Anything the Government touches costs more in the long run.
If you want your taxes to go up 20%-40% overnight go ahead and set this up.
If you want your taxes to go up 20%-40% overnight go ahead and set this up.
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
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No one can be denied medical treatment in the US because of an inability to pay.
BTW, Tango's post does not prove that America has a health care problem, it proves that America has a health maintenance problem. People don't eat right, don't exercise regularly (if at all), they smoke, they drink, they do drugs, and just plain don't take proper care of themselves. They get fat, they get sick, they take drugs hoping to get well, the drugs only do so much, then they die. No amount of government-paid "universal" health care will fix that problem. That's like putting a band-aid on sucking chest wound.
So they can get treatment, then you're in hundreds of thousands dollars of debt which you or your children will never ever pay off in your lives. So yeah, that's pretty much denial by inability to pay, if the future is thought of.
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
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Okay, suppose we pay for all their health needs. They get treatment without having to do a thing for themselves but show up for it, and then never change their self-destructive lifestyle. What future do they have then?
A band-aid on a sucking chest wound. If there is one thing I cannot stand, it is people who insist on having everyone believe that they are truly well-intentioned when all the "solutions" they wish to force on everyone are nothing but simplistic knee-jerk reactions to complex problems.
Tango:
I knew the avg life expectancy didnt look right and if you look at their website you are quoting avg life expectancy's from 1960, not today for the US the avg is nearly 10 years higher at 76.8.
The delta between the US and the highest is 4 years, we fall right in the middle of the top tier countries. Infant mortality rates are hard to judge and it says it right in the sheet due to the United States counting pre-mature babies as live births where many other nations do not. In fact when you run through these sheets most mention not using the information to compare different countries due to differences in reporting practices and standards.
I knew the avg life expectancy didnt look right and if you look at their website you are quoting avg life expectancy's from 1960, not today for the US the avg is nearly 10 years higher at 76.8.
The delta between the US and the highest is 4 years, we fall right in the middle of the top tier countries. Infant mortality rates are hard to judge and it says it right in the sheet due to the United States counting pre-mature babies as live births where many other nations do not. In fact when you run through these sheets most mention not using the information to compare different countries due to differences in reporting practices and standards.
Ah, so all cancer is caused by self-destructive behaviour is it?
I'm just saying, people ARE turned away from medical treatment for inability to pay, which is social stratifying at its finest.
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
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I think it could be easily argued that MOST cancers are caused by self-destructive behaviors, either directly (i.e. smoking) or indirectly (i.e. poor diet, lack of exercise, etc.). Genetic predisposition does play a role, of course, but that applies to everything healthwise (for example, some people can die almost instantly from a simple bee sting, so they should take more care to make sure that they don't get stung).
People are turned away from purchasing ANY product for inability to pay. Is that also socially stratifying? At least with health care, it is actually illegal to turn people away simply because they have the inability to pay.
So they don't get charged for medical treatment, then? That's certainly interesting. I know of about 2 AIDS clinics whose policy is they'll help you even if you don't have health insurance. I'm sure you'll say that all of these people brought it upon themselves by being irresponsible, good little Republican you undoubtedly are.
1) Stop the benefits to illegal immigrants.
2) Seriously cut back on welfare, etc. A lot of people abuse the system.
3) 400B/year militaty budget? Let's takeover the world!
= more money = healthcare for all citizens
???
2) Seriously cut back on welfare, etc. A lot of people abuse the system.
3) 400B/year militaty budget? Let's takeover the world!
= more money = healthcare for all citizens
???
Vic
Elite Member
- Jun 12, 2001
- 50,422
- 14,337
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I didn't say they don't get charged. I said that they cannot be denied treatment. Nor am I even remotely a Republican. Nice troll attempt though. McOwen has taught you well.
Let me go back a couple of posts:
"If there is one thing I cannot stand, it is people who insist on having everyone believe that they are truly well-intentioned when all the "solutions" they wish to force on everyone are nothing but simplistic knee-jerk reactions to complex problems."
How is it that you think you can pretend to care when you obviously don't even care enough to think? Complex real-life problems cannot be solved with simplistic idealistic solutions.
We wouldn't be having so many problems if people would just keep themselves up. Go outside and exercise. It is because Americans are lazy and always want everything done for us that we are sick.
i would argue that american probably work out far more than anyone else in the world. Anyone has stats showing % of americans that join a gym? how much is spent on dieting, supplements, excercise equipment? we probably outspend the world on a per capita basis, yet we don't live longer.
I think the benefits of having universal healthcare is that it allows people to see a doctor for tests, prenatal care, screening, etc BEFORE they get sick. It's not throwing money at treating diseases caused by a lifetime of unhealthy behavior. THe point is to get people on the right track before they land in the ER where it will cost probably 100X more than a visit to a doctor for a yearly checkup.
