What brought down WTC7

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Number1

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2006
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Originally posted by: kylebisme
Originally posted by: DrPizza
I teach physics. I am a calculus professor. I majored in ceramic engineering (materials engineering) at Alfred University - the #1 school in the world for ceramic engineering at the time. Before you dismiss that engineering field as being irrelevant, consider that it requires extensive knowledge about the mechanics of materials, loads, etc. Subsequent to that, I decided to return to school to major in applied mathematics. I graduated summa cum laude & was ranked #1 in my university during my junior year. My conceptual understanding of physics is exceptional. Please, make with the math.
As I noted previously, I already have the math posted and timestamped elsewhere on the net under this same username, and I have promised to present it just as soon as someone makes a mathematical argument which demonstrates some semblance of understanding of the physics involved. Absent that, presenting the math would be pointless, and while credentials you list suggest you have been exposed to the necessary understanding, as long as you insist on refuting my position verbally rather than mathematically, I'm going to stick to responding in kind.


The only reason you're not presenting this info is because you don't have it. Quit playing games with us.

Anyway, try your suggestion with multiple cans spaced apart from each other and with a board on top of them to stand on. Then try that again with a few additional stacks of the same setup on on top of each other. Then try gluing those cans to the boards so they have lateral support. Then try to get all that to come down with a period of free fall by lighting a fire in it. You could put it all in a blast furnace for that matter, you still aren't going to get free fall.

Lets assume each can can support the weight of a man let say 200 pounds and we build your structure 4 level high with 4 cans on each level. The structure should be able to support about 800 pounds. Now eat up one of the cans until it fails, your structure will lean to one side and crumble at free fall speed. Why? because once the collapse starts, the cans are out of alignment and provide negligible support. This is comparable to the fact that a straw can be strong standing on its head but loses all strength once its bent.

This has been explained to you several times in this thread.



 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
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Originally posted by: shira
Oh, gee willickers. Do you mean THIS "math":
Wow, you couldn't make a mathematical argument on your own so you had to go digging to find mine instead, even though I had promised to present it once someone else demonstrated the ability to comprehend such math. I find it disturbing that you apparently see no shame in such mindless argumentation.

Originally posted by: shira
Looks like first-week high-school physics to me, and it is absurd.
Rather, it's absurd to believe anything beyond what anyone who took high-school physics surely had the opportunity to learn will disprove what I demonstrated there. However, as you obviously don't understand what I demonstrated, and are overtly hostile to the logical conclusion it suggests, I do understand why you would make such an absurd argument.

Originally posted by: shira
As is extremely well known, and as Dr Pizza reiterated earlier in this thread, the "-Fr" term Kyle is using to represent the "resistive force" of pillars and such is NEGLIGIBLE in a dynamic-load situation. With a huge, moving mass, the pillars would be so many matchsticks, and the difference between free-fall and (free-fall - .000000001) would be indistinguishable.
I know this, and that is exactly what happened in what NIST calls "stage 3" of the fall in their video analysis, which I linked to in the OP. However, that huge mass didn't get to build achieve the acceleration needed to crush all that structure after the 105 foot of free fall without some yet to be identified force(s) clearing a 105 foot path.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
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Originally posted by: shira

Looks like first-week high-school physics to me, and it is absurd. As is extremely well known, and as Dr Pizza reiterated earlier in this thread, the "-Fr" term Kyle is using to represent the "resistive force" of pillars and such is NEGLIGIBLE in a dynamic-load situation. With a huge, moving mass, the pillars would be so many matchsticks, and the difference between free-fall and (free-fall - .000000001) would be indistinguishable.

Edit: Let me make this really simple: The "mg" term being used in the equations above is enormous - DWARFING Fr in a dynamic load situation - and overwhelms "Fr" almost instantly. Fr then goes to 0 (virtually instantly) as the pillars collapse (Dr Pizza's aluminum can and karate-chopped brick analogies), and the dynamic load is then completely unopposed. Voila! Instantaneous free fall.

That seems to be the NIST hypothesis all right.
Is there any other way to get the building to Voila itself to the ground? Another Hypothesis?
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
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Originally posted by: LunarRay
Disproving NIST may not be possible...

