible is not taken as the literal word of god; we know there were human editors and translators. The Quran is taken as the literal word of God and thus perfect and believers are encouraged to read it in Arabic. If you go to Islamic congregations and ask "why should I join Islam instead of X or Y or Z" you may well hear that the Quran is the perfect word of God. You may also hear that there was no corruption of meaning unlike other Abrahamic religions. This makes Islamic fundamentalism more magnetic and powerful than for other religions. It also cripples the religion to some extent as it makes reform almost impossible because, well, the Quran is the Quran. It is the word of God. So there. And if you try to argue that the Quran is actually not literally the word of God you may well be shouted down as a heretic.

If that's true then it should be quite easy to stop these people by pointing out the error in their logic:

The Koran is the perfect word of god.
Therefore corruption of it's meaning doesn't exist.
It says there will be a war for the end of days against Rome.
Substituting "Rome" for the "USA", is indeed corrupting the meaning/word of god.
Therefore this war they are waging on us is invalid and anyone saying otherwise who is substituting 'enemies' with their own interpretation are the ones being blasphemous.

 

[blastingcap]

If that's true then it should be quite easy to stop these people by pointing out the error in their logic:

The Koran is the perfect word of god.
Therefore corruption of it's meaning doesn't exist.
It says there will be a war for the end of days against Rome.
Substituting "Rome" for the "USA", is indeed corrupting the meaning/word of god.
Therefore this war they are waging on us is invalid and anyone saying otherwise who is substituting 'enemies' with their own interpretation are the ones being blasphemous.

The prophecy is not in the Quran itself. It's based off hadith. Even if the prophecy of Dabiq/Rome/etc. were in the Quran proper, they would argue self-defense, and the principle of self-defense is well-established in Sharia law. Furthermore, Rome still exists and the USA is a NATO ally; under article V of NATO any attack on Rome (or Istanbul as the article discusses) would attack a NATO country and draw in the allies of Italy and Turkey. One might conclude then that war with the entire NATO block is inevitable so might as well get started.

 

[michal1980]

I think that's a mischaracterization of people's position. No one (in the media, or of any importance), is saying that all religions are equal, that's certainly not what Obama was saying. What people are saying is that these "fundies" as you call them, don't represent the majority of people of any particular religion and he's right. Most Christians are not fundamentalist nor are most Muslims. Once people understand that then we can make better policies to deal with these "fundies". Surely you'd agree that a policy to rid the world of Islam would look totally different than a policy to rid the world of Islamic extremists who interpret the Koran literally.

Obama did. He was comparing and equating ISIS now to Christian crusades. All in an attempt to once again ignore their actions.

 

[realibrad]

I'm the one that created that thread and I did so because their actions made zero sense to me especially if there was some sort of religious reasoning behind it, as they appeared to contradict every religious teaching I've ever read.

What this article explains is that it's based on a very literal interpretation of the Koran and in order to meet their goals they have to create a caliphate and it has to be done a certain way and it has to meet some very specific requirements. When viewed in that context their actions start to make sense (by "sense" I mean their actions don't appear to just be random acts).

I assume that you, like most people including me, have not read the Quran. We have read some parts of it, but I wold bet that 99% of non Muslims have ever read the Quran. What we know of if is manly what we have been told by Muslims around us. Christians are very similar in that regard, as most that I know think Moses was on the ark for 40 days, because they have never read the bible.

I will try to be as non attacking as possible, but what religious texts have you read that contradict what ISIS is doing?

 

[Victorian Gray]

Big difference is that the Bible is not taken as the literal word of god; we know there were human editors and translators. The Quran is taken as the literal word of God and thus perfect and believers are encouraged to read it in Arabic. If you go to Islamic congregations and ask "why should I join Islam instead of X or Y or Z" you may well hear that the Quran is the perfect word of God. You may also hear that there was no corruption of meaning unlike other Abrahamic religions. This makes Islamic fundamentalism more magnetic and powerful than for other religions. It also cripples the religion to some extent as it makes reform almost impossible because, well, the Quran is the Quran. It is the word of God. So there. And if you try to argue that the Quran is actually not literally the word of God you may well be shouted down as a heretic.

