Welfare needs to go

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed
The answer is simple, the problem is this Goldwater era notion of less government. (and the basis of modern conservatism) Less Government is NOT THE ANSWER. Efficient and transparent government that answers to the people is.
If we have accountability the government will have to trim the fat anyhow. And programs that need to be bigger will be able to grow. As much as some people have been raised with the conservative mantra of make the government so small it can be drowned in the bathtub big problems need big solutions. That is just the way it is.
The old phrase cutting your nose off despite your face seems to have escaped conservatives. And is why they are so terrible at governing.

In reality it is basically an excuse to be corrupt since all government is inherently evil anyhow, so why not go on the take?
The whole anti-welfare thing is just thinly veiled racism for some, and a sort of twisted class warfare jealousy by most for getting to scam the "evil" system when they cannot.
Anyhow, my 2c critique of what is so dysfunctional about conservatism. Take it as you will.

That is a funny response considering Goldwater ran before the LBJ's great society which implemented the giant govt welfare state we have today. The problem isnt conservatism and its desire for less govt intervention. The problem is the giant govt that backs the welfare state. Funny how the left will always try to pin the failings of their own instutions on the right. It never fails.

If you think govt is so small why does it consume on the federal level nearly 25% of our GDP? If you include the states it pushes a third of our GDP. Compare that to 70 years ago, hell compare it to the JFK era. There hasnt been a serious small govt push in decades. No matter how much you want to believe it.

edit: I had to add your quip about christianity. In case you didnt notice many liberal faiths are the one pushing the welfare state. What they cant collect on Sundays they want the govt collect forecfully to help the poor.

Don't like the size of the federal budget, how about we start the cuts with defense spending?

I don't know about you, but MOST conservatives start throwing a hissy fit at the suggestion...which is why we have big government. NOBODY wants small government, they want THEIR government. For conservatives, that means government small enough to grant no-bid contracts to defense contractors the VP worked for and government small enough to fit into your bedroom. For liberals, that means welfare and a lot of government social programs. People might not agree on WHAT the government does, but all the bullshit for the right aside, they all seem to agree on the size.

 

[Siddhartha]

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Zeppelin2282
When is this shit going to end? All it does is allow the lazy to continue to sit on their asses and be non productive members of our society. Their sole purpose in life is to make sure they collect their god damn welfare check. They then instill it in their kids to do the same and so they continue to produce these generations of fuck ups.

Believe it or not Louis Farrakhan shares the same opinion as you. He calls it a different form of slavery. Welfare assistance is fine if it's used properly but there are those who take advantage of it and make it so reviled amongst those who pay for it.

I use to share the same sentiment as the OP. Than lost my job as they shipped them overseas. I had to go on welfare for two months before I could find more work.

Obviously a lot of people abuse the system, but it is the only means of survival for alot of people. How about address the reason people are on welfare rather than kill what is keeping the poor masses alive.

I have never shared the OP views on welfare. I know people, including family members, who were on welfare when they lost their jobs and needed help feeding their kids. I want my tax money to go to helping people than to go to anything else.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: Genx87


edit: I had to add your quip about christianity. In case you didnt notice many liberal faiths are the one pushing the welfare state. What they cant collect on Sundays they want the govt collect forecfully to help the poor.

I did edit that in the name of fairness to mention Liberals altruism that is probably based off the teachings of Christ. Your notion of "forcefully pushing" is borderline libertarian silliness though.

Funny how you can still see the religious divide in the parties even though it has pretty much gone out of style to consider others actual religious denominations anymore socially?
Dems = Catholics who are all about altruism
Reps = Protestants who are all about fear mongering and their god being a big badass above all "worldy institutions" (IE satan).

Silly factoid: You know when a Liberal gets called "Bleeding Heart" it is a old slur against Catholics?

Oh yeah? When liberal religions cant take enough on Sundays collections and petition the state to take more. Do you consider that voluntary for the people being asked by the state to cough up more money?

Either way you didnt address the rest of my post about leftist institutions failings being pinned on conservatives. That imo is a more tantalizing a subject.

btw I am a Catholic and ashamed of what my religion does at times.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed
The answer is simple, the problem is this Goldwater era notion of less government. (and the basis of modern conservatism) Less Government is NOT THE ANSWER. Efficient and transparent government that answers to the people is.
If we have accountability the government will have to trim the fat anyhow. And programs that need to be bigger will be able to grow. As much as some people have been raised with the conservative mantra of make the government so small it can be drowned in the bathtub big problems need big solutions. That is just the way it is.
The old phrase cutting your nose off despite your face seems to have escaped conservatives. And is why they are so terrible at governing.