At the moment looking at the SIM of WTC 7 they developed that purports to show how WTC 7 fell and why and then looking at video of the fall there is no way they are similar. NIST SIM
NIST disproved themselves when they admitted and documented the period of free fall, as the simulations they made before they admitted as much show no possibility for it. Granted, neither could any other simulation of fire induced collapse show free fall, and the videos of WTC7 would show it regardless of if NIST ever admitted as much. The problem is simply one of getting people to come to terms with such facts, and so many have an extreme emotional aversion to doing anything of the sort.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: BeauJangles
Originally posted by: kylebisme
Originally posted by: DLeRium
HOW THE HELL DO YOU BRING IN THERMITE... we're talking TONS?
You are talking tons because you are listening to falsers. We are talking about thermite compounds specifically engineered to have a very high mass to force ratio, not your average sparkler dust. Besides, even bog-standard thermite is nasty stuff.

Why use a compound that is primarily used to either fuse or cut steel to take down a skyscraper when it has never been done before and there are far, far better options out there?

They must have run out of hacksaw blades... or Ace was closed on that Tuesday?

 

Nemesis 1

Lifer
Dec 30, 2006
11,366
2
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The karate thing is false as are many things stated by our teacher.

Karate relies on technic not pure power. I bigger stronger man appling great force without technic won't break those blocks only his hand. LOL . 2 things wrong with teachers theory . Inner core and outer floors. I can get pics of outer floor collaspe but core still standing . Rust or bad steal . Why aren't inspectors being held for manslaughter . They failed to do job why? Same in the bridge collaaspe inspectors were neglagent yet NO manslaughter charges. Empire state building still standing as are many other high rise buildings. I have seen core of empire state building for age of building the core beams look great fantastic. If bad steal was used why no manslaughter charges on who ever signed off on project .
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
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Originally posted by: BeauJangles
Originally posted by: kylebisme
You are talking tons because you are listening to falsers. We are talking about thermite compounds specifically engineered to have a very high mass to force ratio, not your average sparkler dust. Besides, even bog-standard thermite is nasty stuff.

Why use a compound that is primarily used to either fuse or cut steel to take down a skyscraper when it has never been done before and there are far, far better options out there?
What better options for compounds to covertly take down buildings, to the point of many still believing they were gravitationally induced collapses nearly a decade later, are you alluding to specifically? Or were you just not thinking your argument through, like the one about claiming some few published works speak for 95% of the structural engineers from around the world?
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
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Originally posted by: kylebisme
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Disproving NIST may not be possible...

At the moment looking at the SIM of WTC 7 they developed that purports to show how WTC 7 fell and why and then looking at video of the fall there is no way they are similar. NIST SIM
NIST disproved themselves when they admitted and documented the period of free fall, as the simulations they made before they admitted as much show no possibility for it. Granted, neither could any other simulation of fire induced collapse show free fall, and the videos of WTC7 would show it regardless of if NIST ever admitted as much. The problem is simply one of getting people to come to terms with such facts, and so many have an extreme emotional aversion to doing anything of the sort.

NIST is not happy, I don't think, with their WTC 7 analyis. Engineers like stuff neat and proper. They can't get the Sim to generate what is seen on video. I'd not have published that Sim. I always think in terms of trying to say one thing and then have someone cross examine it. 'There! How about that Mr. Fung?'

 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
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Originally posted by: Number1
Originally posted by: kylebisme
Anyway, try your suggestion with multiple cans spaced apart from each other and with a board on top of them to stand on. Then try that again with a few additional stacks of the same setup on on top of each other. Then try gluing those cans to the boards so they have lateral support. Then try to get all that to come down with a period of free fall by lighting a fire in it. You could put it all in a blast furnace for that matter, you still aren't going to get free fall.
Lets assume each can can support the weight of a man let say 200 pounds and we build your structure 4 level high with 4 cans on each level. The structure should be able to support about 800 pounds. Now eat up one of the cans until it fails, your structure will lean to one side and crumble at free fall speed.
Rather, it will sag a bit towards that corner as the can heats up, as the three other cans take on more of the load, still being able to hold considerably more weight than they are left to carry. So lets take your example and put 800 pounds is on top of it instead, as the one can is heated up the others on that same level are forced to take more load than they can, and hence crumple under the weight, the resistance the cans provide while doing so keeping the rate of acceleration below that of free fall, and that redistribution of weight likely crumpling some of the structure elsewhere. However, nothing of the sort would result in a pile of rubble at the bottom like what became of WTC7.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
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Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
The karate thing is false as are many things stated by our teacher.

Karate relies on technic not pure power. I bigger stronger man appling great force without technic won't break those blocks only his hand. LOL . 2 things wrong with teachers theory . Inner core and outer floors.
He was taking in regard to WTC7, but yeah it was a poor analogy regardless. That said, I'd actually considered making a video composite showing video of the towers coming down by some anthropomorphication of God karate chopping them, sarcastically claiming the image of God was relived by special video enhancement, as that makes for as plausible an explanation as the official one.

