We need Universal Healthcare.

[LEDominator]

I'd rather not have the government telling me what they will and won't pay for thanks

 

[senseamp]

US healthcare system is like levees in New Orleans. There is no political will to fix it until sh!t hits the fan. But when it does, things will happen and happen very fast, and probably not the best way.
Unless there is a reversal of healthcare inflation in the near future, companies won't be able to afford health insurance for employees and still be competitive with foreign companies whose healthcare costs are subsidized by governments. They will keep dropping insurance. And we will get into a cycle of pain, where fewer people have insurance, so companies raise premiums on the insured to compensate for losses from services to the uninsured, which in turn causes more people to not be able to afford insurance, and eventually the system breaks down.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: senseamp
US healthcare system is like levees in New Orleans. There is no political will to fix it until sh!t hits the fan. But when it does, things will happen and happen very fast, and probably not the best way.
Unless there is a reversal of healthcare inflation in the near future, companies won't be able to afford health insurance for employees and still be competitive with foreign companies whose healthcare costs are subsidized by governments. They will keep dropping insurance. And we will get into a cycle of pain, where fewer people have insurance, so companies raise premiums on the insured to compensate for losses from services to the uninsured, which in turn causes more people to not be able to afford insurance, and eventually the system breaks down.

Maybe but shifting the costs off the companies and onto individuals via taxation doesnt make it cheaper, it only shifts the costs. So instead of the companies paying for it through direct means, they pay for it through lower sales due to less disposable income by individuals.

What we need to do is work on fixing the costs of rising healthcare. I dont see how letting the govt take care of this decision will lower the costs. The cost of healthcare has been moving faster than the pace of inflation since the 1960's when the govt really got involved with paying for people's healthcare. I think the correlation is undeniable, govts already large hands have helped to sky rocket the cost of healthcare beyond the means of the middle class and small business.

 

[fitzov]

Originally posted by: LEDominator
I'd rather not have the government telling me what they will and won't pay for thanks

When does the revolution start?

 

[ProfJohn]

Originally posted by: desy
From your link professor
'Experts agree that our health care system is riddled with inefficiencies, excessive administrative expenses, inflated prices, poor management, and inappropriate care, waste and fraud. These problems significantly increase the cost of medical care and health insurance for employers and workers and affect the security of families'

This is why Universal care is proposed but probably not a system like people are envisioning.
The best system in the world is France a hybrid public and private system. From everthing I've read it works best when you have a sole payer IE gov't and both public and private vie for the money and patients. It eleminates a lot of the accounting overhead and price fixing.

Woohooo someone finally mentions the concept of sole payer. Although what we may need is a single payer system.
In the 50s, 60s, 70s when people were sick they went to the Doctor and usually paid for it themselves, there was no such thing as "health insurance" as we know it, but companies offered "hospitalization plans" meaning if you needed to visit the hospital they helped pay the cost.
At some point along the way we switched over to our current "health care insurance" system.
A major problem with this system is that to many people going to see a Doctor is basicly "free" or maybe a $5 co-pay. Since we no longer have to worry about paying to see the Doctor we don't worry about making the correct descisions as to whether we really need to see him or not, its free so lets go. This encourages the "health care system is riddled with inefficiencies, excessive administrative expenses, inflated prices, poor management, and inappropriate care, waste and fraud" problem that is really hurting our overall health care system.
Now I know that not everyone, and not even most people, are making visits to the Doctor they don't need to visit, but it only takes a few people to really run up the bills for everyone. And since your company healthcare costs are based on the overall spending of the company just a few people can drive up everyones premium.
In a single payer system your bear more of the cost yourself and are therefore more likely to make better choices about what treatments to take.

 

[LEDominator]

Originally posted by: fitzov

Originally posted by: LEDominator
I'd rather not have the government telling me what they will and won't pay for thanks

When does the revolution start?

Hopefully Never

 

[ProfJohn]

One thing I think we are all over looking in this debate.

Yes the cost of healthcare has gone up, but the level and quality of care has gone up as well. We have people living today who would have been dead just a few years ago.
We have treatments for AIDS and cancer that no one could have dreamed of 10 or 20 years ago.
Then we have all the technology improvements, CAT Scan, MRIs etc etc.