In reality it is basically an excuse to be corrupt since all government is inherently evil anyhow, so why not go on the take?
The whole anti-welfare thing is just thinly veiled racism for some, and a sort of twisted class warfare jealousy by most for getting to scam the "evil" system when they cannot.
Anyhow, my 2c critique of what is so dysfunctional about conservatism. Take it as you will.

That is a funny response considering Goldwater ran before the LBJ's great society which implemented the giant govt welfare state we have today. The problem isnt conservatism and its desire for less govt intervention. The problem is the giant govt that backs the welfare state. Funny how the left will always try to pin the failings of their own instutions on the right. It never fails.

If you think govt is so small why does it consume on the federal level nearly 25% of our GDP? If you include the states it pushes a third of our GDP. Compare that to 70 years ago, hell compare it to the JFK era. There hasnt been a serious small govt push in decades. No matter how much you want to believe it.

edit: I had to add your quip about christianity. In case you didnt notice many liberal faiths are the one pushing the welfare state. What they cant collect on Sundays they want the govt collect forecfully to help the poor.

Don't like the size of the federal budget, how about we start the cuts with defense spending?

I don't know about you, but MOST conservatives start throwing a hissy fit at the suggestion...which is why we have big government. NOBODY wants small government, they want THEIR government. For conservatives, that means government small enough to grant no-bid contracts to defense contractors the VP worked for and government small enough to fit into your bedroom. For liberals, that means welfare and a lot of government social programs. People might not agree on WHAT the government does, but all the bullshit for the right aside, they all seem to agree on the size.

Defense spending is a legitimate and sanctioned function of the federal govt via our constitution. That said the size of the budget pertaining to disctionary spending has dropped over the last few decades. It now represents about 1/3rd of our federal budget. The other 2/3rds of the federal budget is largely social programs. Go ahead cut the spending that represents about 15% of our federal budget(defense). But please cut an equal amount from the non-discretionary portion as well.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Genx87


Either way you didnt address the rest of my post about leftist institutions failings being pinned on conservatives. That imo is a more tantalizing a subject.

btw I am a Catholic and ashamed of what my religion does at times.

I looked, do not see where you are speaking of such, do you mean the failures of LBJs great society? It had it's good points and bad, but a lot of the good has been cut to the bone thanks to Conservative small government ideology, yes..same as FDR.
Fact is we have prospered like never before thanks to these programs, and had a pretty stable society. You can ignore that if you wish. But that is your issue, not mine. No offense.

All religions and religion itself has issues. I am not going to get into criticizing the institutions of religion here and start a huge thread derailment though. We have all heard it before

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: Genx87


If you think govt is so small

Never said it was. It is huge, your point?

Originally posted by: Genx87
why does it consume on the federal level nearly 25% of our GDP? If you include the states it pushes a third of our GDP. Compare that to 70 years ago, hell compare it to the JFK era.

Like I said, big problems need big solutions, compare the population growth of this country and volia. No commie conspiracy to grow the government, I would not expect any different seeing as how much bigger the country is would you?

Originally posted by: Genx87
There hasnt been a serious small govt push in decades. No matter how much you want to believe it.

Never said there was, wouldn't make sense if there was either unless we hit another huge depression, which we have not had mostly thanks to FDR.

1. I think my point about the size of govt is your notion that conservatives and their idea of small govt have somehow made the failures of the modern welfare system. It is quite obvious that the welfare system has caused the failures of the system.

2. That is such a copout. If the size of the population is growing so if the size of the economy. Why cant govt stay within the bounds of the growth of the econmy? Why does govt get to expand at a rate higher than the rate of the economy?

3. You alluded to conservatism and its small govt mantra being the reason for the failings of the welfare state. I am simply pointing out the failings in that reasoning considering there hasnt been a real small govt push in decades.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: Genx87


Either way you didnt address the rest of my post about leftist institutions failings being pinned on conservatives. That imo is a more tantalizing a subject.

btw I am a Catholic and ashamed of what my religion does at times.

I looked, do not see where you are speaking of such, do you mean the failures of LBJs great society? It had it's good points and bad, but a lot of the good has been cut to the bone thanks to Conservative small government ideology, yes..same as FDR.

All religions and religion itself has issues. I am not going to get into criticizing the institutions of religion here and start a huge thread derailment though. We have all heard it before

I am trying to find this small govt conservatism you keep talking about. The federal budget and size and scope of the govt has grown quite a bit under both republican and democrat administrations.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Genx87

3. You alluded to conservatism and its small govt mantra being the reason for the failings of the welfare state. I am simply pointing out the failings in that reasoning considering there hasnt been a real small govt push in decades.