:p
 

Nemesis 1

Lifer
Dec 30, 2006
11,366
2
0
Originally posted by: kylebisme
Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
The karate thing is false as are many things stated by our teacher.

Karate relies on technic not pure power. I bigger stronger man appling great force without technic won't break those blocks only his hand. LOL . 2 things wrong with teachers theory . Inner core and outer floors.
He was taking in regard to WTC7, but yeah it was a poor analogy regardless. That said, I'd actually considered making a video composite showing video of the towers coming down by some anthropomorphication of God karate chopping them, sarcastically claiming the image of God was relived by special video enhancement, as that makes for as plausible an explanation as the official one.

:p

Have you not seen all the utube stuff? Why use GOD as example . When there are videos of demonic faces in the towers smoke . LOL They seemed to be freed some way. LOL. No wonder indians sold the land for 24 bucks and handful of beads. Loks like indians new what they were doing on that sell job .

 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Ok kiddies, before we all put our heads down on the desk we have to finish our milk and cookies.. and as an added treat we'll read today's NIST Q&A and see who gets the bonus cookie.

"Why didn't the investigators look at actual steel samples from WTC 7?
Steel samples were removed from the site before the NIST investigation began. In the immediate aftermath of Sept. 11, debris was removed rapidly from the site to aid in recovery efforts and facilitate emergency responders? efforts to work around the site. Once it was removed from the scene, the steel from WTC 7 could not be clearly identified. Unlike the pieces of steel from WTC 1 and WTC 2, which were painted red and contained distinguishing markings, WTC 7 steel did not contain such identifying characteristics."

I have three dogs. A big all black pit bull/lab mix and two Silky Terriers. Silkies are like 15 lbs. I always keep their collars on cuz after reading the above I'm afraid if I take off my Pit Bull's one I'll not know which is which.

 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
13,918
20
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Originally posted by: munky
Originally posted by: jonks
You still haven't addressed my two last posts about the eyewitnesses. The reason I didn't address your points is because they are irrelevent until you can refute the threshold question raised by the eyewitnesses. All evidence is not equal. Your layman opinion about the minutae of a crash site doesn't stand against eyewitness testimony of the crash itself from dozens of verified sources.

So says you... you have no proof that your witness testimony is more valid than the one I mentioned. And don't bother replying to my posts with diversions.

I've addressed your WTC eyewitness testimony at least twice already despite you not addressing mine. Your eyewitnesses (earwitnesses) heard noises. Ok, I believe them. We don't know what those noises were. You choose to believe those noises were explosions. I say they are of unknown origin. Call it a stalemate if you like.

You have not yet provided even one alternative to explain the dozens and dozens of people who saw unambiguiously, a jet plane fly low and fast towards and ultimately into a fireball as it struck the pentagon. Address this or go away.

Imagine this is a court case and I call 50 people to the stand who each testify to seeing the plane crash into the pentagon. You have no cross examination for any of them, but instead put on a case claiming "there isn't enough wreckage." Which way do you expect a reasonable juror to lean on the events of the day?

Explain the eyewitness testimony. Give ONE explanation. If you think they are ALL lying, say that so we know where you stand.
 

BeauJangles

Lifer
Aug 26, 2001
13,941
1
0
Originally posted by: kylebisme
Originally posted by: BeauJangles
Originally posted by: kylebisme
You are talking tons because you are listening to falsers. We are talking about thermite compounds specifically engineered to have a very high mass to force ratio, not your average sparkler dust. Besides, even bog-standard thermite is nasty stuff.

Why use a compound that is primarily used to either fuse or cut steel to take down a skyscraper when it has never been done before and there are far, far better options out there?
What better options for compounds to covertly take down buildings, to the point of many still believing they were gravitationally induced collapses nearly a decade later, are you alluding to specifically? Or were you just not thinking your argument though, like the one about claiming some few published works speak for 95% of the structural engineers from around the world?

Sharp tongue you have, too bad you again completely deflect the point I was trying to make.

No building has ever been brought down in a controlled demolition using thermite / thermate. It hasn't happened. Buildings are usually brought down with high explosives.

So, my question is pretty simple. Why would the people plotting the greatest cover-up in the world risk using a substance that's NEVER been used in a demolition? Why would they not go with the hundreds of other reliable options?