It may be true that some Americans work out more than others, but how can you deny the obesity levels, heart disease levels, and things like this aren't affecting our populus. I agree that people need to get on track for being healthy, but a doctor shouldn't have to tell you to eat right, or go exercise, etc. Also, the ER is an emergency room, not a clinic. In the long run a program of getting people motivated to eat better and take care of themselves would save way more money than having to treat them for the diseases they cause. As the saying goes, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.
Data is 2004. It's HEALTHY life expectancy, not just total life expectancy. I think that's what confused you.
At OECD they do have a set of statistic instruments to consider reporting practices, although hare it doesn't really matter considering we are comparing the US to other developed countries, not to developing countries where these differences could be significant. In many cases the OECD gather data itself, and in some instances some countries were left out of the sample for not matching the criteria.
Currently in the US we have a form of universal healthcare and I'm sitting in it right now. Sunday night in the ER. I don't even know if my patients have coverage. Problem is that the Emergency Medicine system is on the brink of collapse. The cost of care is 4-5 times more expensive because those you have have to pay for those who have-not.
And the amount of reimbursement from insurance companies and medicare has actually decreased over the past 10 years. Could any of you imagine making less money now then you did 10 years ago. Meanwhile the cost of testing has tripled, and people expect the most expensive tests even if there is no medical reason to do them. And we docs do multiple tests to prove that the patient doesnot have what we already know they do not have. People seek care within hours of feeling the least bit sick when the vast majority of time the illness is self limited, not to mention to early to tell what it may be.
People refuse to take time off work to rest and spend the required time to heal not to mention protecting their fellow workers from communicable diseases.
Like someone said earlier universal health care is like communism, great in theory but full of practicle pitfalls.
In countries with universal healthcare there is no incentive for talented minds to enter the field and the best and the brightest persue other carriers. Not what I want in my fellows, consultants or personal physician.
And the amount of reimbursement from insurance companies and medicare has actually decreased over the past 10 years. Could any of you imagine making less money now then you did 10 years ago. Meanwhile the cost of testing has tripled, and people expect the most expensive tests even if there is no medical reason to do them. And we docs do multiple tests to prove that the patient doesnot have what we already know they do not have. People seek care within hours of feeling the least bit sick when the vast majority of time the illness is self limited, not to mention to early to tell what it may be.
People refuse to take time off work to rest and spend the required time to heal not to mention protecting their fellow workers from communicable diseases.
Like someone said earlier universal health care is like communism, great in theory but full of practicle pitfalls.
In countries with universal healthcare there is no incentive for talented minds to enter the field and the best and the brightest persue other carriers. Not what I want in my fellows, consultants or personal physician.
The USA ranks way down the list in not just cost control but in quality control.
Healthcare in the USA is a huge disaster. More effective lower cost alternatives exist but are suppressed in most cases. It should be better labelled THE SICKNESS INDUSTRY in the USA because corporate profits is the one main driving force. It's everything. Most doctors to get along have to go along with it too, to be able to afford their expectant high lifestyle which they feel is their right to have.
I believe some form of excellent Universal Healthcare could be achieved within the USA if we had the right elected representatives and President. Hiliray Clinton need not apply. We don't need another scam put on top an already existing scam.
ProfJohn
Lifer
- Jul 28, 2006
- 18,161
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In 2004 the entire Federal Budget was 2.272 Trillion dollars.
Universal Healthcase, as envisioned by most people, would have the government taking over healthcare. That means the Federal Budget would have to increase by whatever amount we are spending on healthcare as a nation. In otherwords the Federal budget would pretty much have to double.
Does anyone really want to see our Federal budget double? Also, in order to pay for all that we would have to raise money some how, more taxes in one form or another.
Most of the people who want Universal Healthcare seem to forget that there is no such thing as a free lunch.
http://www.nchc.org/facts/cost.shtml
From your link professor
'Experts agree that our health care system is riddled with inefficiencies, excessive administrative expenses, inflated prices, poor management, and inappropriate care, waste and fraud. These problems significantly increase the cost of medical care and health insurance for employers and workers and affect the security of families'
This is why Universal care is proposed but probably not a system like people are envisioning.
The best system in the world is France a hybrid public and private system. From everthing I've read it works best when you have a sole payer IE gov't and both public and private vie for the money and patients. It eleminates a lot of the accounting overhead and price fixing.
'Experts agree that our health care system is riddled with inefficiencies, excessive administrative expenses, inflated prices, poor management, and inappropriate care, waste and fraud. These problems significantly increase the cost of medical care and health insurance for employers and workers and affect the security of families'
This is why Universal care is proposed but probably not a system like people are envisioning.
The best system in the world is France a hybrid public and private system. From everthing I've read it works best when you have a sole payer IE gov't and both public and private vie for the money and patients. It eleminates a lot of the accounting overhead and price fixing.
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