All these improvements have a cost, and that is one reason costs have gone up so much.

Because of all these great improements we are living longer. If spending 10% of our GDP on healthcare= average life of 65 years while spending 15%= 75 years which would you choose?

We still need to find ways to reduce the cost of healthcare, especially for the poorer people, but I thought I would point out the improvements in care this spend has brought us.

 

[Stunt]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Tango

Health care expenses > Total per capita by country (private+public)
#1 United States $4,631.00 per capita
#2 Switzerland $3,222.00 per capita
#3 Germany $2,748.00 per capita
#4 Iceland $2,608.00 per capita
#5 Canada $2,535.00 per capita
#6 Denmark $2,420.00 per capita
#7 France $2,349.00 per capita
#8 Belgium $2,268.00 per capita
#9 Norway $2,268.00 per capita
#10 Netherlands $2,246.00 per capita
#11 Australia $2,211.00 per capita
#12 Austria $2,162.00 per capita
#13 Italy $2,032.00 per capita
#14 Japan $2,011.00 per capita
#15 Ireland $1,953.00 per capita
#16 United Kingdom $1,764.00 per capita
#17 Finland $1,664.00 per capita
#18 New Zealand $1,623.00 per capita
#19 Spain $1,556.00 per capita

If you still want to be fool and claim the US has the best system in the world based on Nationalism go ahead. You should just know it's not true.

This one sums it up.

Rich you live, poor you die in the U.S.

This is the worst argument ever.

1) It uses Public & Private. In Canada many people would pay over and above the government provided services, but due to our laws people cannot. This doesn't make anyone better off.

2) If I ask how much your house cost and you say $100k and mine cost $300k does that mean yours is better because it is cheaper? Of course not. There are a broad range of health services and many different levels of quality. ex. Just because everyone can't afford a car, don't force everyone to take the bus and wait for it.

 

[Zebo]

Originally posted by: ProfJohn

Originally posted by: desy
From your link professor
'Experts agree that our health care system is riddled with inefficiencies, excessive administrative expenses, inflated prices, poor management, and inappropriate care, waste and fraud. These problems significantly increase the cost of medical care and health insurance for employers and workers and affect the security of families'

This is why Universal care is proposed but probably not a system like people are envisioning.
The best system in the world is France a hybrid public and private system. From everthing I've read it works best when you have a sole payer IE gov't and both public and private vie for the money and patients. It eleminates a lot of the accounting overhead and price fixing.

Woohooo someone finally mentions the concept of sole payer. Although what we may need is a single payer system.
In the 50s, 60s, 70s when people were sick they went to the Doctor and usually paid for it themselves, there was no such thing as "health insurance" as we know it, but companies offered "hospitalization plans" meaning if you needed to visit the hospital they helped pay the cost.
At some point along the way we switched over to our current "health care insurance" system.
A major problem with this system is that to many people going to see a Doctor is basicly "free" or maybe a $5 co-pay. Since we no longer have to worry about paying to see the Doctor we don't worry about making the correct descisions as to whether we really need to see him or not, its free so lets go. This encourages the "health care system is riddled with inefficiencies, excessive administrative expenses, inflated prices, poor management, and inappropriate care, waste and fraud" problem that is really hurting our overall health care system.
Now I know that not everyone, and not even most people, are making visits to the Doctor they don't need to visit, but it only takes a few people to really run up the bills for everyone. And since your company healthcare costs are based on the overall spending of the company just a few people can drive up everyones premium.
In a single payer system your bear more of the cost yourself and are therefore more likely to make better choices about what treatments to take.

Thats's what my dad said..paid cash and it was cheap too way back when... what happend was insurance combined with patient irresponsibility exploding costs. Some people like to claim malpractice is responsible, but fact is almost all states have rediculously low malpractice caps in place for years now and prices keep going up.

Insurance companies arnt the only middle man between you and your doctor. Among others...You have paperwork companies whose sole job is to complie hospital and doctors billing for the feds and insurance companies and vise versa. You have a huge staff at any doctors office most have nothing to do with heathcare but instead are billing specialists. All these are driving costs though roof.