Let me give you a small hint -- there were no traces of any other explosive found at ground zero so the conspiracy theorists put in thermite, the only even vaguely destructive substance that would fit the profile of samples taken from ground zero. This was done with no thought nor any foresight and now conspiracy folks have been backed into an awkward corner. Considering the byproducts of a thermite reaction are pretty common elements found in any skyscraper, thermite was your only choice.

Thermite isn't really a good choice for blowing up a building. It pretty much needs to remain in direct contact with steel for a prolonged period of time to actually melt it. Due to the structure of WTC 1 and 2, it would have required thousands of pounds of this shit to bring it down.

It was picked out of necessity. You needed something that could theoretically take down a building and thermite was the only 'explosive' that fit the bill.

Until you address any of the questions I've raised. Maybe you missed it. Here ya go:

Name calling doesn't change the fact that you cannot address any of the points I raised in my previous post. Nope, instead you've conveniently skirted every single issue I raised, failed to address any of the contextual points and continue to harp on the same old tired story about how you're right and every other person in the world is wrong.

You demand accountability, you demand that we take off our blinders, you demand that this issue be reinvestigation, yet the same standard you are trying to force on us is the one you are continually ignoring yourself.

The NIST didn't get tunnel vision. They considered the hypothesis you are so fervently defending. They actually devoted time, money, and resources to investigating it both in as a possibility in terms of physics and a possibility in terms of context. In both cases they found it highly unlikely, if not impossible.

You've spent hundreds of posts now desperately trying to convince us that your evidence is foolproof. Foolproof evidence doesn't take hundreds of posts. There are a lot of very smart people here who have raised points you fail to address and, instead of addressing them you just continually shout, "What points? I've addressed everything!" over and over again in hopes that it comes true.

Venix actually had a buddy of his make a phone call to ask some pretty basic questions. You are unhappy with the results. What do we get?
In your defence; maybe your friend's cousin didn't ask the right question, or asked someone who wasn't in a position to give him the right answer.
Grow up. It isn't like he was asking a complicated question about quantum physics. Maybe if this was the only shred of evidence we had, you might be right to question it, but it isn't. It's just one more fact in a now-mountainous pile of evidence that is sitting out there against your beliefs.

You know, it really makes me laugh sometimes when pro-911-conspiracy-believers proclaim that all they want is transparency from the government. Not only have two different branches of the government released reports explaining their theory on what happened, but they've made those reports publicly available. They aren't hiding their evidence behind some metaphorical wall, they've left it all out in the open and they've even had the courtesy to write it in a way that is fairly comprehensible to the average person.

What transparency do we have from the conspiracy folks? We can't even get one straight story out of any of you about what happened that day. No, instead it's "nano-thermite" this and "what about these cracks in the sidewalk 18 miles from ground zero" that. I know, I know, you're going to snap back at me about how you never said any of that. You didn't, but your fellow conspiracy people did.

The story you are choosing to support is exactly the opposite of what you demand from the government. It's a story that shape-shifts. It morphs itself around flaws. It ignores evidence. Worst of all, it is never fully presented. Instead we're lead on a wild goose-chase that jumps from the physics of WTC 7 to the Pentagon, to the explosive properties of thermite, to Larry Silverstein, to FEMA, to the President, and all the way back to the Twin Towers.

That's the beauty of a conspiracy. If the believers simply shout, "I want to believe" loud enough, they'll find a way to jump through all sorts of hoops to get there. Case in point is Venix's post. Or Dr. Pizza's. Or TLC's. Or mine.

Care to even respond to a single thing in there? Care to outline a real theory? Or are we just going to go around poking holes everywhere we can find them and jamming a conspiracy into even the smallest cracks we can find?
 

Delita

Senior member
Jan 12, 2006
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Originally posted by: kylebisme
Originally posted by: shira
Oh, gee willickers. Do you mean THIS "math":
Wow, you couldn't make a mathematical argument on your own so you had to go digging to find mine instead, even though I had promised to present it once someone else demonstrated the ability to comprehend such math. I find it disturbing that you apparently see no shame in such mindless argumentation.

Originally posted by: shira
Looks like first-week high-school physics to me, and it is absurd.
Rather, it's absurd to believe anything beyond what anyone who took high-school physics surely had the opportunity to learn will disprove what I demonstrated there. However, as you obviously don't understand what I demonstrated, and are overtly hostile to the logical conclusion it suggests, I do understand why you would make such an absurd argument.