"Twenty-eight percent of Americans believe the Bible is the actual word of God and that it should be taken literally."

http://www.gallup.com/poll/170834/three-four-bible-word-god.aspx

 

[Jaskalas]

The world needs men who aren't afraid to salt the earth with the blood of ISIS.

 

[realibrad]

"Twenty-eight percent of Americans believe the Bible is the actual word of God and that it should be taken literally."

http://www.gallup.com/poll/170834/three-four-bible-word-god.aspx

That is scary. What is your point though.

 

[Victorian Gray]

That is scary. What is your point though.

It's a remark on this statement (it was bolded in my original reply): "Big difference is that the Bible is not taken as the literal word of god"

Apparently that statement was incorrect. Haven't bothered to look it up but I suspect that world-wide that % is probably somewhat higher.

 

[Ns1]

well that's a terrifying and incredibly long article.

 

[blastingcap]

It's a remark on this statement (it was bolded in my original reply): "Big difference is that the Bible is not taken as the literal word of god"

Apparently that statement was incorrect. Haven't bothered to look it up but I suspect that world-wide that % is probably somewhat higher.

Unlike the Quran, I am fallible and my wording was sloppy. I should have written that the difference is that belief that the Bible is the unedited word of God is not as fundamental to Christianity as a similar belief in Islam--especially in light of the messy authorship and editorship of the Bible (new and old testament). But in Islam, the Quran is the literal word of God as revealed by the Prophet. It was carefully preserved and scholars believe it is true to the original. "There is no god but God, and Muhammad is his messenger." That's the most fundamental of the five pillars of Islam and from there it's implied that the Quran is God's literal words as revealed by Muhammad. Furthermore the Quran itself says the same. (Self-referential but hey, people actually believe this stuff.)

 

[ivwshane]

I assume that you, like most people including me, have not read the Quran. We have read some parts of it, but I wold bet that 99% of non Muslims have ever read the Quran. What we know of if is manly what we have been told by Muslims around us. Christians are very similar in that regard, as most that I know think Moses was on the ark for 40 days, because they have never read the bible.

I will try to be as non attacking as possible, but what religious texts have you read that contradict what ISIS is doing?

I've read absolutely nothing and I'm at the mercy of those that claim to have very good knowledge and understanding of the book.

Religious people are like right wingers, facts that contradict their view and hypocrisy committed by them isn't going to change anything, their belief is so strong that they can rationalize/justify anything. My concern is how people (mainly the US) deals with them and my desire for us not to play into their hand.

 

[realibrad]

It's a remark on this statement (it was bolded in my original reply): "Big difference is that the Bible is not taken as the literal word of god"

Apparently that statement was incorrect. Haven't bothered to look it up but I suspect that world-wide that % is probably somewhat higher.

Well then he would be incorrect in that broad statement. That being said, this is worse...

s previously noted, belief in one God and the Prophet Muhammad is nearly universal among Muslims in most countries surveyed. Although the survey asked only respondents in sub-Saharan Africa whether they consider the Quran to be the word of God, the findings in that region indicate broad assent.5 Across most of the African nations surveyed, more than nine-in-ten Muslims say the Quran is the word of God, and solid majorities say it should be taken literally, word for word. Only in two countries in the region – Guinea Bissau (59%) and the Democratic Republic of the Congo (54%) – do smaller percentages think the Quran should be read literally. The results in those two countries are similar to the United States, where 86% of Muslims said in a 2007 survey that the Quran was the word of God, including 50% who said it should be read literally, word for word.

http://www.pewforum.org/2012/08/09/the-worlds-muslims-unity-and-diversity-executive-summary/

The Qur'an is explicitly supposed to be the word of god.

But, that is not really the problem. You can hash that out though if you wish. The point is there are a lot of Muslims that believe in the literal teaching of the Qur'an at a greater rate than other religions. With ISIS hovering around 40k fighters, and over 100k supporters that could partly join in the fighting, there seems to be more than a few extremists.

I remember you calling me a bigot during the Sam Harris thing. You never really gave any counter points though, just accusations about my character. Seems like a lot more than just a few bad apples, and it does not seem like it either or. There seems to be an continuum from moderate to extreme.

