Sheik Yerbouti
Lifer
- Feb 16, 2005
- 14,068
- 5,417
- 136
After seeing the international community at work in the UN security council, your "help" is not desired. The corruption within the food for oil program led to 10-15000k+ Iraqis dying every month during sanctions designed to prevent that from happening. What was gained, $, what was given, protection for Saddam.
Nice work, we'll take it from here. We had to step in and stop what was happening in the Balklands. The accords that were signed in Dayton, Oh led to the end of that conflict, which the "international" community was doing sqaut about handling.
While we are busy in Iraq/Afghanistan and you are still on your high horses, take care of Darfur. Look forward to you guys doing nothing there real soon......
Well, Palehorse, why don't you explain why you say the concern for Iraqis' well-being, to prevent more massive violence than is now occuring, is a reason you agree with as to why we should stay in Iraq - you attack others' lack of concern for Iraqis - and yet you throw away the issue of Darfur with a phrase arguing that doing the 'right thing' in Iraq is good, but also doing it in Darfur is bad. You contradict your own alleged moral position.
The sad thing is, we can argue about intellectual consistency all we like, but the policies are driven by politics that have little logic to them at the voter level.
At higher levels, they have a logic, but are not the warm and fuzzy concerns about the Iraqis that Palehorse tries to ride for political capital.
For example, one reason for us to stay in Iraq is simply the fact that Bush has so much political capital invested. When we leave, it becomes 'we lost', not 'we will win later'.
Another foolish reason is the simple psychological issue that drives gamblers to bet again because they lost so much the last bet, the inability to let our losses be 'pointless'. As long as the war continues, the soldiers killed were part of a cause that still has the possibility of doing something to make their sacrifice for a reason, while if we just leave, then their losses did not have the amount of reason that we like to feel comfortable.
This is why war tends to spiral on until the pain forces its end, just as with the gambling addict, and is followed by a period of amnesia not to think about the 'pointless' losses.
Then, finally, the nation can come to grips with the war years later by inventing myths around it that teach the wrong lessons, oens that encourage the next war.
For example, with Viet Nam, that the loss was because of a lack of determination by Americans, so next time, Americans need to avoid ending the war even longer.
palehorse
Lifer
- Dec 21, 2005
- 11,521
- 0
- 76
do not put words in my mouth. I'd LOVE to see China, Russia, Germany, or *gasp*, France, take care of the problem in Darfur.
It would require a military draft for the US to assist in Iraq and Darfur simultaneously. As I am mostly against a draft, and we're already in Iraq, I don't think we should bite off another humanitarian mission at the moment.
But, once again, dont put words in my mouth. I am very empathetic to those who are suffering in Darfur. My comment about getting involved in another civil war was a sarcastic response to the hypocrites who say that helping Darfur would be OK, but helping Iraq is not. That doesnt make sense on any level... especially given the strategic importance of Iraq vs. that of Darfur. (sorry, but that's reality. we have to choose the situation that best benefits the US and the rest of the world).
You'd be surprised how warm and fuzzy it DOES make soldiers feel to be a part of something very important to the Iraqi people. At our level, that's really all that matters! (see above for the strategic benefits of choosing to help Iraq vs. Darfur - but I think you already know them!)
That is only true of the half-fought wars since WWII. Prior to that, winning was the objective, and we did everything we could to make that happen! Ever since, politicians, the media, and anti-war groups have prevented us from fighting the wars as they should have been fought - to victory. The concepts of tenacity and brutality have also been lost, so it may be true that we never win another war...
Or perhaps, *gasp*, remain "determined" to win at all costs... what a concept!
What a fool is closer to the truth. Your only goal is to prolong this war into the next Presidency so he inherits the mess and then you'll be blaming him for Bush's (and your own) stupidity.
blackangst1
Lifer
- Feb 23, 2005
- 22,902
- 2,359
- 126
Something I've always wondered and expressed...why blame Bush? Why not direct your rage to the fekkers that gave him the money and the authority to invade? I dont get it. He requested, they gave it to him. Blind hatred FTW!
You say you blame Bush, but for what? Intentionally leading us to invade a country on trumped up intelligence? Pissing off the UN and most of the world by "going it alone"? Not having enough troops to do it right? Not having a plan except "shock and awe"? Lying about how many trained Iraqi troops/police we had prior to the last election? Sorry but no, it seems to me your a little late to the party to have ANY credibility, especially since you swallowed up everything the NeoCons have told you hook, line, and sinker.