Originally posted by: shira
As is extremely well known, and as Dr Pizza reiterated earlier in this thread, the "-Fr" term Kyle is using to represent the "resistive force" of pillars and such is NEGLIGIBLE in a dynamic-load situation. With a huge, moving mass, the pillars would be so many matchsticks, and the difference between free-fall and (free-fall - .000000001) would be indistinguishable.
I know this, and that is exactly what happened in what NIST calls "stage 3" of the fall in their video analysis, which I linked to in the OP. However, that huge mass didn't get to build achieve the acceleration needed to crush all that structure after the 105 foot of free fall without some yet to be identified force(s) clearing a 105 foot path.

Ok so you say you wont post your "math" because you posted it somewhere else under the same name and no one demonstrated that they could understand you killer math skillz. Then someone demonstrates that they have excellent math knowledge and someone else posts your math and so you resort in ad hominem attacks and still refuse to talk about your "math."

Lock this shit up and ban this fucking idiot.
 

Number1

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2006
7,881
549
126
Originally posted by: kylebisme
Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
The karate thing is false as are many things stated by our teacher.

Karate relies on technic not pure power. I bigger stronger man appling great force without technic won't break those blocks only his hand. LOL . 2 things wrong with teachers theory . Inner core and outer floors.
He was taking in regard to WTC7, but yeah it was a poor analogy regardless. That said, I'd actually considered making a video composite showing video of the towers coming down by some anthropomorphication of God karate chopping them, sarcastically claiming the image of God was relived by special video enhancement, as that makes for as plausible an explanation as the official one.

:p

You're so full of yourself your starting to sound like those preachers on TV who believe man coexisted with dinosaur and make fun of the evolution theory.

Dinosaur and the Bible
Skip to the 54 sec and watch this buffoon start his "seminar" and discards everything that science knows about prehistoric animals and replaces it with faith based nonsense.

 

Number1

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2006
7,881
549
126
Originally posted by: kylebisme
Originally posted by: shira
Oh, gee willickers. Do you mean THIS "math":
Wow, you couldn't make a mathematical argument on your own so you had to go digging to find mine instead, even though I had promised to present it once someone else demonstrated the ability to comprehend such math. I find it disturbing that you apparently see no shame in such mindless argumentation.

That is your math?

OMG

You mean to tell us that your simple formula telling us that the force pushing down on the building is equal to the force pushing down minus the force pushing up?

Wow, it's so hard to understand...:LOL

The way you were talking I was expecting pages of mathematical formulas with actual numbers or estimation of weights, velocity, acceleration, analysis of the composition of the structure and on and on.

NO WONDER YOU WERE RELUCTANT TO SHOW US YOUR "MATH"

You're a joke Kyle, but not in the funny sense.
 

Nemesis 1

Lifer
Dec 30, 2006
11,366
2
0
Originally posted by: Number1
Originally posted by: kylebisme
Originally posted by: Nemesis 1
The karate thing is false as are many things stated by our teacher.

Karate relies on technic not pure power. I bigger stronger man appling great force without technic won't break those blocks only his hand. LOL . 2 things wrong with teachers theory . Inner core and outer floors.
He was taking in regard to WTC7, but yeah it was a poor analogy regardless. That said, I'd actually considered making a video composite showing video of the towers coming down by some anthropomorphication of God karate chopping them, sarcastically claiming the image of God was relived by special video enhancement, as that makes for as plausible an explanation as the official one.

:p

You're so full of yourself your starting to sound like those preachers on TV who believe man coexisted with dinosaur and make fun of the evolution theory.

Dinosaur and the Bible
Skip to the 54 sec and watch this buffoon start his "seminar" and discards everything that science knows about prehistoric animals and replaces it with faith based nonsense.

Your so funny . Man doesn't KNOW what happened 3,600 years ago . Or its not printed in public . Yet your telling us about what happened in era. By the way ERa is a bible term meaning 1 million years . Ya listen to to many lies . eons era all part of scripture meaning millions of years . Ignorance is somethimes OK . But in your case it a weapon of self destruction .

 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
126
Originally posted by: Number1
Originally posted by: TastesLikeChicken
lol at kyle getting thoroughly destroyed at JREF. No surprise that the folks there don't buy into his baloney either.

He could not fool the people at that other forum so he had to come here and try again.
He thinks we're idiots obviously.

It's dishonest.
It's ludicrous.

Number1 your post is Gold!!
It`s amazing that other forums would also be tolerant of Kyle`s mis-guided opinion.....ahhh...this is America...lol
hahahaaa...of course we all knew that Kyle was jumping back and forth between other forums slinging his smelly stuff where ever he thought people would listen...rofl..hahahaaaaaaa
 
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