And what do you get for it? Cancelled is a big one for self employed people who actually decide to use thier insurance. Need permission form the insurance overloads for almost everything. I have a PPO and doc needed permission for MRI. Doctors get paid less, especially fam practice ones. And finally hgiher costs..

Why did we move away from that cash system? I'll have to ask him that next time.

 

[senseamp]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: senseamp
US healthcare system is like levees in New Orleans. There is no political will to fix it until sh!t hits the fan. But when it does, things will happen and happen very fast, and probably not the best way.
Unless there is a reversal of healthcare inflation in the near future, companies won't be able to afford health insurance for employees and still be competitive with foreign companies whose healthcare costs are subsidized by governments. They will keep dropping insurance. And we will get into a cycle of pain, where fewer people have insurance, so companies raise premiums on the insured to compensate for losses from services to the uninsured, which in turn causes more people to not be able to afford insurance, and eventually the system breaks down.

Maybe but shifting the costs off the companies and onto individuals via taxation doesnt make it cheaper, it only shifts the costs. So instead of the companies paying for it through direct means, they pay for it through lower sales due to less disposable income by individuals.

The difference is that less disposable income by consumers hits both domestic manufacturers and foreign ones equally, while the current system puts domestic companies who pay for health insurance at a disadvantage compared to their foreign competition. So it's not a sustainable system in a global economy, where our companies have to compete with foreign ones. They either have to cut healthcare, or they will not be competitive in the long run.

What we need to do is work on fixing the costs of rising healthcare. I dont see how letting the govt take care of this decision will lower the costs. The cost of healthcare has been moving faster than the pace of inflation since the 1960's when the govt really got involved with paying for people's healthcare. I think the correlation is undeniable, govts already large hands have helped to sky rocket the cost of healthcare beyond the means of the middle class and small business.

Government involvement done wrong is worse than no government involvement. That is why I am very apprehensive about any sort of universal healthcare that might come out of the current political environment, where politicians are only worried about scoring cheap political points for next election and giving pork away to their favorite contributors.
On the other hand, other countries with universal healthcare not only have lower costs, but achieve better outcomes in terms of life expectancy. So it can be done right, but it isn't easy.

 

[Adfaw]

Originally posted by: Tsunami982
universal healthcare is like communism, good in theory but bad in practice. im from taiwan, where they have universal healthcare. pros: everyone can get dirt cheap hospital visits for common illnesses. cons: doctors get paid less therefore it is harder to retain good doctors that know they can get paid more by moving. there is a reason why a lot of people still come to america for surgery.

as for canada having better cancer survival rate... first... im inclined not to believe it so unless i see a study from a reputable journal i highly doubt it. second, if it is true, it could also be because our average american diet is horrible and not because of our healthcare system.

I have to agree with this post. I spent a year in Argentina where they have free healthcare. I don't think it's a good idea at all for america. People were crazy down there, because it was free they would go to the doctor for a simple cold or something. If they had a headache they'd go to the doctor. There were ALWAYS people at the hospital and it was crowded and the lines were huge, plus they only had stone age equipment because they didn't have the funding they need. I don't think free healthcare is a good idea at all. Capatilism is definitely the way to go for me. Although I do think something should be done if someone ends up having cancer and is going to die without treatment. I could probably understand universal healthcare for people in life threatening situations. Don't we have something like that?

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: Stunt

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Tango


This is the worst argument ever.

1) It uses Public & Private. In Canada many people would pay over and above the government provided services, but due to our laws people cannot. This doesn't make anyone better off.

2) If I ask how much your house cost and you say $100k and mine cost $300k does that mean yours is better because it is cheaper? Of course not. There are a broad range of health services and many different levels of quality. ex. Just because everyone can't afford a car, don't force everyone to take the bus and wait for it.

Watch the news. A story in BC just broke out about MRIs and patients paying for quicker service. The big "WTF" about it is that it is a Publicy Funded MRI in a Publicly funded hospital that is contracted out to a Private Clinic during "downtime". I have no problem with Private Clinics providing MRI services, but only if they have purchased the MRI machine and are not using Publicly Funded machines. I suspect this story will go national.