All you are doing is lining your ducks in a row so in the future when the INEVITABLE finally happens you can whine about it and say "I told you so" instead of admitting to the truth, and the truth is we don't have the troops to pull it off (can you say 'stop loss') or the desire to stay that long and spend that much money.
We need to set goals and put a timeline on those goals, a timeline with consequences (staged withdrawl) if the Iraqis don't step up to the plate and take over the bulk of their own defense.
Yeah, right. They authorized him to write the check if needed, the "decider" decided to write it.
blackangst1
Lifer
- Feb 23, 2005
- 22,902
- 2,359
- 126
The UN security council was protecting Saddam, they were corrupted, there was no point in bothering to ask permission.
Not having a plan except "shock and awe"?
We have a winner, GWB's epic failure for all time.
- Aug 23, 2003
- 25,375
- 142
- 116
That's a common misconception about our war in Iraq.Originally posted by: palehorse74
I've readily given up several freedoms to fight for yours.
The American people have lost more freedoms than we've gained.
Progress sure smells a lot like death & destruction, but what do I know...
The progress
More progress
Bomb kills 25 in Shiite area of Baghdad By HAMID AHMED, Associated Press Writer , 2 hours, 10 minutes ago, 7/26/07.
BAGHDAD - A parked car bomb exploded near a market in a predominantly Shiite area of Baghdad on Thursday, killing at least 25 people and wounding 74, police said.
The U.S. military also said five American troops had died in fighting this week ? four northeast of the capital and one in Baghdad.
Smoke billowed into the sky and fires burned on the ground after the thunderous explosion, which struck as the market in Karradah was packed with shoppers. The blast also burned nine cars and set a three-story building on fire, according to police and hospital officials who gave the casualty toll. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to disclose information.
It was the deadliest in a series of attacks nationwide that left at least 50 people dead.
The three U.S. Marines and a sailor died Tuesday in combat in Diyala province ? the site of a major military operation against a Sunni insurgent stronghold, the military said Thursday. It announced earlier that a U.S. soldier was killed Wednesday during a gunbattle in southern Baghdad.
A Marine also died Sunday in a non-combat related incident in Anbar province, west of Baghdad, the military said separately.
At least 64 U.S. troops have died this month, a relatively low number compared with American death tolls of more than 100 for the previous three months, according to an Associated Press tally based on military statements.
Lt. Gen. Ray Odierno, the top day-to-day U.S. commander in Iraq, expressed cautious optimism over the lower number, with a week to go before the end of the month.
He said it appeared that casualties had increased as fresh U.S. forces expanded operations into militant strongholds as part of the 5-month-old security operation aimed at clamping off violence in the capital, but were going down as the Americans gained control of the areas.
"We've started to see a slow but gradual reduction in casualties, and it continues in July," he said at a news conference with Iraqi military commander Maj. Gen. Abboud Qanbar. "It's an initial positive sign, but I would argue we need a bit more time to make an assessment whether it's a true trend."
The death toll over the months of April, May and June was unusually high. The toll the preceding three months ranged from 81 to 83. In July 2006, the toll was 43.
Odierno also said the U.S. military has noted a "significant improvement" in the aim of attackers firing rockets and mortars into the heavily fortified Green Zone in the past three months.
Faris Hamza, a 42-year-old who works in a clothing store near the site of the blast in Baghdad, said the market was packed with shoppers. He described a scene of chaos with vendors helping to carry the wounded to hospitals and wounded women and children begging for help.
"The stalls were turned upside down because of the powerful explosion. There were many shoppers in the market and most of the store owners were looking forward to good sales but instead they had to close their shops and run away," he said, his shirt soaked with blood. "This violence is not only killing people, it is also starving them."
Also Thursday, U.S. Ambassador Ryan Crocker said increased U.S. troop strength had brought down violence, but it was impossible to rush political reconciliation or to predict when conditions would allow the United States to begin reducing its involvement.
With less than two months remaining before Crocker and Gen. David Petraeus, the U.S. commander in Iraq, are to report to Congress about progress in Iraq, the top diplomat also told the AP that reconciliation is going to be "a long, hard pull."