 

[realibrad]

I've read absolutely nothing and I'm at the mercy of those that claim to have very good knowledge and understanding of the book.

Religious people are like right wingers, facts that contradict their view and hypocrisy committed by them isn't going to change anything, their belief is so strong that they can rationalize/justify anything. My concern is how people (mainly the US) deals with them and my desire for us not to play into their hand.

It used to be for a very long time, that if you did not like a groups beliefs, you would go to war. If you won, you wiped them out and that belief pretty much stopped. For good reason, we stopped that horrific practice. The problem now though is that bad ideas tend to be isolated in modern societies.

There are a lot of modern things that would allow for ISIS to not kill itself off. If left to themselves, they would either stagnate, or lash out as they became irrelevant.

 

[ivwshane]

The prophecy is not in the Quran itself. It's based off hadith. Even if the prophecy of Dabiq/Rome/etc. were in the Quran proper, they would argue self-defense, and the principle of self-defense is well-established in Sharia law. Furthermore, Rome still exists and the USA is a NATO ally; under article V of NATO any attack on Rome (or Istanbul as the article discusses) would attack a NATO country and draw in the allies of Italy and Turkey. One might conclude then that war with the entire NATO block is inevitable so might as well get started.

They can argue and justify whatever they want but that doesn't change the fact that they are still interpreting the text. If a religions major tenent is that their text is accurate and un compromised then any changing of the words used in the book are a direct violation of their religion. If god said Rome, then god meant Rome, period!

Now I assume you and the author of this article are correct in that these fundies do indeed believe that the Koran is un compromised and literal.

 

[ivwshane]

It used to be for a very long time, that if you did not like a groups beliefs, you would go to war. If you won, you wiped them out and that belief pretty much stopped. For good reason, we stopped that horrific practice. The problem now though is that bad ideas tend to be isolated in modern societies.

There are a lot of modern things that would allow for ISIS to not kill itself off. If left to themselves, they would either stagnate, or lash out as they became irrelevant.

True which is why I believe you can't fight an ideology like this with weapons. However, the reason, as explained by the author, people are attracted to ISIS because they believe that ISIS has or will create a caliphate, invalidate the legitimacy of that claim and people will stop being attracted to them (again, according to the author).

 

[Victorian Gray]

Well then he would be incorrect in that broad statement. That being said, this is worse...



http://www.pewforum.org/2012/08/09/the-worlds-muslims-unity-and-diversity-executive-summary/

The Qur'an is explicitly supposed to be the word of god.

But, that is not really the problem. You can hash that out though if you wish. The point is there are a lot of Muslims that believe in the literal teaching of the Qur'an at a greater rate than other religions. With ISIS hovering around 40k fighters, and over 100k supporters that could partly join in the fighting, there seems to be more than a few extremists.

I remember you calling me a bigot during the Sam Harris thing. You never really gave any counter points though, just accusations about my character. Seems like a lot more than just a few bad apples, and it does not seem like it either or. There seems to be an continuum from moderate to extreme.

Ok, just googled him and he appears to be an atheist. I vaguely have a memory of a thread about him and Bill Maher being dicks about Islam but I'm not going to try and find an reread the thread so if you have an issue with something I said you'll have to tell me what it was.

As for your comments on Islam, believe what you will. I'm getting to the point where I find it hard to give a damn. Far as I'm concerned all belief in god/gods at best verges on delusional.

 

[Fern]

-snip-
It is now mainstream to ignore old testament stuff for Christians. Somehow, it needs to be mainstream to do the same in Islam.

Umm. Christianity has pretty much always "ignore(d) old testament stuff" since Christ himself essentially taught that.

It is the Jews who have evolved. However, it was explained to me by someone here claiming to be Jewish that the Old Testament Laws are not practiced because Levite Judges are required. The tribe of Levi is one of the lost tribes, so there are no Levite judges. Hence, those laws cannot be enforced.

Fern

 

[Fern]

That is a really long article to say that he thinks they are a genuine religious movement vs some people using religion to grab power (although I don't actually see him present evidence other than testimonials from recruiters which would be playing the religious angle regardless).
-snip-

I read European news sites (mostly British) and similar articles cite publications by ISIS as proof. Just saw one such article today and the name of the ISIS publication was mentioned. If I have time and get motivated maybe I can find that article and link it. Nobody should hold their breath though.