Actions speak louder then words, like I said, we have a pretty stable and prosperous society, even though the protections given to us are constantly undermined by Conservatives.
The more Conservatives take what the people fought for, the more instability we have. Seems we will never learn from the mistakes of the past thanks to idealists.

Disagree if you wish, but it is pointless to argue with someone who denies something so obvious in right in front of their face.
Welfare or Welfare state is not a bad word btw, it works fine for the rest of the world that are passing us up or are catching up in quite a few aspects.
Adapt or fall behind, some ideas sound great in theory, but get tossed aside sooner or later when they are shown not to work. Like small govt conservatism/privatize yo grandma and let the market sort it out free market pyramid scheme foisted upon us by Libertarian think tanks that have taken control of the Republicans since Reagan.

Fare thee well my friend. =)

 

[Zebo]

I can find A LOT better things to complain about since AFDC is like 1-2% of Federal budget. I see both sides of the moral argument: the whole fostering sloth/entitlement/crippling issue guys like Farrakhan complain about and that we also have a moral obligation to help support our downtrodden. It's a tough issue since some need it and some don't. No way to really arbitrate practically. But the bottom line it's a drop in the bucket compared to farmers welfare or military adventurism and the second help no one. Quite the contrary.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed

Originally posted by: Genx87

3. You alluded to conservatism and its small govt mantra being the reason for the failings of the welfare state. I am simply pointing out the failings in that reasoning considering there hasnt been a real small govt push in decades.

Actions speak louder then words, like I said, we have a pretty stable and prosperous society, even though the protections given to us are constantly undermined by Conservatives.
The more Conservatives take what the people fought for, the more instability we have. Seems we will never learn from the mistakes of the past thanks to idealists.

Disagree if you wish, but it is pointless to argue with someone who denies something so obvious in right in front of their face.
Welfare or Welfare state is not a bad word btw, it works fine for the rest of the world.

Fare thee well my friend. =)

Like I asked before. Where have they seriously undermined these initiatives? The govt has expanded fine under both parties whether they claim to be conservative or not. Are you under the impression Bush is a conservative? If so how can you explain No Child Left Behind and the Medicare Druge Benefit? Both of those are real sound contractions of govt(not).

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Like I asked before. Where have they seriously undermined these initiatives? The govt has expanded fine under both parties whether they claim to be conservative or not. Are you under the impression Bush is a conservative? If so how can you explain No Child Left Behind and the Medicare Druge Benefit? Both of those are real sound contractions of govt(not).

[/quote]

These are but a few handpicked examples. Conservatives have been out to destroy the work of FDR and of course LBJs great society by defunding/corrupting them and then of course pointing out that they do not work for ages.
Where have you been for the past few decades?

The lack of the Conservative party fulfilling killing such programs off and "shrinking the government" is just another example that the foundations of Conservative philosophy is impossible and contradictory to a functioning society.

In reality it has been a way to make big business rich through corruption then try to point the finger at Liberal philosophy as the cause of the failures (the red scare/fall of the SU helped a bit too).

You can only fool people for so long before the house of cards come down and rational compromises must be made to keep the state functioning such as in the case in the cherry-picked programs you used as an example backed by Bush.

There is a reason that until Reagan (and sometimes back into Nixon era) the radical market-libertarian mindset of Goldwater/Ayn Randian philosophies were fringe in the Republican party. It is naive idealism, no better then using Communism as a model for a society and just as destined to fail.

Edit: Fusetalk mashing up quotes?

 

[Throckmorton]

What percentage of the budget is welfare? What would be the cost to our society if it didn't exist?

 

[Mr. Lennon]

Originally posted by: Ozoned

Originally posted by: Zeppelin2282
All it does is allow the lazy to continue to sit on their asses and be non productive members of our society

49 million americans have disabilities. 30 million of those are severe. What do you have in mind for them? Bullet in the back of the head?

Where did I say in my original post that people with disabilities are lazy? I'm talking about the perfectly healthy fuck ups that abuse the system. I have no problem with our government helping out the disabled.

 

[Mr. Lennon]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: Tab

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: DaveSimmons
It's too bad when anyone brings up mandatory contraceptive implants for those receiving welfare it's called "racist" and "genocidal."

It's not, it's classist. White trash would get the implants too.

In NY state, welfare is crushing us economically. In our county, they've had to divert funding from education to make up the latest shortfall. It's killing us. So reform? Well, no. We were told that despite our situation reworking welfare was out of the question. Welfare recipients are a huge political force, and any politician who dares to mention reform is tarred and feathered as a racist and ruined for life.