"The surge (increase of 30,000 American troops) has done very well indeed in making a difference in security conditions. There's no question, in the Anbar (province) and Baghdad area. But it's not a light switch. You don't just flip something up and everyone is reconciled," Crocker said in an interview.
Pressed on when he thought U.S. troop levels could be reduced and other American involvement might be scaled back, Crocker said: "It's going to take longer than September."
The ambassador defended Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, who is under heavy U.S. pressure for his failure to shepherd benchmark legislation through parliament, as being "as frustrated as anybody else here or at home.
"He would like to get things done and as he points out, he understands the importance of the benchmarks for us. He'd like to get those done," Crocker said.
Meanwhile, the head of Britain's armed forces said British troops are likely to hand control of the southern city of Basra to local forces by the end of the year.
Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup said a decision on exactly when responsibilities would be ceded to Iraq's police and military will be made in the coming months.
"We are very close to being able to hand over Basra in my judgment," Stirrup told BBC radio. "Just when we will reach that point is at the moment uncertain but I am fairly confident it'll be in the second half of the year."
About 5,500 British troops are in Iraq. That will go down by 500 once British forces vacate a base in central Basra later this summer.
Odierno said networks continue to smuggle powerful roadside bombs and mortars across the border from Iran despite Tehran's assertions that it supports stability in Iraq, though he offered no proof. Iran has denied the U.S. allegations about its activities in Iraq.
End story-
The progress
More progress
Bomb kills 25 in Shiite area of Baghdad By HAMID AHMED, Associated Press Writer , 2 hours, 10 minutes ago, 7/26/07.
BAGHDAD - A parked car bomb exploded near a market in a predominantly Shiite area of Baghdad on Thursday, killing at least 25 people and wounding 74, police said.
The U.S. military also said five American troops had died in fighting this week ? four northeast of the capital and one in Baghdad.
Smoke billowed into the sky and fires burned on the ground after the thunderous explosion, which struck as the market in Karradah was packed with shoppers. The blast also burned nine cars and set a three-story building on fire, according to police and hospital officials who gave the casualty toll. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to disclose information.
It was the deadliest in a series of attacks nationwide that left at least 50 people dead.
The three U.S. Marines and a sailor died Tuesday in combat in Diyala province ? the site of a major military operation against a Sunni insurgent stronghold, the military said Thursday. It announced earlier that a U.S. soldier was killed Wednesday during a gunbattle in southern Baghdad.
A Marine also died Sunday in a non-combat related incident in Anbar province, west of Baghdad, the military said separately.
At least 64 U.S. troops have died this month, a relatively low number compared with American death tolls of more than 100 for the previous three months, according to an Associated Press tally based on military statements.
Lt. Gen. Ray Odierno, the top day-to-day U.S. commander in Iraq, expressed cautious optimism over the lower number, with a week to go before the end of the month.
He said it appeared that casualties had increased as fresh U.S. forces expanded operations into militant strongholds as part of the 5-month-old security operation aimed at clamping off violence in the capital, but were going down as the Americans gained control of the areas.
"We've started to see a slow but gradual reduction in casualties, and it continues in July," he said at a news conference with Iraqi military commander Maj. Gen. Abboud Qanbar. "It's an initial positive sign, but I would argue we need a bit more time to make an assessment whether it's a true trend."
The death toll over the months of April, May and June was unusually high. The toll the preceding three months ranged from 81 to 83. In July 2006, the toll was 43.
Odierno also said the U.S. military has noted a "significant improvement" in the aim of attackers firing rockets and mortars into the heavily fortified Green Zone in the past three months.
Faris Hamza, a 42-year-old who works in a clothing store near the site of the blast in Baghdad, said the market was packed with shoppers. He described a scene of chaos with vendors helping to carry the wounded to hospitals and wounded women and children begging for help.
"The stalls were turned upside down because of the powerful explosion. There were many shoppers in the market and most of the store owners were looking forward to good sales but instead they had to close their shops and run away," he said, his shirt soaked with blood. "This violence is not only killing people, it is also starving them."
Also Thursday, U.S. Ambassador Ryan Crocker said increased U.S. troop strength had brought down violence, but it was impossible to rush political reconciliation or to predict when conditions would allow the United States to begin reducing its involvement.