Fern

 

[Omar F1]

The world needs men who aren't afraid to salt the earth with the blood of ISIS.

Totally agree here, but it shouldn't be carried by any group rather than us, the coward nations of Arab.

The reality is that the Islamic State is Islamic. Very Islamic. Yes, it has attracted psychopaths and adventure seekers, drawn largely from the disaffected populations of the Middle East and Europe. But the religion preached by its most ardent followers derives from coherent and even learned interpretations of Islam.

I stopped reading after this, clearly another rubbish worthless article about how is Islam/Quran being responsible for those thugs, coming from somebody who is clearly have no idea about early Islamic history.

You guys still don't get it.

 

[Fern]

I think in some ways, or to some extent, these articles discussing ISIS and it's objective (religious war) are aimed at the Obama admin who, even as I type this, are trying to claim ISIS is non-religious or non-Islamic.

Equally as bad is the admin's claim that ISIS is not an existential threat.

I believe these two positions of the Obama admin alarm our European friends. I see a lot of concern in the Euro media. Recently saw an article where ISIS's plans for Libya were discussed. ISIS is moving into Libya to provide them an easy route into Southern Europe. It's only about a 300 mile boat trip from Libya to Italy's shore. Italy already gets about 150,000 - 200,000 refugees from Libya annually. ISIS plans to mix in with the refugees and reform in Rome and Paris etc to attack.

Meanwhile, our govt over here is busy warning us about roaming hordes of Medieval Christians.

Fern

 

[Ns1]

I stopped reading after this, clearly another rubbish worthless article about how is Islam/Quran being responsible for those thugs, coming from somebody who is clearly have no idea about early Islamic history.

You guys still don't get it.

If there is a better way to refute an article than to stop reading it, I don't know what it is.

 

[nickqt]

Umm. Christianity has pretty much always "ignore(d) old testament stuff" since Christ himself essentially taught that.

It is the Jews who have evolved. However, it was explained to me by someone here claiming to be Jewish that the Old Testament Laws are not practiced because Levite Judges are required. The tribe of Levi is one of the lost tribes, so there are no Levite judges. Hence, those laws cannot be enforced.

Fern

Jesus didn't teach to ignore the old testament.

Christ, he actually said: ""Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them."

Law and Prophets = Old Testament

http://biblehub.com/matthew/5-17.htm

The thing about Christ and the Old Testament is that Christ was a hippy socialist compared to the Old Testament. But, because early Christians were simply a small sect of Jews who believed that Jesus was the last prophet/God, they had to make sure to keep the Old Testament teachings in there somewhere. Otherwise they weren't good Jews.

Which is why it's very unlikely you'll find a New Testament without an Old Testament coming directly before it. It's also why the Christian Fundies who would love to crucify non-believers,except for the fact that they'd get arrested, love quoting Leviticus and other disgusting parts of the Old Testament. Anyone up for bashing babies against some rocks? It's a valid punishment for enemies of Jehovah.

Luckily for us westerners who aren't big into mythology, we've secularized society enough that we tolerate their mythology as long as they don't get too uppity. Although they think and posit that there is a war on Christianity because some of us say Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas. Because unfettered delusions can be dangerous, depending on the power of the delusional.

 

[Jaskalas]

True which is why I believe you can't fight an ideology like this with weapons.

What is it I wonder, that drives you to oppose the obvious solution to ISIS?

If it's so called empathy, how accurate is that really, when you use it to allow such evil to exist? It will cost lives to right this wrong, but doing so would be a kindness to the world. To all their future victims that they will capture and torture. We can prevent that.

Salt the earth with the blood of ISIS and save your fellow man from the horrors of a future where those !@#$ still hold territory. We don't even have to enter their cities, just blockade them and let the locals do the rest.

If the militia cannot move its forces, it cannot function. We would kill many, but they are our enemy. The enemy of all mankind. The world needs to step up and see this done.
There is DEFINITELY a military solution here.

The future belongs to those who are willing to act. Do not let it be them.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Fundamentalists ruin literally everything.