I work in inner city settings, and I know without doubt that many single women get pregnant, because in their minds it's profitable. That's damned wrong. I'd love to run as a one term official (and I certainly would never be relected) and put a broom or a shovel in the hands of everyone who is able to work if they want a dime. You won't hear of that because it's beneath the dignity of those who's sole career goal is a check from the state.

You got anything to back that up? I don't know about you but to me your post smells real bad...

You want a tape recording?
I've heard women discussing their pregnancies, and were glad because having a baby meant more money. This happened more than once. Is it universal? No, however the attitude is nothing that anyone seemed ashamed of. That's what stinks. Try to build in accountability, at least in NY and you'll be crucified.

I don't advocate eliminating welfare programs, but you can't even hope for any reform at all. It's a Sacred Cow.

I have heard similar stories from a NYPD cop. There are tons of people abusing the system over there.

 

[Steeplerot]

Originally posted by: Throckmorton
What percentage of the budget is welfare? What would be the cost to our society if it didn't exist?

That is a tough thing to search for, the data is so buried, from a bunch of XLS files on 2008 Federal budget, it breaks down like this:

It seems Welfare is about 2%
SS 8%
Medicare is a whopping 12%.
Our interest is somewhere around 12% wtf?

Medicare could be trimmed with UHC I bet it would be the same or about the same with good coverage for all.
The insurance companies are fleecing the hell out of us and not providing any useful service but as a middle man getting in the way of doctors taking care of their patients.

Oh, and just for shits and giggles lets see how The War is going as far as our wallets:


$481.4 billion (+12.1%) - United States Department of Defense
$145.2 billion (+45.8%) - Global War on Terror


These figures are not exact, I cannot make heads or tails of a lot of it. But 2% for welfare seems the consensus on the net.

I am fine with ditching the war and upping welfare to 5% if it means free college or something useful. But then they would have a helluva time getting people to join the service I bet.

 

[shortylickens]

I think they should only pay out for a max of one or two kids.

 

[Siddhartha]

Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed
Yeah, that's the ticket, lets cut off all these progarms, starting with:
Roads (just encourages fat asses to drive instead of walk.),
Bridges (too lazy to learn to swim?),
Clean drinking water (boil your own water you leech!)
Military, (get your own gun or learn another language lardasses)
Food quality inspection (cook your food well done you mooch!)
Drug inspection (don't get sick you weakling!)
Bank regulation (too lazy to steal from them first? What kind of capitalist are you?)
Wastewater treatment (your shit is your own problem, yuck!)
Law enforcement (what are you a coward?)
Mail (too lazy to carry a little ass envelope? too bad!)
Social security (old people are useless anyhow, they already made decent wage slaves so its time to die)
Schools (what do you need to read for? You into poetry or something you sissy boy?)

This is such a stupid line of thinking, mostly from folks who are supported by mommy and daddy anyhow. Or ironically from redder states that suck up more taxes then they produce. Sure there are a few people who game the system, but mostly welfare is too much of a hassle compared to just gettiing a job. So easy to blame the folks who cannot help themselves, you all are beneath contempt.

I have noticed that people who are against "welfare" are for welfare only if it benefits them, their family, friends, and people who look like them.

 

[waggy]

walfare is fine.

its the fact so many abuse it that screw it up for those that need it. it was meant for the stay at home mother with kids who had the father die and leave them with nothing. to pad people figured out if you got knocked up at 16 you got money, housing, foodstamps, etc. and more kids you have the more money went up.

we need a way to get people off welfare and survive without goverment help. but i am against stopping it all togher..just punish the people who cheat.

 

[classy]

Welfare is a good thing. The problem is there are those who abuse it. It will never good away and nor should it. Just need better accountability.

 

[shadow9d9]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider

Originally posted by: DaveSimmons
It's too bad when anyone brings up mandatory contraceptive implants for those receiving welfare it's called "racist" and "genocidal."

It's not, it's classist. White trash would get the implants too.

In NY state, welfare is crushing us economically. In our county, they've had to divert funding from education to make up the latest shortfall. It's killing us. So reform? Well, no. We were told that despite our situation reworking welfare was out of the question. Welfare recipients are a huge political force, and any politician who dares to mention reform is tarred and feathered as a racist and ruined for life.

I work in inner city settings, and I know without doubt that many single women get pregnant, because in their minds it's profitable. That's damned wrong. I'd love to run as a one term official (and I certainly would never be relected) and put a broom or a shovel in the hands of everyone who is able to work if they want a dime. You won't hear of that because it's beneath the dignity of those who's sole career goal is a check from the state.