With less than two months remaining before Crocker and Gen. David Petraeus, the U.S. commander in Iraq, are to report to Congress about progress in Iraq, the top diplomat also told the AP that reconciliation is going to be "a long, hard pull."
"The surge (increase of 30,000 American troops) has done very well indeed in making a difference in security conditions. There's no question, in the Anbar (province) and Baghdad area. But it's not a light switch. You don't just flip something up and everyone is reconciled," Crocker said in an interview.
Pressed on when he thought U.S. troop levels could be reduced and other American involvement might be scaled back, Crocker said: "It's going to take longer than September."
The ambassador defended Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, who is under heavy U.S. pressure for his failure to shepherd benchmark legislation through parliament, as being "as frustrated as anybody else here or at home.
"He would like to get things done and as he points out, he understands the importance of the benchmarks for us. He'd like to get those done," Crocker said.
Meanwhile, the head of Britain's armed forces said British troops are likely to hand control of the southern city of Basra to local forces by the end of the year.
Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup said a decision on exactly when responsibilities would be ceded to Iraq's police and military will be made in the coming months.
"We are very close to being able to hand over Basra in my judgment," Stirrup told BBC radio. "Just when we will reach that point is at the moment uncertain but I am fairly confident it'll be in the second half of the year."
About 5,500 British troops are in Iraq. That will go down by 500 once British forces vacate a base in central Basra later this summer.
Odierno said networks continue to smuggle powerful roadside bombs and mortars across the border from Iran despite Tehran's assertions that it supports stability in Iraq, though he offered no proof. Iran has denied the U.S. allegations about its activities in Iraq.
End story-
palehorse
Lifer
- Dec 21, 2005
- 11,521
- 0
- 76
ooooOOOooo beware the little black helicopters and men with masks! :roll:Originally posted by: jpeyton
That's a common misconception about our war in Iraq.Originally posted by: palehorse74
I've readily given up several freedoms to fight for yours.
The American people have lost more freedoms than we've gained.
- Aug 23, 2003
- 25,375
- 142
- 116
Poor guy; still thinking Iraq posed/poses a threat to the US.Originally posted by: palehorse74
ooooOOOooo beware the little black helicopters and men with masks! :roll:Originally posted by: jpeyton
That's a common misconception about our war in Iraq.Originally posted by: palehorse74
I've readily given up several freedoms to fight for yours.
The American people have lost more freedoms than we've gained.
You're fighting for somebody's freedom, just not ours.
palehorse
Lifer
- Dec 21, 2005
- 11,521
- 0
- 76
Sometimes I feel that they've done more to deserve freedom than folks like you have.Originally posted by: jpeyton
Poor guy; still thinking Iraq posed/poses a threat to the US.Originally posted by: palehorse74
ooooOOOooo beware the little black helicopters and men with masks! :roll:Originally posted by: jpeyton
That's a common misconception about our war in Iraq.Originally posted by: palehorse74
I've readily given up several freedoms to fight for yours.
The American people have lost more freedoms than we've gained.
You're fighting for somebody's freedom, just not ours.
JohnOfSheffield
Lifer
- Jun 26, 2007
- 11,925
- 2
- 0
Hehe, you're so daft that even when reality proves you wrong you go with the lies.
The UN security council was presented with bullshit and said that there is a certain amount of uncertainty and bogus information, the information Powell provided that he knew was false didn't convince anyone, so the inspectors were ordered to finish their job, we all know what happened next.
But if the inspections had been allowed to continue and found exactly what the invasion found, no chemical, biological, or nuclear weapons or even the means to get them the Admins reason to invade would have been obliterated.
Remember that they used complete and utter KNOWN lies both in the US, in Congress and in the news.
45 minute threat anyone? Nuclear cloud? Full of shit president and administration anyone?
Don't fucking pretend like they didn't do this exactly like they wanted it done and fooled a lot of very stupid Americans, actually, since the nutjob got reelected, i don't think there are that many Americans left with a functioning brain at all.
There are still people who support the war on Iraq on the basis of WMD's.. How anyone could support it on any other basis i don't know, they have to make up new shit every fucking week, but some still claim the WMD defense.
Explain to me how tens of millions got that brainwashed that fast.
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