People won't care if we hand out 100s upon 100s of billions to corporations.

 

[Modelworks]

Welfare is fine for people that need it. It also is not as easy to get as some people think.
My dad for example. He gets $1100 a month social security. That is his only income. Out of that he has to pay $100 medicare premium, $450 rent, $200 utilities, $200 prescription/oxygen cost, $100 copays for doctor visits. That leaves him nothing for food or clothing or things like soap, paper towels, etc. He does not qualify for any aid from the state. He is 79 years old so I doubt he is able to get a job, seeing as he is on oxygen as well.

What I hate is the laws concerning illegals. If you are pregnant , you can come here with 3 children , no husband, and have that child here. The child is now a USA citizen and so the mother and her now 4 children get full benefits from the state. That includes all medical, food , and housing. Things my father cannot get even though he worked for over 50 years.

 

[chess9]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: Zeppelin2282
When is this shit going to end? All it does is allow the lazy to continue to sit on their asses and be non productive members of our society. Their sole purpose in life is to make sure they collect their god damn welfare check. They then instill it in their kids to do the same and so they continue to produce these generations of fuck ups.

Damn, either you're a mean, cold assed fsck or a dumb fsck! Even before our current record unemployment, what makes you think everyone who is qualified to work can find work? What makes you such a cold hearted prick that you wouldn't help the ill, disabled and homeless who would love to work if they could.

Over-generously assuming you ever had any humanity, exactly where did you leave it? :roll:

Bah freaking humbug! Here's wishing you not even a stinking, shit covered, burning lump of coal in your holiday stocking. :thumbsdown:

You know if it weren't for the fucking assholes that take advantage of it many like the OP wouldn't have the opinion he does. Instead of insulting him maybe you should turn your derisions on those who abuse the system

The number of people who can find jobs who are on welfare NOW is fairly small since about 1996, if I recall correctly. The systemic welfare abuses were rather large prior to welfare reform.

At the moment, I'd say the Department of Defense wastes more money in one day than Welfare Cheats take from the system in a year.

I honestly think Harvey is spot on. The OP obviously knows little about the current state of welfare in our country, to say nothing of the high poverty levels, non-existent health care, high death rates for newborns because of poor neonatal care, ad nauseam.

If America's corporations weren't sending so many jobs overseas, a lot of these people could be working in call centers here. When the OP loses his job to some guy in Iceland, he'll be singing a different tune.

-Robert

 

[BoomerD]

Originally posted by: Jhhnn
The OP's opinion, and those similar, are deliberately cultivated by purveyors of outrage and smug self righteousness, while those who hold them are generally addicted to that particular product.

It's as if the only way they can feel good about themselves is to look down their noses at somebody else, and to assign much greater significance to the perceived "problem" than reality dictates.

As a nation, we dole out "welfare" to people who don't even need it, in the form of taxcuts at the top, no bid contracts and a thousand forms of corporate welfare- but none of that counts, obviously, when we can blame poor people for our woes. They lack the means to fight back effectively, which makes them perfect targets for the diversionary finger pointing of the far Right-

http://www.apa.org/pi/wpo/myths.html

I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

I couldn't agree more with the above post.

While the welfare system needs to be overhauled and lots of the people who are collecting "the dole" need to be kicked off, I'm FAR more concerned about the rampant corporate welfare in our country. All the things mentioned by Jhhnn, PLUS subsidies for corporations to advertise their products overseas...paid for by the taxpayers...subsidies to corporate farms...often to NOT grow crops...subsidies and tax breaks for "Big Oil" that don't bring dow the price...just increase the bottom line for the corporations.

Our once great country of "Of the People, By the People, and For the People" has been dragged down to "Of the Corporation, By the Corporation, and FOR the Corporation."

 

[dennilfloss]

Originally posted by: Zeppelin2282

edit: I'm talking about the perfectly healthy fuck ups that abuse the system. I have no problem with our government helping out the disabled.

As one of those permanently disabled and unable to work, I'm glad to see your edit. As for those who abuse the system, they make it hard on people who honestly need it. This results in less money available for true needs and us having to get financial audits every 2-3 years to ensure we're not cheating the system. One couple in Toronto about 10 years ago was getting something like 250 cheques each month under different names before they got caught.:thumbsdown:

 

[TheSlamma]

Originally posted by: bctbct
pfft, corporate welfare is sucking us dry not the lazy people.

pfft, both are shit so lets nuke them both.